M
MisterMike
Guest
..or do R movies?
.. or anything we watch?
... do Martial Arts???
(this oughtta be fun)
.. or anything we watch?
... do Martial Arts???
(this oughtta be fun)
Yes, they all do.
And so do parents, and religion and books and ..., .
Yet the whole list could be argued to provide either postive examples or outlets to avoid violence unacceptable by society.
(* And I am waiting for other peoples opinions as well *)
:asian:
And so do parents, and religion and books and ..., .
Yet the whole list could be argued to provide either postive examples or outlets to avoid violence unacceptable by society.
(* And I am waiting for other peoples opinions as well *)
:asian:
Not anymore then the evening news...
If a video game pushes a youngster to commit acts of violence, then something was there to spawn the act beforehand. A good kid doesn't suddenly become violent for the mere fact of playing Counterstrike.
If parents and society as a whole would get their head out of their bums about the problems with our kids, instead of finding a scapegoat with a controller and an A/C adapter, we might not be so bad off. Movies, Music, TV, Video Games. How often do you hear chanting of REALITY based issues like parental guidance? I, for one, get pretty tired of the foo-foo brush offs that people use to dodge the fact that they aren't good parents.
It honestly seems that the shift of good values and morals seems to be heading towards the bad side. It's easier nowdays to plop kids in front of video games and use that as a babysitter. Kids learn from their environment. If that environment is nothing but Movies, TV, Video Games and the like, then someone isn't doing their job as a parent very well.
I contribute a great deal of the problems with parents today as just plain and simple laziness. It's too much effort when we're exhausted from a 12 hour work day to go out back and play kickball with my daughter....(thick sarcasm) In the generation above mine, for the most part, parents were more focused on their children then themselves. Thankfully, these are the values that were instilled in me and most of the people I know...and we continue to pass them on. It seems like starting with Gen-X (mine), it started to decline. Parents put their own comforts and hobbies above those of their children.
Everytime I go shopping at the mall here, it makes me want to pull my hair out. A woman can be shopping and her four kids are running around, frothing at the mouth like rabid banshees. She doesn't bat an eye. Or watching as a little four-year old boy is trailing behind "Mom" (used loosely) 30 feet or so and the "parent" is oblivious to time and space....except the next shop she needs to duck into.
People need to get off of their asses and be parents. If it's too much time, effort or work...imagine how much time, effort and work is going to be involved when the child grows up and becomes a contributing member of society.
My 2 cents...
If a video game pushes a youngster to commit acts of violence, then something was there to spawn the act beforehand. A good kid doesn't suddenly become violent for the mere fact of playing Counterstrike.
If parents and society as a whole would get their head out of their bums about the problems with our kids, instead of finding a scapegoat with a controller and an A/C adapter, we might not be so bad off. Movies, Music, TV, Video Games. How often do you hear chanting of REALITY based issues like parental guidance? I, for one, get pretty tired of the foo-foo brush offs that people use to dodge the fact that they aren't good parents.
It honestly seems that the shift of good values and morals seems to be heading towards the bad side. It's easier nowdays to plop kids in front of video games and use that as a babysitter. Kids learn from their environment. If that environment is nothing but Movies, TV, Video Games and the like, then someone isn't doing their job as a parent very well.
I contribute a great deal of the problems with parents today as just plain and simple laziness. It's too much effort when we're exhausted from a 12 hour work day to go out back and play kickball with my daughter....(thick sarcasm) In the generation above mine, for the most part, parents were more focused on their children then themselves. Thankfully, these are the values that were instilled in me and most of the people I know...and we continue to pass them on. It seems like starting with Gen-X (mine), it started to decline. Parents put their own comforts and hobbies above those of their children.
Everytime I go shopping at the mall here, it makes me want to pull my hair out. A woman can be shopping and her four kids are running around, frothing at the mouth like rabid banshees. She doesn't bat an eye. Or watching as a little four-year old boy is trailing behind "Mom" (used loosely) 30 feet or so and the "parent" is oblivious to time and space....except the next shop she needs to duck into.
People need to get off of their asses and be parents. If it's too much time, effort or work...imagine how much time, effort and work is going to be involved when the child grows up and becomes a contributing member of society.
My 2 cents...
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
A few years back many people were talking about the game "Doom" and how the Columbine shooters were playing the game prior to their shooting spree. The game had pipe bombs. They had pipe bombs. The game had shotguns. They had shotguns. The game had Plasma Rifles. They had...uh...shotguns.
Well...I suspect some of the victims played the game, too. I know perhaps a dozen kids who played the game at the time. How MANY games of "Doom" sold? Hundreds of thousands? A million or more? The kids I know all turned out okay.
Where are all the killers?
In the thread titled "Does pornography cause rape?" others agreed with me that such a thing does NOT cause violence. Nor does rock music, martial arts training, video games, movies, "playing army" as a child, joining the military* or owning a gun.
Violent people are caused by a host of factors...bad parenting, neglect, genetics (yes...genetics...again I bring that up), substance abuse, stress, stress, and more stress.
Society looks for a an unblemished lamb upon which to cast our sins, and then we hope to turn it loose into the wilderness. We can't accept (or understand) the complexities of the causes of violence...so we look for something to blame.
Point of fact...violent crime is at ONE FOURTH of what it was in 1973. Its in the DOJ statistics. Back in 1973 we didn't have video games. We had bad hairstyles, atrocious clothes, platform shoes, and some of the worst pop music to ever hit the charts.
Personally, I think Osmonds are to blame for the violence of those days. David Cassidy as well.
Let them be my sacrifical lambs. At least for the moment.
Regards,
Steve Scott
*The Rambo syndrome. Back in the day we heard how Lee Harvey Oswald and Charles Whitman (The Texas Tower sniper) were ex-Marines. The press beat that to death.
Well...I suspect some of the victims played the game, too. I know perhaps a dozen kids who played the game at the time. How MANY games of "Doom" sold? Hundreds of thousands? A million or more? The kids I know all turned out okay.
Where are all the killers?
In the thread titled "Does pornography cause rape?" others agreed with me that such a thing does NOT cause violence. Nor does rock music, martial arts training, video games, movies, "playing army" as a child, joining the military* or owning a gun.
Violent people are caused by a host of factors...bad parenting, neglect, genetics (yes...genetics...again I bring that up), substance abuse, stress, stress, and more stress.
Society looks for a an unblemished lamb upon which to cast our sins, and then we hope to turn it loose into the wilderness. We can't accept (or understand) the complexities of the causes of violence...so we look for something to blame.
Point of fact...violent crime is at ONE FOURTH of what it was in 1973. Its in the DOJ statistics. Back in 1973 we didn't have video games. We had bad hairstyles, atrocious clothes, platform shoes, and some of the worst pop music to ever hit the charts.
Personally, I think Osmonds are to blame for the violence of those days. David Cassidy as well.
Let them be my sacrifical lambs. At least for the moment.
Regards,
Steve Scott
*The Rambo syndrome. Back in the day we heard how Lee Harvey Oswald and Charles Whitman (The Texas Tower sniper) were ex-Marines. The press beat that to death.
OP
MisterMike
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #5
Good posts. I have to agree. It kills me to see these lawsuits come up on Game companies. Who let the kids get the game in the first place??
Fightfan00
Orange Belt
Personally I think that a lot of things contribute as a whole to vilence not just one thing.Things like famliy enviornments,the news,video games, friends.
Video games, movies, music are all scapegoats for the inherent laziness of many parents. However, there are many more parents who find themselves hitting a brick wall when it comes to instilling the discipline needed to get their kids to adulthood as functioning members of society. When I was a kid I KNEW that my parents had the freedom to punish me as they saw fit. This country has a definite tendency to "go overboard" on legislation. I used to get a good whack on the backside for screwing up, my kids still do (but not nearly as often as I did) and they stay out of trouble. I can remember being blown away by seeing the child of a neighbor (about 10 years ago) stand in front of their parent, hands on hips and scream "You can't spank me or I'll call social services on you!!" This kid was only about 11 but had had it so ingrained in their head that there were government agencies that would step in to make their parents stop "trying to tell them what to do" that the parent had lost any authority that they might have other wise had. Now, obviously, the child would not have been removed simply because they had been spanked once for something but the threat of having "The Gov't" snooping around in every nook and cranny of their lives was enough to give the child WAY too much leverage. So, IMO, while laziness on the part of the parents is a part of the problem impotence on the part of the parent is just as big a part of the problem. If a child is raised believing that they do not have to take responsibility for their actions then the boundaries of acceptable behavior are bound to be stepped across.
A few things on Children.
If the parents do the right thing early on the child will understnad rigt from wrong. It is when you laugh at it because it is funny for the little kid to do something, and then as (s)he grows older they do not understand the difference.
As to a lesson to an underage child. There was this smart mouth 14 year old. Teen Hang out. I was a teen then also, although 18 or older. So, he hit me and said I could do nothing about it. I told him to never do that again. LAter that night he came up and hit me again and then said I could do nothign about it. I reached out and pinned him the the wall with one arm. I then explained that no one was going to come for his help. I even yelled for help for him. I called for the police. The police station being about 300 yards away behind me and the building I was pinning him too. I then proceeded to explain to him that I was going to beat him up, and when he brought the police I would jsut tell them he had been hitting people all night and someone must have hit him back. Not me officer. No way. So, I asked him where is the law now to protect him? He started to cry. I asked him if he thought being a little kid was going to save him? He said he was sorry and asked with Please Can I go home. I let go of him and told him to go use the bathroom to clean himself up and then to go home and think about what he had done.
I never had a problem with him again. Yes, it was illegal for me to touch him. Yet, at the time I thought it was best for him to learn about the real world. And later yes I did have a problem from this when the police investigated the miss handleing of children. Yet, after the investigation, no one pressed charges including the police. There are always ramafications to what you do.
People should understand that there is such a thing as taking responsibility for their actions. Including parenting.
:asian:
If the parents do the right thing early on the child will understnad rigt from wrong. It is when you laugh at it because it is funny for the little kid to do something, and then as (s)he grows older they do not understand the difference.
As to a lesson to an underage child. There was this smart mouth 14 year old. Teen Hang out. I was a teen then also, although 18 or older. So, he hit me and said I could do nothing about it. I told him to never do that again. LAter that night he came up and hit me again and then said I could do nothign about it. I reached out and pinned him the the wall with one arm. I then explained that no one was going to come for his help. I even yelled for help for him. I called for the police. The police station being about 300 yards away behind me and the building I was pinning him too. I then proceeded to explain to him that I was going to beat him up, and when he brought the police I would jsut tell them he had been hitting people all night and someone must have hit him back. Not me officer. No way. So, I asked him where is the law now to protect him? He started to cry. I asked him if he thought being a little kid was going to save him? He said he was sorry and asked with Please Can I go home. I let go of him and told him to go use the bathroom to clean himself up and then to go home and think about what he had done.
I never had a problem with him again. Yes, it was illegal for me to touch him. Yet, at the time I thought it was best for him to learn about the real world. And later yes I did have a problem from this when the police investigated the miss handleing of children. Yet, after the investigation, no one pressed charges including the police. There are always ramafications to what you do.
People should understand that there is such a thing as taking responsibility for their actions. Including parenting.
:asian:
I couldn't agree more. I take responsibility for every action that I do as a parent as well as responsibility for at least a level of what my children do. The boy in your post is a prime example of what I was speaking of in my last post.... a child who has learned that the system is geared to an almost Spanish Inquisition level against the parent/adult in most situations. Knowing this, many children are very able to manipulate their parent/guardian/whoever by simply threatening "intervention" by the now "all powerful" DSS. Granted, the DSS has very strict guidelines which they must follow but many parents are either ignorant of the law or simply overawed at the idea of taking on a governmental institution as a result of trying to raise their children. Me, I've had DSS in the house as a result of a custody battle with my ex-wife (got a glowing report thank you). I am strict but fair and attempt to instill the same ideology in my children that I carry myself. Yes, take responsibility for your actions whatever they may be, but remember that a bit of trouble for you now can save a lifetime of trouble for your kids. Next time a child pulls the "I'll call DSS" stunt on ya, punish them as you normally would and then hand them the phone. Maybe it's time we took the governing of the house back from the kids.:soapbox:
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
I agree there is a LOT of lazy parenting out there.
However I don't necessarily think that discipline in the home has gone down in the last thirty years as some political pundits and relgious leaders might suggest...we don't have a ruler to measure discipline's decline over the decades, and blaming society's ills on this one facet of family life is problematic. I recall parents in the sixties blaming lazy parenting for the social ills of that decade and the one after it.
Back to the topic, though...it was suggested that video games, et al. are the "violence scapegoat" for lazy parents who do not discipline their children. In other words lazy parents blame societies ills on these forms of entertainment.
Perhaps, but some of the most disciplined (and disciplining) parents I know list videos and the rest as a cause. Two of my black belts (one inactive in MA, the other current) are Baptist ministers and not at all reluctant to spank. I should mention that I don't believe they're abusive. They, like the lazy parents, list videos, rock music, and the like as prime sources of violence in our children.
Lack of discipline can be a cause of violence when combined with other forms of neglect. If the parents love the child without "tough love", we get a spoiled little t**d along the lines of the one Rich encountered and like the one Letch mentioned. If the we also see lack of any form of affection, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, neglect of basic physical needs (proper nutrition, clothing, hygiene) we then start to see an "at risk" kid.
If we see physical abuse..."discipline" taken to a horrible extreme, then we start to see a truly warped child.
There is a positive correlation between violence in the home and violent behavior in children. Studies confirm this, but most of us instinctivly know it. Here we are not talking about the crack across the butt with a hand when we encounter disrespect or "in your face defiance". Physical and emotional abuse can not mask itself as discipline in any form, and clearly crosses all lines of social propriety.
Parents, some of them wounded products of these violent homes, often display a "knee-jerk" response to this syndrome and react by not physically disciplining their own children at all. They avoid this for fear they may do as their own parents did. They think some inner monster will arise and unshackle decent restraint, thereby sucking them into the cycle of violence they were caught in as a youngster.
Sometimes their fears are justified, and restraining their hand may be what is called for...particularly when they struggle daily with the boiling anger that is their legacy.
Regards,
Steve
However I don't necessarily think that discipline in the home has gone down in the last thirty years as some political pundits and relgious leaders might suggest...we don't have a ruler to measure discipline's decline over the decades, and blaming society's ills on this one facet of family life is problematic. I recall parents in the sixties blaming lazy parenting for the social ills of that decade and the one after it.
Back to the topic, though...it was suggested that video games, et al. are the "violence scapegoat" for lazy parents who do not discipline their children. In other words lazy parents blame societies ills on these forms of entertainment.
Perhaps, but some of the most disciplined (and disciplining) parents I know list videos and the rest as a cause. Two of my black belts (one inactive in MA, the other current) are Baptist ministers and not at all reluctant to spank. I should mention that I don't believe they're abusive. They, like the lazy parents, list videos, rock music, and the like as prime sources of violence in our children.
Lack of discipline can be a cause of violence when combined with other forms of neglect. If the parents love the child without "tough love", we get a spoiled little t**d along the lines of the one Rich encountered and like the one Letch mentioned. If the we also see lack of any form of affection, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, neglect of basic physical needs (proper nutrition, clothing, hygiene) we then start to see an "at risk" kid.
If we see physical abuse..."discipline" taken to a horrible extreme, then we start to see a truly warped child.
There is a positive correlation between violence in the home and violent behavior in children. Studies confirm this, but most of us instinctivly know it. Here we are not talking about the crack across the butt with a hand when we encounter disrespect or "in your face defiance". Physical and emotional abuse can not mask itself as discipline in any form, and clearly crosses all lines of social propriety.
Parents, some of them wounded products of these violent homes, often display a "knee-jerk" response to this syndrome and react by not physically disciplining their own children at all. They avoid this for fear they may do as their own parents did. They think some inner monster will arise and unshackle decent restraint, thereby sucking them into the cycle of violence they were caught in as a youngster.
Sometimes their fears are justified, and restraining their hand may be what is called for...particularly when they struggle daily with the boiling anger that is their legacy.
Regards,
Steve
We live in a violent society. More violent then any industrialized nation on earth. Our neighbors to the north have a 20th the amount of violence, measurable in the amount of crime. The problem is our society. The problem is the every-man-for-themselves attitude. Who wouldn't want to kill after being exposed to that for a lifetime. I think we need to look at what other countries are doing. Hell, we have more people in prison then the 10 most industrialized countries combined!
Upnorthkyosa
Upnorthkyosa
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
As to lack of discipline in youngsters, Letch and Rich might like this:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...hers+get+no+respect+as+student+rudeness+rises
Regards,
Steve
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...hers+get+no+respect+as+student+rudeness+rises
Regards,
Steve
Yes, I agree the lack of respect is a problem. I think that the school's hands are tied by too much legislation.
When I have had rowdy cousins or nephews or such, I find that finger locks work well,Yet this would not fly in a school setting.
I also had some friends leave their child with me. He was not playing baseball well with the other kids in the back field. I asked him to play right, and stop changing the rules
. Then told him he had to play nice. Still being rude and talking back. I took him back up to the townhouse and talked to him. TO told him he could continue and I would then spank him and he woudl go inside. Or he could go back out play nice and by the rules. His reply was that his parents do not spank him I replied, that his parents knew that I believed in spanking. And they might never let him stay with me again. Yet, either way he was going to get the spanking and then his parents and I could deal with it later. He believed me and played well with the others.
Yet, this was a few years ago, even today talk like this would get someone into trouble in the right situations. Yet, DSS in some cases will not take children away from horrible situations.
Not sure how to fix, only that it is bad right now.
:asian:
When I have had rowdy cousins or nephews or such, I find that finger locks work well,Yet this would not fly in a school setting.
I also had some friends leave their child with me. He was not playing baseball well with the other kids in the back field. I asked him to play right, and stop changing the rules
. Then told him he had to play nice. Still being rude and talking back. I took him back up to the townhouse and talked to him. TO told him he could continue and I would then spank him and he woudl go inside. Or he could go back out play nice and by the rules. His reply was that his parents do not spank him I replied, that his parents knew that I believed in spanking. And they might never let him stay with me again. Yet, either way he was going to get the spanking and then his parents and I could deal with it later. He believed me and played well with the others.Yet, this was a few years ago, even today talk like this would get someone into trouble in the right situations. Yet, DSS in some cases will not take children away from horrible situations.
Not sure how to fix, only that it is bad right now.
:asian:
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
It is difficult to compare crime statistics from one nation to another due to the different statistical definitions present in each country. New Zealand, for example, does not include sexual assault in its crime stats. The U.S. does. Some countries count the number of offenses, others the numbers of victims. Each country has different rules when counting multiple offenses of a single offender.
For more information, see:
http://www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/reports/2002/intl-comparisons-crime/section-2.html
Me. Rich. Letch. I assume you.
The sociopathy you describe isn't nurtured so easily, as I've indicated.
I believe that our society isn't as selfish as you suggest. Witness the outpouring of sympathy for 9-11 victims, the courageous behavior of individuals involved in that horror, and subsequent heroic actions on the part of our service personnel. If such social consciousness and expression of duty is anamolous, then I leave it to others to prove it to my satisfaction. I will remain optimistic until then.
Regards,
Steve Scott
Gavin DeBecker writes about this very subject in "The Gift of Fear." We all have violent and criminal thoughts, because we are all not too different from the criminals. The difference is when we act on those thoughts. Why is a question that we could argue for a long long time.
"Where the thoughts come from?" is another good question. Our society is filled with violence. We are surrounded by it. By age 18 our children have witnessed thousands of "fake" murders and other crimes. I think we can safely say that our society plants these thoughts in our children.
But, again, what is the difference between us and other countries? Even if we take into account the way they count thier statistics, there is a correlation that goes far beyond the norms of statistical significance. The US is the most violent of all industrialized nations. Why?
In my home state we have numerous communities that straddle the border with Canada. On one side people lock their doors at night because of the fear of crime. On the other, they don't worry about it. What is the difference?
upnorthkyosa
"Where the thoughts come from?" is another good question. Our society is filled with violence. We are surrounded by it. By age 18 our children have witnessed thousands of "fake" murders and other crimes. I think we can safely say that our society plants these thoughts in our children.
But, again, what is the difference between us and other countries? Even if we take into account the way they count thier statistics, there is a correlation that goes far beyond the norms of statistical significance. The US is the most violent of all industrialized nations. Why?
In my home state we have numerous communities that straddle the border with Canada. On one side people lock their doors at night because of the fear of crime. On the other, they don't worry about it. What is the difference?
upnorthkyosa
Justification of Force in Arizona
DSS is an absolute crock (here anyway). As some of you know, I live in Phoenix. DSS spends it's time and workload investigating parents that talk "stern" to their kids, while savage acts are being done in other households. The governor here has finally put her foot down and is bringing investigations up against DSS to better things. In the past few months, child abuse of horrific ways have come to light...and DSS had had these same case files for years, yet nothing was done after 8-12 complaints against the parents.
Try Giving Excuses to Dead Children
Arizona Child Abuse Statistics
The school system here (Roanoke county Virginia) emplemented what it calls "Character Counts" education a few years ago. When walking through the schools (elementary through high) you'll see posters pointing out things that are generally considered good character traits. These are the same things that my children have had instilled in them from day one. Yes, kids see a great deal of violence on film or in video games, hell, they see a lot of it on the street. That doesn't mean that each of them will act upon thoughts that may be implanted by seeing these things. All of us still have an instinct somewhere deep inside us to kill. I don't care how much you deny it, it IS there. It just depends on what level of control you've been given through education. That education begins with your parents/authority figures and continues through out your life with the people that you choose as role models.
Say what you want buy I have to agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Americans are the most giving group of people on the planet. Some will say that we have more therefore we should give more. That fits with good character, and for the most part, America has it. The generousity doesn't stop at our own borders either. Yes, we've a real problem with violence in this country and the perpetrators of the violence are much younger than they were 20 years ago. I don't believe there is any one cause nor any sure cure for it. All we can do, folks, is care for our own home and family and offer support to others who are attempting to do the same.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
This sort of thing can help reinforce what healthy kids have been taught at home...for others, it introduces them to social concepts not taught at home. For some kids this can make a difference. For others, it will not.
The boy that lives with us (actually now in college) was raised in an abusive home until he was fifteen. He moved in with us after a brief court battle.
Social interaction with good kids in the martial arts, church groups, and at school showed him what good parents were like. He was easily able to contrast that with what he was living with. It helped save him from "the Dark Side". He still struggles with issues, but he knows the difference between right and wrong.
For some kids, this doesn't work. Each child is unique. My wife's nephew, raised by his grandparents, turned out a spoiled little brat. He's a compulsive liar, manipulative, and lazy. There was no abuse in his home...but no discipline.
We call DSS here CPS (Child Protective Services). Many of the same criticisms you all voice are justly leveled at this department as well. About the only good it does reporting to them is it alleviates the burden of the law's requirement to do so. In Indiana, anybody witnessing or hearing of abuse is required to report it.
-----------------
Back to violence...Most of us DO have violent thoughts. But, as has been mentioned, no thought or impulse is necessarily evil...it is the act that is or isn't.
Are we bombarded by violent images daily? Certainly. So are people all over the world. Actions films, R rated movies, video games are not unique to our culture. The Japanese play these games with great zeal...as do the Germans, Brits, French. Their violence rates have not escalated. Some might say its because they lack guns...but violence has other ways of expressing itself.
Regards,
Steve Scott
OP
rmcrobertson
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #19
By the way, the reasons that organizations like Child Protective services don't work is the systematic gutting of their budgets after years of lower and lower tax revenues, so that their case workers end up grossly overburdened with cases.
Much of what happens is what's called, "unfunded mandates:" the State says you MUST do a thing, but apportions no money for it. So...
And Americans are really more generous than anybody else? Huh.
My understanding is that we give less of our GNP than any other country, certinly far less than the Scandinavian countries. But maybe I've got this wrong...
Much of what happens is what's called, "unfunded mandates:" the State says you MUST do a thing, but apportions no money for it. So...
And Americans are really more generous than anybody else? Huh.
My understanding is that we give less of our GNP than any other country, certinly far less than the Scandinavian countries. But maybe I've got this wrong...
I won't disagree with this at all. It's very much the same here...however...why pretend to have an IRS when they don't collect taxes?
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