Ditang/ ground techniques

[Jin Gang]

I posted this on another forum as well, but I'd like to see if anyone here would like to contribute to this topic .

I would like to start a thread discussing the methods and applications of the ground techniques of various styles.
I know ditang quan is a style in its own right, but many styles include ground techniques as a part of their curriculum.
Do most traditional styles include some form of tumbling in their basic skillset?

How does your style develop these skills? Do students begin learning to fall and roll (and get up again) from the very beginning of training? It seems like such skills ought to be fundamental to any marial arts curriculum.

Do you learn "breakfalls" by slapping the ground as you land, or use some other method?
Does your style utilize strikes performed from a prone position? kneeling, squatting, or otherwise extremely low to the ground? What types of strikes are trained, and is any wrestling/grappling included in these techniques?

Techniques I am familiar with include rolling to escape a grab or get out of range, rolling to quickly get into close range for grabbing or strikes, rolling while grappling, like grabbing and pulling someone's legs out from under them.
Falling as a way of evading and striking at the same time, falling and dragging someone down with you, falling on an already downed opponent. kicking the legs or groin from a prone position, sweeping from prone position, reaching up from a prone position to drag someone down.

Do you ever incorporate techniques like this into sparring/free fighting, or is it just something you do in forms that are never applied?

From many people, we hear "you should never go to the ground willingly". While I understand the sentiment, how did styles like monkey and drunken (which heavily rely on unorthodox attacks, including falling and attacks from the ground), get a reputation for being good? If they really aren't any good, why did they spread and become as famous as they are?

A young student "Joe" who trained in my school relayed an experience he had: His PE class in school offered a kickboxing/"karate" course. Having some experience in martial arts, he was allowed to spar with other kids who also had experience. His opponent was a big kid who came charging at him with fists flailing, and "Joe" performed a drop kick like he had learned in one of our crane forms, hitting his opponent in the chest or stomach and knocking the wind out of him. He got up and helped up his opponent who was clutching his stomach. The coach then proceded to scold "Joe", saying "You should never go to the ground". Joe just shrugged his shoulders, feeling that his dropping technique seemed to have been quite effective.
Perhaps such a technique isn't a good idea against a very experienced opponent, and certainly not when surrounded by opponents, but it seems to be applicable in some situations. The element of surprise can easily tip the scales in your favor, and buy you the few split-seconds you need to gain complete advantage. Sometimes you end up prone on the ground unintentionally, and it is good to be able to threaten your opponent from that position and have the skill to turn a fall into an attack.

What are your thoughts? What importance is placed on ditang/ground techniques in your style?

 

[Changhfy]

Hey JinGang-->(Jin Gang Quan/one of my favorite sets!)

In my experience its absolutely essential to have some form of ground work.
In Shaolin we call this Heaven/Human/Earth-Tien/Yan/Dei.
You break each of these down into the 4 ranges of combat including
Tek/Da/Suai/Na-Kick/Hit/Throw/Lock.

Without each of these you really dont have a complete system. Of course the methods for training each of these may be different in concept and application.

For our classes we start the students out with basic awareness of each range which includes learning how to breakfall properly.

Then later as the student gets more proficient we teach the student the mechanics behind each range and the concepts used.

So for application we teach the student starting from the Shaolin wisdoms.
Sik(techniques/tools)- Ying(shape/mechanics)- Yi(concepts)- Lei(principles) etc...


take care

 

[Jin Gang]

That sounds like solid principle. Would you like to be more specific about the types of ground techniques in the styles you practice? What are the particular methods and applications you have? Do you have any forms where you intentionally fall, roll, or go really low to the ground to perform attacks?
I have seen a mantis form which includes a drop kick, backward rolling throw, and hand attacks from the ground...did your seven star school have any like these?

 

[Changhfy]

Hey Jin Gang,

The ground techniques that we use include:
Typical mount, side mount, guard, half guard, etc... This is what we call earth.

Besides these we also work from the clench:
Such as the neck clench, single leg and double leg takedowns.

We use Qin Na and Fan Qin Na. (takedowns and anti takedowns-lowering the center of gravity to match the opponents)

Before anyone comments this seems typical modern MMA methods, but in reality this type of groundwork has been in existance hundreds of years before MMA came on the scene. You see alot of this typical to Shuai Jiao and even Qi Xing Tong Long has some groundwork as well.

We also utilize alot of the Shaolin Qin Na Faat for each of the ranges.

We teach the student based on mechanics as opposed to the focus being on techniques or the typical style vs style paradigm.

Yes, we do have forms where we go low to the ground for grappling purposes. In the Mantis that I studied there were a number of forms that had breakfall techniques including forward/backward/side rolls.
and acrobatic techniques such as handsprings, butterfly kicks, side falls, back falls, etc... One of the forms that taught these techniques was called the Zuijui Lohan (drunken lohan)


take care

 

[qi-tah]

I posted this on another forum as well, but I'd like to see if anyone here would like to contribute to this topic .

I would like to start a thread discussing the methods and applications of the ground techniques of various styles.
I know ditang quan is a style in its own right, but many styles include ground techniques as a part of their curriculum.
Do most traditional styles include some form of tumbling in their basic skillset?

How does your style develop these skills? Do students begin learning to fall and roll (and get up again) from the very beginning of training? It seems like such skills ought to be fundamental to any marial arts curriculum.

Do you learn "breakfalls" by slapping the ground as you land, or use some other method?
Does your style utilize strikes performed from a prone position? kneeling, squatting, or otherwise extremely low to the ground? What types of strikes are trained, and is any wrestling/grappling included in these techniques?

Techniques I am familiar with include rolling to escape a grab or get out of range, rolling to quickly get into close range for grabbing or strikes, rolling while grappling, like grabbing and pulling someone's legs out from under them.
Falling as a way of evading and striking at the same time, falling and dragging someone down with you, falling on an already downed opponent. kicking the legs or groin from a prone position, sweeping from prone position, reaching up from a prone position to drag someone down.

Do you ever incorporate techniques like this into sparring/free fighting, or is it just something you do in forms that are never applied?

From many people, we hear "you should never go to the ground willingly". While I understand the sentiment, how did styles like monkey and drunken (which heavily rely on unorthodox attacks, including falling and attacks from the ground), get a reputation for being good? If they really aren't any good, why did they spread and become as famous as they are?

A young student "Joe" who trained in my school relayed an experience he had: His PE class in school offered a kickboxing/"karate" course. Having some experience in martial arts, he was allowed to spar with other kids who also had experience. His opponent was a big kid who came charging at him with fists flailing, and "Joe" performed a drop kick like he had learned in one of our crane forms, hitting his opponent in the chest or stomach and knocking the wind out of him. He got up and helped up his opponent who was clutching his stomach. The coach then proceded to scold "Joe", saying "You should never go to the ground". Joe just shrugged his shoulders, feeling that his dropping technique seemed to have been quite effective.
Perhaps such a technique isn't a good idea against a very experienced opponent, and certainly not when surrounded by opponents, but it seems to be applicable in some situations. The element of surprise can easily tip the scales in your favor, and buy you the few split-seconds you need to gain complete advantage. Sometimes you end up prone on the ground unintentionally, and it is good to be able to threaten your opponent from that position and have the skill to turn a fall into an attack.

What are your thoughts? What importance is placed on ditang/ground techniques in your style?

Gou quan or dog boxing is pretty much a ground fighting style, developed by women, whose feet were often bound and therefore not as stable for upright fighting. Is this what you are talking about when you talk about ditang? There is some good info on dog boxing here: http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/wushu/gouquan.html

In our classes we do shuai jiao or fast wrestling, which emphisises sweeps, throws and takedowns, although we haven't done any ground grappling... i assume because once you get them down the next step is to simply kick them in the head!

But we haven't done any breakfalls either, which is a bit of a gap. (Hmm, something else to ask my teacher...) The idea certainly seems to be to stay on yr feet at all costs.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Its not really possible to properly counter something you don't know about so ground work is essential, even if you don't intend to go there.

In my own curriculum we have qinna from the Western Wudang set (including White Crane, Eagle, Tiger) and Emei Snake. The Snake work is generally low with plenty of leg attacks and ground work. It tends to work with a low centre of gravity to minimise the effectiveness of throws and takedowns.

Like you, Changhfy, our ground work training looks quite a bit like MMA. At times it seems that there is nothing new in the world.

 

[Changhfy]

I agree with you Steel Tiger,

Being a human being there are only so many ways to use our fists, legs, elbows, knees, head etc...

Its how we make them more efficient and improve that really matters not so much what the expression resembles.

Basically in the curriculum that I teach our goal is to stay on our feet but if we are taken down or take someone else down, we want the student to atleast know the mechanics and have some level of skill to intelligently defend themselves in whatever range of fighting that they find themself in.

Its important for a complete system to have all the components such as.
The various ranges of combat, internal cultivation (Nei Gong), external cultivation (Wai Gong) (conditioning, external Qi gong such as Iron shirt, also the development of physical attributes such as speed, coordination, flow, power etc...), also from a personal preference I would have to say its best to have components from mental, physical and spiritual dimensions to have a complete method. (I dont feel that the spiritual is a must for every practitoner but for myself I feel it is)


take care

 

[Jin Gang]

Gou quan or dog boxing is pretty much a ground fighting style, developed by women, whose feet were often bound and therefore not as stable for upright fighting. Is this what you are talking about when you talk about ditang?

yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not necessarily all grappling/wrestling, but also applying strikes and sweeps from the ground, or very low to the ground. (I know when people think of "ground fighting" nowadays, they're mostly thinking about BJJ/MMA style wrestling)

southern dog boxing and northern ground boxing are almost entirely very low and on the ground, but many styles have at least a few of these techniques in their forms.

For those that practice these techniques, do you feel that they are only used in the event of an "emergency", where you find yourself on the ground unintentionally? Or would you willingly go to the ground in some circumstances?