Differnces in the Taijiquan

[clfsean]

Ok. Geezuz. I have no idea what that was, or where it came from. It's not Needle in Cotton. Not even a vague bastardized version. It's not Tibetan White Crane. It looks to me like someone made it up, or it's meant to be a qi-gong, or someone adopted something from somewhere else. Poorly.

This is not Tibetan White Crane. Please understand that.

Ditto ... Lama Pai here. We have our own internal practices & exercises, (noi gung & hei gung). We also have a version of Needle in Cotton. What that woman was doing was exactly not what Tibetan practitioners do.

That was made up BS.

 

[zzj]

Ok. Geezuz. I have no idea what that was, or where it came from. It's not Needle in Cotton. Not even a vague bastardized version. It's not Tibetan White Crane. It looks to me like someone made it up, or it's meant to be a qi-gong, or someone adopted something from somewhere else. Poorly.

This is not Tibetan White Crane. Please understand that.

Actually I had my suspicion that the people doing this were as much 'Tibetan White Crane' as they were 'Tai Chi', as in, they are not.

 

[zzj]

Ditto ... Lama Pai here. We have our own internal practices & exercises, (noi gung & hei gung). We also have a version of Needle in Cotton. What that woman was doing was exactly not what Tibetan practitioners do.

That was made up BS.

Thanks for that clarification. I always knew Tibetan White Crane as a perfectly legitimate and respected MA style, so I was a little perplexed to find this 'tai chi' form demonstrated.

 

[mograph]

It's not at all Tai Chi. More like somebody pretending to do Qigong.

 

[mograph]

It's not at all Tai Chi. More like somebody pretending to do Qigong.

Actually, the more I watch, the more it looks like an improvised gag.

 

[ChenAn]

Good point about the variations within the same style. Every teacher teaches slightly differently, my forms have a slightly different flavor as they come from the Zhu family and not the Chen Family (although we are all under the Chen umbrella), even the theoretical emphasis differ between teachers. It is not hard to see how the different major styles and offshoots came to be as things change and get tweaked (consciously or not) every generation and every teacher teaches what works for them and every student discovers what works for themselves...

What is Zhu family? You meant Zhu Tiancai? If so, there no such thing as Zhu family. Zhu Tiancai is the same village guy whose mother married outsider. Even though village flavor is different teacher to teacher they represent the same thing.

 

[greytowhite]

Hmm... I'd say the Chen shi Xiaojia guys have something a little different honestly.

ChinaFromInside.com presents...  TAIJIQUAN - Small Frame of Chen Style Taijiquan

 

[Goku2]

My thoughts on current taijiquan practices, for what they're worth: At this time, taiji is becoming popular. As with most popular things, there is marketing to set each style or version distinct from the others. As with marketing, the trick is to appeal to the masses. If the masses do not want to work hard, or understand what they are doing, then so be it. As with most marketing, success is defined by the most money brought in. If you come from China, it stands to reason you must know taiji. Give the people what they want!

For an understanding of the popularity of 'qigong', I'd recommend reading "Qigong Fever" by David A. Palmer. The author writes on the development of the popularity of qigong practices in Mao's China. He is not commenting on its efficacy, but the politics involved. Also consider tourism in China.

The wonderful thing about taiji(quan) is its flexibility. It is so many things to so many people! If you want spirituality, it can be there. If you're just looking for health, it can be there. If you're looking for a martial art, it can be there, and it is in this where finding someone one who truly understands it and is willing to share -herein lies the difficulty!

 

[Goku2]

Hmm... I'd say the Chen shi Xiaojia guys have something a little different honestly.

ChinaFromInside.com presents... TAIJIQUAN - Small Frame of Chen Style Taijiquan

Not really different, just different intention in the moves. This is where people think are the 'differences' are in Chen styles. If you understand what you are doing, you can see the variations or the possibilities. As my Shifu says: "Act according to the situation!"

 

[zzj]

What is Zhu family? You meant Zhu Tiancai? If so, there no such thing as Zhu family. Zhu Tiancai is the same village guy whose mother married outsider. Even though village flavor is different teacher to teacher they represent the same thing.

I mentioned Zhu family because my teacher is one of Zhu tiancai's sons (and yes, I know they are related to the chen's). I found that they have a consistent 'flavor' within their family which is different from the chen's or the wang's, but of course the differences are not too consequential and we definitely consider ourselves very much part of Mainstream Chen style. In the end, for an art that is so predicated upon self discovery and internalization, it is only natural that each and everyone of us practices taijiquan in a way unique to ourselves.

 

[ChenAn]

I mentioned Zhu family because my teacher is one of Zhu tiancai's sons (and yes, I know they are related to the chen's). I found that they have a consistent 'flavor' within their family which is different from the chen's or the wang's, but of course the differences are not too consequential and we definitely consider ourselves very much part of Mainstream Chen style. In the end, for an art that is so predicated upon self discovery and internalization, it is only natural that each and everyone of us practices taijiquan in a way unique to ourselves.

I like ZTC he is fun delightful guy to study with..However, there is a sad truth about 4 tigers. It not that much about self discovery and internalization, it's about lost transmission and lack of knowledge. Chen Zhaopi was too old to show much sick and demoralized by cultural revolution while Chen Zhaokui brief visits interrupted by a sudden death from stroke in 1981 (yes it's genetic in Chen Fake line, Chen Fake brother died from a stoke as well)

The truth is there are no old frame and new frame (laojia and xinjia respectfully) as it presented today. There are only big (dajia) and small (xiaojia) frame in Chen method. Unfortunately Chen village lost it and had to make up for the lost knowledge on their own. Chen Fake line was able to retain original method. CFK frame was't really new (as it labeled by Chen village today) it shared the same core as the small frame. Contemporary Chen maser don't have that knowledge and marketing it as is. Only Chen Xiowang had some of it when he was young, but he changed it over the years for whatever reasons. What village has today is a sad display of modern sport wrestling - not traditional Chen. Here Chen Xiaoxing brunch

If one wants to learn traditional Chen I would recommend to look search for representatives of the small frame or Feng Ziqiang/Chen Zhaokui line..Although even within those lineages there are people who substitute lack of skills by famous teacher name (standard marketing move).So there is no guarantee but there is chance.

I'm personally happy to settle with Chen Yu line after spending decade with Chen village. I'm not afraid to start over and rebuild from ground zero. I'm my opinion authentic knowledge totally worth it

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What village has today is a sad display of modern sport wrestling - not traditional Chen.

In Taiji push hand, if you don't punch, it will soon turn into wrestling. There are so many Chinese wrestlers in the northern part of China. If Chen Taiji guys want to test their skill, soon or later they have to face those Chinese wrestlers. If a Chen Taiji guy can handle himself on the mat or in the ring, his Chen Taiji is good , otherwise, his Chen Taiji is bad. Is that "sad"? I don't think so.

Every time I play push hand with Taiji guys, I like to drag their arm and move in circle. Most of the Taiji guys are not used to that strategy. IMO, it's always a good idea to integrate some wrestling strategy into Chen Taiji. From that point of view, Chen Taiji guys are not doing enough.

 

[ChenAn]

In Taiji push hand, if you don't punch, it will soon turn into wrestling. There are so many Chinese wrestlers in the northern part of China. If Chen Taiji guys want to test their skill, soon or later they have to face those Chinese wrestlers. Is that "sad"? I don't think so. If a Chen Taiji guy can handle himself on the mat or in the ring, his Chen Taiji is good , otherwise, his Chen Taiji is bad.

I used practiced sambo in my youth it's much better than this! I understand a lot of people may find this video very delightful and martial, but this only due to fact that nobody really knows what original purpose of push hand practice was, and how traditional Chen used in wrestling scenarios.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

how traditional Chen used in wrestling scenarios.

For the sake of discussion, if you are a Chen Taiji guy (or other Taiji system guy), what will you do when your opponent drags your arm like this in push hand?

 

[Goku2]

You follow, of course!

 

[Goku2]

I like ZTC he is fun delightful guy to study with..However, there is a sad truth about 4 tigers. It not that much about self discovery and internalization, it's about lost transmission and lack of knowledge. Chen Zhaopi was too old to show much sick and demoralized by cultural revolution while Chen Zhaokui brief visits interrupted by a sudden death from stroke in 1981 (yes it's genetic in Chen Fake line, Chen Fake brother died from a stoke as well)

The truth is there are no old frame and new frame (laojia and xinjia respectfully) as it presented today. There are only big (dajia) and small (xiaojia) frame in Chen method. Unfortunately Chen village lost it and had to make up for the lost knowledge on their own. Chen Fake line was able to retain original method. CFK frame was't really new (as it labeled by Chen village today) it shared the same core as the small frame. Contemporary Chen maser don't have that knowledge and marketing it as is. Only Chen Xiowang had some of it when he was young, but he changed it over the years for whatever reasons. What village has today is a sad display of modern sport wrestling - not traditional Chen. Here Chen Xiaoxing brunch

If one wants to learn traditional Chen I would recommend to look search for representatives of the small frame or Feng Ziqiang/Chen Zhaokui line..Although even within those lineages there are people who substitute lack of skills by famous teacher name (standard marketing move).So there is no guarantee but there is chance.

I'm personally happy to settle with Chen Yu line after spending decade with Chen village. I'm not afraid to start over and rebuild from ground zero. I'm my opinion authentic knowledge totally worth it

My current teacher studied with Ma Hong and Chen Yu. Ma Hong studied with Chen Zhaokui. I cannot agree with you more, ChenAn, as I too started over.

 

[ChenAn]

For the sake of discussion, if you are a Chen Taiji guy (or other Taiji system guy), what will you do when your opponent drags your arm like this in push hand?

In my line if someone ascent his hand on the arm is happiest moment. A lot of things can be done..To answer your question let me come from another angle - one thing I wouldn't do is to hold an opponent resisting his pull

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You follow, of course!

Are you talking about "yielding"?

 

[Goku2]

Are you talking about "yielding"?

If my opponent wants me to go in a direction, I oblige.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If my opponent wants me to go in a direction, I oblige.

Both resisting and yielding are all bad solutions. The reason is you are reacting as your opponent wants you to react. IMO, the best solution is to take the control back and attack. The question is how? If you don't train this counter in Taiji PH, you may not react properly when it happens.

There are so many "wrestling strategies" such as "arm dragging" and "circle running" that can be integrated into Taiji PH. I believe Chen Taiji is doing that (which is not a "sad" thing), but in my opinion, they are still not doing enough yet.