Do you crave the exotic?

[geezer]

I admit that I was originally attracted to the Chinese martial arts as a youngster in the 70s because of Bruce Lee, David Carradine (cringe) and the thrill of learning something exotic, mysterious, and almost magical. As I matured a bit, I took up WC, and then WT, and left behind my fascination with the "magical" side of the martial arts. To me, the appeal of WC/WT stems from its sophisticated yet practical approach. Yet, many still seem to be romantically seeking that old kung fu magic!

On another thread, one of our newer members, Observer, noted that their seem to be a lot of competing versions of WC?VT/WT around these days. He points out that in earlier times, only the best versions of a system would survive. I assume the reasoning is that in "the old days" inferior instructors would be challenged, and if they couldn't hack it, they'd close up shop. The implication was that nowadays, there are no consequences to reign in an inferior system. So people can make outrageous claims and get away with it.

Anyway, after thinking about this a bit, I recalled seeing an interview with a well known master (on youtube, I think), in which he described how Grandmaster Yip's Wing Chun became so popular in Hong Kong because the system really proved itself ...in countless streetfights. Other branches of WC were around, but almost unknown ...because they really were not as effective. And in those times, you had to put up, or shut up. But, these days, since anyone can make claims and not have to defend them, those formerly little known systems are becoming much more popular, capitalizing on this very obscurity. They appeal to our sense of mystery... our desire to find that hidden martial art that promises true secret knowledge. So, did this guy have a point? Is anybody out there looking for an obscure style of W??? in hopes of finding the shortcut to secret wisdom?

 

[Observer]

Hey Geezer, thanks for elaborating my point so well. I couldn't have said it better. The societies of today doesn't allow challenges and bouts, and people are more timid and civilized, I suppose.

An example I have observed with the Hong Kong scene: When Wong Shun Leung was alive, there were only an handful of his students progressing onto teaching openly and with his backing/consent. When he died, a whole bunch of people claiming to be his students opened up schools all over the world and teaching the "WSL Way".

Also another observation I've made with lesser known lineages of Wing Chun is that people are eager to make the next Big Discovery in Wing Chun. Hence they go searching for people in China who claimed to have learnt Wing Chun from Grandmaster so-and-so and hope to be the inheritant of that lineage and become the next in line to be Grandmaster (King) of their new discovery (land).

I heard a story once about Yip Man's eldest son Yip Chun and how he came to teach Wing Chun. As he had public announced he learnt a bit of Wing Chun when he was 7 and stopped because of a lack of interest. He resumed his training when he was 38 he when he came to Hong Kong from China to join his father. Now if he was 38, his father must be in his 70s and nearing his death. How much Wing Chun could he have learnt from his old man? How much Wing Chun would his si-hing's teach him after Yip Man's death? Anyway, the story I heard was that after his father death, westerners kept knocking at his door to learn Wing Chun. You can't go wrong can you - the eldest son of the great Yip Man much have inherited his father's knowledge! Well, he was honest and told them that he was not that good and turned them away. Thinking that this was just an excuse to not teach westerners, they offered him enough of something that he couldn't refuse - do$$ar. The rest is history between his relation with Leung Ting.

Is anybody out there looking for an obscure style of W??? in hopes of finding the shortcut to secret wisdom? You bet ya!

 

[geezer]

I heard a story once about Yip Man's eldest son Yip Chun and how he came to teach Wing Chun. As he had public announced he learnt a bit of Wing Chun when he was 7 and stopped because of a lack of interest. He resumed his training when he was 38 he when he came to Hong Kong from China to join his father. Now if he was 38, his father must be in his 70s and nearing his death. How much Wing Chun could he have learnt from his old man? How much Wing Chun would his si-hing's teach him after Yip Man's death?

I've heard similar kinds of statements made by people questioning Ip Chuns level of expertise. We Westerners sometimes assume that kung-fu mastery is inhereted. Sometimes it is passed down family lines, sometimes it isn't. I really don't know in this case. Still, I wish I'd had the opportunity to study with Ip Chun and find out for myself. My basic rule is "Never trust gossip... especially regarding WC/WT.

 

[AceHBK]

Anyway, after thinking about this a bit, I recalled seeing an interview with a well known master (on youtube, I think), in which he described how Grandmaster Yip's Wing Chun became so popular in Hong Kong because the system really proved itself ...in countless streetfights. Other branches of WC were around, but almost unknown ...because they really were not as effective. And in those times, you had to put up, or shut up. But, these days, since anyone can make claims and not have to defend them, those formerly little known systems are becoming much more popular, capitalizing on this very obscurity. They appeal to our sense of mystery... our desire to find that hidden martial art that promises true secret knowledge. So, did this guy have a point? Is anybody out there looking for an obscure style of W??? in hopes of finding the shortcut to secret wisdom?

GM Yoda shall be your new name. This is a great topic! Now hear comes a good debate on what we hear about WC & don't consider.

I find it utterly hard to believe that WC in it's birth city of Foshan & Guangdong is not as good as it is in HK. There are many non Yip Man lineages of WC but Yip Man has become famous do the Bruce Lee and WSL.

I see this as no different from 2 great athletes being from 1 small town and 1 happens to move to a big city and end sup gettin accolades and everything else. People not realizing that there is another person or even more who are just as good if not better in the little hometown where they came from who just didn't have the opportunity or maybe didn't have the desire. Let's not forget WC use to be a system where there was only 1 Master and 1 pupil. The fear of WC being learned by the wrong person was a big fear so that is why there was only 1 student and that was how it was passed down. Now of course that way of thinking has passed but for some Masters they may perform that act. They are not about the money or recognition, but rather preserving history.
Just think I am sure we all know someone we grew up with who had all the skills as the person who is a famous athlete now but they didn't have the same opportunity or maybe didn't have the desire to lead that kind of life or had a different set of prioties.

I would suspect if you went to Foshan and Guangdong you will find and hear stories of great WC masters who were known for their fighting skills and who have top notch students. You would have to be foolish to think Yip Man was the end all to be all for WC and he was the best and no other person was better. If you believe that then you are drinking the same Kool Aid that Jim Jones gave his followers.

The problem is that no one has went out to find out about the other branches of WC. You may see some clips on youtube but dismiss it and say "their structure looks wrong, they are doing this or that too hard, etc". In all fairness, that same person could be saying the same about you. Yip Man has somewhat become the Frank Sinatra of WC. "If it was good enough for Yip Man then it is good enough for me."

If you look at all the interal problem, bickering and down right distasteful acts of WC practitioners, they have come from the Yip Man lineage. They all don't agree and have adapted the system to how it fits them best and have claimed that "it is what Yip Man wanted".

I think that more time should be spent learning about the non Yip Man lineages to see how they are. Again, Yip Man became famous for leaving HK, teaching WC to groups of students and having 2 stand out students with 1 putting him and the system on the map. To easily dismiss any other lineage as not as good as Yip Man's b/c you "haven't heard stories" is crazy. We all know history is simply that, "His-Story".

WC Family Tree
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VinhXuanLineage.jpg

 

[Si-Je]

Very cool ya'll!
I'd love to learn other branches of Wing Chun, but am limited to what's in my area like many folks.
There's a new Wing Chun Meetup in our area and I thought that was a grand idea to get all different lineages and styles of WC/WT folks to come and meetup and share.
Unfortunately there isn't a huge diversity of Wing Chun in the Dallas area, but it's still a cool idea.

I would really love to learn a version of WC that's more from the temple teachings too, but have no idea how I could tell if a style was truely. But, maybe it doesn't matter so much as it matters it would be a different way do learn and apply wing chun.

 

[koenig]

Yes. I always wanted to learn the secret MA techniques that would make me invincible. I spent way too much time, effort, and money looking for them. The secret iron palm technique. The secret iron vest technique. The secret Chinese strength sets that would make one an invincible fighter.

I learned a lot, but most of it is radically inefficient compared to other, easier, simpler means *coughweightliftingcough* But at the time I was so gung ho to practice them because I thought in my head that I was deriving some huge benefit from doing this ancient secret training. I'd rearrange my life so I would have an uninterrupted hour each day to do whatever program/set/training I needed to do.

But now that I've spent years studying physiology, turns out I would have been much better off just learning weight lifting and doing bag work from the beginning. I want to time travel back and tell myself 10 years ago that "you won't get big and strong from doing an hour-long dynamic tension set, you can learn to take punches better from doing ab work and hitting yourself in the abs (building up gradually, of course) than from some 30 minute long qigong set, and doing fist conditioning is useless if your wrists aren't strong enough to hit a heavy bag with full force in the first place. Oh yeah, and save money on all those bottles of jow you bought since you won't be doing any of that hokey training anyway now, you won't need them."

At least I only wasted about 2 years of my life doing that. But damn, I craved the mysticism and secret knowledge so bad.

 

[qwksilver61]

Anyone ever take a peek into "Redboat Weng Chun?" looks pretty exotic to me,kinda cool....sort of like a Shaolin style Wing Tsun.

 

[geezer]

I would suspect if you went to Foshan and Guangdong you will find and hear stories of great WC masters who were known for their fighting skills and who have top notch students. You would have to be foolish to think Yip Man was the end all to be all for WC and he was the best and no other person was better.

Well, I am foolish, regardless of what I believe. That's a fact. Still, it's pretty clear that Grandmaster Yip was a man of unusual ability. And if it weren't for him, Wing Chun and all its variants would be just another obscure form of Southern Chinese boxing. Interestingly, my old sifu did travel back to Fatshan (Fo'shan) in the late 80s and 90s and met with a number of surviving Wing Chun masters. Some trained with Yip Man before he he went to Hong Kong. Others traced their roots a generation or two back to Ng Chun So, or Chan Wah Shun. And then there were the Weng Chun stylists, whose system is less directly related. At any rate, his impression was that there was real value in examining these related lineages, and he eventually made some minor changes to our forms based on this research. Still, in his opinion, Grandmaster Yip's stature and ability remained unequaled. And, for practical fighting skills, the Hong Kong version was exceptional. Now that's just one man's opinion, but an opinion that I felt carried some weight.

If you believe that then you are drinking the same Kool Aid that Jim Jones gave his followers.

No, you are wrong. My Kool-aid is better. Secret formula, and no cyanide!

If you look at all the internal problem, bickering and down right distasteful acts of WC practitioners, they have come from the Yip Man lineage. They all don't agree and have adapted the system to how it fits them best and have claimed that "it is what Yip Man wanted"...

Funny how the more closely related people are, the more they bicker over petty things. Same's true in religion. But really, its not just the Wing Chun folks. You'll find the same thing in all the martial arts. And typically, its the most closely connected styles that bad mouth each other the worst. I've seen it in other CMAs, also in Japanese, Korean and Filipino styles. Even with the sort of new-agey, peaceful versions of Aikido and Tai Chi. All peace, love and harmony, until you mention the competition. Sheesh!

 

[qwksilver61]

Mr.Geezer,Have you seen the Weng Chun stylists? Their first form appears to have certain elements of all the three forms.I found it quite fascinating.Also do any of you own the roots of Wing Tsun? In one of GM Tings books it mentions the Lim Lom or flying Monkey style as being similar.I personally consider Wing Tsun to be exotic as well as Dr John Painters Nine dragon Baghuazhang.Two very complete systems.Just chatter..........

 

[Beginner's Mind]

I wonder how many practitioners out there turned WC into a quest for the "true secret knowledge" and whether it's happening to me. My first Sifu, in particular, was a man who believed some mystical Qi will descend upon him like Holy Ghost and turn him into a Shaolin monk, only if he's faithful enough.

The poor guy had us fight against other styles, and couldn't for the life of him understand why we were getting crushed. He got very upset, then he dragged a BJJ and a Muay Thai guy to the club to show us how it's done, and proceeded to lose within seconds. Needles to say, the club fell apart like a house of cards.

 

[AceHBK]

I wonder how many practitioners out there turned WC into a quest for the "true secret knowledge" and whether it's happening to me. My first Sifu, in particular, was a man who believed some mystical Qi will descend upon him like Holy Ghost and turn him into a Shaolin monk, only if he's faithful enough.

The poor guy had us fight against other styles, and couldn't for the life of him understand why we were getting crushed. He got very upset, then he dragged a BJJ and a Muay Thai guy to the club to show us how it's done, and proceeded to lose within seconds. Needles to say, the club fell apart like a house of cards.

I can't help but to laugh at that.

:rofl:

 

[AceHBK]

You know, I see why WC people are so egotistical.

The myth is that the style was created to defeat all of the other shaolin systems. I mean that right there alone would have people who practice that art think that they can't be beat and any other style is pointless.

I mean that alone is what seems exotic and is probably why many people take up WC outside of them trying to follow in Bruce Lee's footsteps.

 

[geezer]

Mr.Geezer,Have you seen the Weng Chun stylists? Their first form appears to have certain elements of all the three forms.I found it quite fascinating.Also do any of you own the roots of Wing Tsun?

I consider LT's Roots... to be an excellent source of information... although I don't buy into all of his conclusions. Still, the photgraphic documentation of forms by various Mainland lineages alone is worth some study. And any WT stylist would be interested in LT's explanations of how some of his discoveries lead him to modify and add certain movements to the forms, in order to "restore" them.

As far as the Weng Chun system, LT seems to feel that it may indeed have a separate origin from the main line of descent of Wing Chun in Fatshan, but that the two styles intermingled and may have exchanged many techniques. Who knows. I still really doubt the literal veracity of any of the WC/WT origin myths before the time of Leung Jan in the early 19th Century. And, I've never had the pleasure of meeting a practioner of the Weng Chun system... or even seeing any videos. And, the fact of the matter is, I'm not smart enough to get much out of looking at still picture sequences in a book. Oh well....

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

And, I've never had the pleasure of meeting a practioner of the Weng Chun system... or even seeing any videos. And, the fact of the matter is, I'm not smart enough to get much out of looking at still picture sequences in a book. Oh well....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp44PbhbIuU&feature=related

Sifu Hoffman against someone from Ip Man lineage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRJkfAAoG7A&feature=related (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbeEINrjjRY&feature=related (part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X158KAt_t4s&feature=related (part 3)

Yes, there seem to be very little videos about Weng Chun on the net. This are some I could find. Indeed those who are interested in a more exotic version of WC would probably enjoy training this.

http://www.weng-chun.com/index_d.htm

Be sure to check out the article on the origin of WC under the history section.

 

[qwksilver61]

My favorite "Weng chun inspiration from Maria" That chick is bad! You can definitely see the Shaolin,also the dummy work is agressive.Geezer,I hope you get a chance to take a look.

 

[geezer]

You know, I see why WC people are so egotistical.

The myth is that the style was created to defeat all of the other shaolin systems. I mean that right there alone would have people who practice that art think that they can't be beat and any other style is pointless.

I mean that alone is what seems exotic and is probably why many people take up WC outside of them trying to follow in Bruce Lee's footsteps.

C'mon now Ace, what system doesn't claim to be "superior". I started out in a (supposedly) Shaolin style. The Shifu stated (erroneously) that Shaolin was the source of all Asian fighting arts, and that Karate was just simplified "kung-fu for children". I later sought out other Chinese arts and met a Choy Lay Fut Sifu who explained that his system was based on "five elements" and that there was an old CLF saying that translated something like this, "With these five (CLF) elements, Shaolin is sh....t!" Finally I stumbled accross WC and that eventually lead me to my WT sifu. At that time he was humbly known as "Master of Comprehension". I really haven't kept up since I left his organization ...but I believe you said that it is now something like "Great Grandmaster of Almightyness". I don't see what's so egotistical about that? But seriously, if you are looking for an honest, humble Mr. Miyagi type, you have your work cut out for you!

 

[AceHBK]

C'mon now Ace, what system doesn't claim to be "superior". I started out in a (supposedly) Shaolin style. The Shifu stated (erroneously) that Shaolin was the source of all Asian fighting arts, and that Karate was just simplified "kung-fu for children". I later sought out other Chinese arts and met a Choy Lay Fut Sifu who explained that his system was based on "five elements" and that there was an old CLF saying that translated something like this, "With these five (CLF) elements, Shaolin is sh....t!" Finally I stumbled accross WC and that eventually lead me to my WT sifu. At that time he was humbly known as "Master of Comprehension". I really haven't kept up since I left his organization ...but I believe you said that it is now something like "Great Grandmaster of Almightyness". I don't see what's so egotistical about that? But seriously, if you are looking for an honest, humble Mr. Miyagi type, you have your work cut out for you!

LOL. That is very true, I stand corrected. You have to admit you do have to love the legend that comes with WC though.
I think every master feels that way, some say it while the smart one's decide to keep it to themselves.