Differentiating Double Kicks

[skribs]

What do you name the following:

You have right leg forward. You step your left back foot

1. pass in front of your right foot, land in front of your right foot,
2. touch your right foot, land next to your right foot,
3. pass behind of your right foot,

and then do a right side kick.

Step and side kick
Feet together and side kick
Step-behind side kick

These are common pieces of footwork, we have them named instead of describing them.

 

[skribs]

When I started we learned the Korean Terms and later abandoned them in favor of English terms. I found still later that the English terms did not always conform to the terms in the text. As I became more involved on a national scale, and later international scale I conformed my terms to the text. Primarily to avoid confusion by students if they traveled and also tried to look up stuff in the text which was indexed in English. Still later encountering students from other countries I found they did not know the English terms, only the Korean terms so I had to brush up on my use of those. Helped a lot . So long as those students did not learn the terms in French, Spanish, Russian... and some had. So, then it becomes "Like This".

I don't speak enough Korean to expect my future students to.

 

[skribs]

It has to be progressive does it not? Teaching the kick to a new person would require the very detailed description for the sake of understanding. So it is a matter of exposure and experience I think. Your first list I really do not understand what you mean but it apparently it makes sense to you, thus our exposure has been different. The second list is an understandable list, albeit not a full explanation of what to do. If, for example the drill was prefaced with "all kicks will start right leg forward roundhouse kick" that is a more accurate descriptor.

What is a drag kick in your terminology?

Drag kick: pick up your kicking foot and push off with the plant foot.

I would need more details when teaching it, but the same goes for every word. Once taught, I can mostly lean on the vocabulary.

We've all done it already. That's why we say "side kick" instead of describing the entire motion. But we do describe the entire motion when teaching the kick, we don't need to do that every time if people already know the kick.

 

[dvcochran]

Drag kick: pick up your kicking foot and push off with the plant foot.

I would need more details when teaching it, but the same goes for every word. Once taught, I can mostly lean on the vocabulary.

We've all done it already. That's why we say "side kick" instead of describing the entire motion. But we do describe the entire motion when teaching the kick, we don't need to do that every time if people already know the kick.

Your drag would be our slide.

 

[skribs]

Your drag would be our slide.

And that's okay. I would much rather that if my students go to another school, they have to relearn what things are called, than if they had to relearn the techniques entirely. When we get transfer students, it's very clear very quick to me whether or not their old school did them justice. Everyone struggles learning our curriculum (like I've said in the past, a lot of rote memorization, non-standard forms, etc). But some students have sharp and clear techniques, and just need to learn our way of doing things. Others are sloppy and have no idea how to do some of the techniques we expect at their level.

If one of your students came to my school and I said "sliding roundhouse" and they did what I'd call a drag roundhouse, I wouldn't be concerned. That's something that's easy to adjust. If one of your students came to my school and had the same terminology as we do, but their technique was really sloppy, I'd have a different opinion.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

And that's okay. I would much rather that if my students go to another school, they have to relearn what things are called, than if they had to relearn the techniques entirely. When we get transfer students, it's very clear very quick to me whether or not their old school did them justice. Everyone struggles learning our curriculum (like I've said in the past, a lot of rote memorization, non-standard forms, etc). But some students have sharp and clear techniques, and just need to learn our way of doing things. Others are sloppy and have no idea how to do some of the techniques we expect at their level.

If one of your students came to my school and I said "sliding roundhouse" and they did what I'd call a drag roundhouse, I wouldn't be concerned. That's something that's easy to adjust. If one of your students came to my school and had the same terminology as we do, but their technique was really sloppy, I'd have a different opinion.

Any school you go to you have to learn the new names. For techniques (not necessarily forms), it's a simple matter and you can probably pick up most of the differences in a month. Changing some habits (how you rotate your fist on certain punches, for instance), may be tougher but I find that often that stuff isn't nearly as important.

Unless you're going to a wholly different style. Then just forget all the terms and skills you know while learning it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

just forget all the terms ...

Agree! What you know is not important. What you can do is important. If you can just record 100 techniques and make it a "silent" video, your MA continuation to the MA world will be valuable.

What the name of those moves that this guy is doing in his clip? Do you care?

 

[skribs]

Agree! What you know is not important. What you can do is important. If you can just record 100 techniques and make it a "silent" video, your MA continuation to the MA world will be valuable.

What the name of those moves that this guy is doing in his clip? Do you care?

If you're talking about skills, then the skills are what matter.

If you're talking to each other about the skills, then what they're named is very important. For example, if @dvcochran and I just started talking about sliding kicks, we'd think each other very bad at them, unless we agreed on what we're calling a sliding kick.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Any school you go to you have to learn the new names. For techniques (not necessarily forms),

This is where following a specific text or syllabus nationally or internationally can make students who transfer to or visit a new place feel at home. That was my motivation for conforming terminology to the text. Both for people who visit me and my students who transfer.

 

[dvcochran]

And that's okay. I would much rather that if my students go to another school, they have to relearn what things are called, than if they had to relearn the techniques entirely. When we get transfer students, it's very clear very quick to me whether or not their old school did them justice. Everyone struggles learning our curriculum (like I've said in the past, a lot of rote memorization, non-standard forms, etc). But some students have sharp and clear techniques, and just need to learn our way of doing things. Others are sloppy and have no idea how to do some of the techniques we expect at their level.

If one of your students came to my school and I said "sliding roundhouse" and they did what I'd call a drag roundhouse, I wouldn't be concerned. That's something that's easy to adjust. If one of your students came to my school and had the same terminology as we do, but their technique was really sloppy, I'd have a different opinion.

Were you able to come up with a list of names for the original list?

 

[skribs]

This is where following a specific text or syllabus nationally or internationally can make students who transfer to or visit a new place feel at home. That was my motivation for conforming terminology to the text. Both for people who visit me and my students who transfer.

Neither of the schools that I've been to use the same syllabus or text as the larger organization. The KKW curriculum is very bare and leaves much of the teaching at the discretion of the Masters. I believe we're also encouraged to use the local language to make it easier to learn. Personally, I like being able to do my own thing. It allows me to bring my own unique perspective from the cross-training I've done.

Although I do see the benefits as you describe them, I don't think that would work for me, based on the way I've trained thus far.

Were you able to come up with a list of names for the original list?

Not yet. I've got some ideas to mull over. I've said it before - one of the luxuries of starting these lines of thinking now, is that in 10 years when I open a school I'll have it figured out.

 

[drop bear]

1. Double Up RH
2. Double Pump
3. RH-RH
4. Double RH

These are quick terms I use during drills

Or even one, two, three, four.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Or even one, two, three, four.

This is why I like "silent" video.

I have always believed in:

- Technique name is not important.
- Technique has no standard.

 

[skribs]

Or even one, two, three, four.

I think this works within a session. Like "today, we are doing 3 drills, here's Drill #1, Drill #2, and Drill #3." But what I don't like is just using the numbers from then on. That's what we do at my current school for everything. For my last test, I had to have memorized:

• Punch Combo #1-20
• Kick Combo #1-22
• Jump Kick Combo #1-12
• Punch Defense #1-5
• Hand Grab Defense #1-5
• Knife Defense #1-7
• Gun Defense #1-3
• Nunchaku #1-15
• Escrima #1-8
• Double Escrima #1-5
• And so on.

We have the same in Hapkido, where everything is numbered. Literally it's:

• White Belt #1-27
• Yellow Belt #1-7
• Purple Belt #1-4
• Orange Belt #1-9
• Green Belt #1-7
• Blue Belt #1-7
• Red Belt #1-13

What I've found in both arts is people quite often spend so much time trying to remember what technique or combination goes with what #, that we end up practicing the memorization more than the technique. I've memorized everything quite easily (I'm a quick learner), but for most students it seems to be a big hurdle. And when I watch people practice, and even sometimes when I practice, we end up running through combinations doing enough of the motion to show ourselves we know it. For example, instead of doing a 1-2 punch and a backfist, we'll just do a couple of small fist pumps and flip our hand over.

That's not to say we don't train techniques. We do train the techniques themselves in class. But when we practice for a test, more often we're practicing "do I remember what #4 is?" than we're practicing "do I have good technique in my punching combo."

This is something I desperately want to get away from if I create my own curriculum. Unfortunately, because we number everything, I'm often left without names for stuff...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

today, we are doing 3 drills, here's Drill #1, Drill #2, and Drill #3....

You can also say, "Today we are working on a principle - use kick X to set up kick Y. Here are to use right roundhouse kick to set up

1. right roundhouse kick.
2. right side kick.
3. left roundhouse kick.
4. left side kick.
5. ...

Here is your homework. Write down all the meaningful X, Y combinations and bring it back to me tomorrow."

The advantage of the principle approach is students can come up with their own kicking combos all by themselves.

 

[skribs]

You can also say, "Today we are working on a principle - use kick X to set up kick Y. Here are to use right roundhouse kick to set up

1. right roundhouse kick.
2. right side kick.
3. left roundhouse kick.
4. left side kick.
5. ...

Here is your homework. Write down all the meaningful X, Y combinations and bring it back to me tomorrow."

The advantage of the principle approach is students can come up with their own kicking combos all by themselves.

This is what I'm trying to go for, over what we have now. And if I want to do that, if I at least have names for most of the common combinations, then it makes communicating that homework much easier.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is what I'm trying to go for, over what we have now. And if I want to do that, if I at least have names for most of the common combinations, then it makes communicating that homework much easier.

The combo names can be:

1. right roundhouse kick, right roundhouse kick.
2. non-landing right roundhouse kick, right roundhouse kick.
3. right roundhouse kick, left roundhouse kick.
4. ...

You can define roundhouse kick as landing roundhouse kick.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think this works within a session. Like "today, we are doing 3 drills, here's Drill #1, Drill #2, and Drill #3." But what I don't like is just using the numbers from then on. That's what we do at my current school for everything. For my last test, I had to have memorized:

• .

You will note that in the Gup requirements there are a total of about 12 combinations designated as "Sparring Combinations " 1-6 and "Iniial moves A-F." The purpose of these is to give beginners solid work eable combinations so they don't have to figure the out under fire when they learn to spar. It also helps with coaching / teaching while they are sparring if you can just say "A" or "1" .

 

[skribs]

You will note that in the Gup requirements there are a total of about 12 combinations designated as "Sparring Combinations " 1-6 and "Iniial moves A-F." The purpose of these is to give beginners solid work eable combinations so they don't have to figure the out under fire when they learn to spar. It also helps with coaching / teaching while they are sparring if you can just say "A" or "1" .

I also think there's a benefit in being able to say "do #2" instead of "roundhouse kick", because that way your opponent doesn't know what's coming. But it's also my experience that half the time you only hear your coach between rounds...

I do agree there are some benefits to memorization. Which is why I've stuck at my school instead of leaving. I just don't think it's my style of teaching. My approach I'm working on is more along the lines of what @Kung Fu Wang said - mix techniques and principles to allow students to be creative with it. For example, the kicking curriculum would include:

• White Belt - Basic Kicks on spot or advancing
• Yellow Belt - Knee Strikes, add steps forward or backward before kicking
• Purple Belt - Basic Jumping Kicks, Step-Behind Side Kick, and Sliding Forward or Backward then kicking
• Orange Belt - Pop/Flying Jumping Kicks, Pulling Knee Strike, Switch & Kick
• Green Belt - Turning Roundhouse Kick, Hook Kick, Front Kick variations, Skipping Kicks, Repeating Kicks
• Blue Belt - Tornado Kick, Spin Hook Kick, Double Kicks, Lateral Movement and Kicks

At the beginning, I don't know there's enough variation to bother numbering things, and later on there's too many possibilities (at least, the way I see it).

And the worst case scenario I can think of is that my system doesn't work very well, and then I always have my Master's curriculum I can return to like the prodigal son.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You can also say, "Today we are working on a principle - use kick X to set up kick Y. Here are to use right roundhouse kick to set up

.

Do you explain the principle? How is it that kick X sets up kick Y. or do they have to figure it out?