Difference in a belt test

[terryl965]

I was ask to sit on a panel for another school belt test last night. It is funny how one can do the same style, poomsae and self defense and see so much different in the way it is presented. I mean I saw 12 people do Tae Guek Il and atleast five different variations. I saw some self defense that was at best good for demo's but not realistic in a real confirtation.

I did see some great kicking techniques with proper balance and power to go with them. I also saw some great one steps and some fantastic sprring matches. All in all it was a good test, but I still wonder about those poomsae and how they where done. Congrats to everyone.

 

[granfire]

LOL, I had that feeling every time I sat in in testing.

We used to do it together with 3 other schools. and then again at tournaments.

 

[Eazy]

Great thread starter i wondered about this myself.
It will be good to see what come out of this thread, Not enough experience to coment otherwise. Ill just sit on the side line of this one and read.

 

[ATC]

The only thing I can say is that we have a few kids that are preparing to test soon and from what I can tell are a few things happen.

1. The kids or even adults, do not understand the principles behind the techniques being used in the form. The tend to just move the body in the direction it needs to be going and then swing the arms or legs as if that will be enough. This results in just going through motions with no thought of setup for the techniques at all. You will see punches from the belly with no chamber or twist. You will see blocks come from angles that will no block anything and so on.

2. Laziness. I see many people that are just plain lazy. They don't even attempt to do a proper stance as it requires to much effort. Walking stance looks like ready stance, front stance looks like walking stance, and back stance looks like nothing I have ever seen in any martial art. They put no power into their techniques making them look like a dance. This same laziness also creates what was described in what I listed above in list one. Bad looking forms because of no setup and smooth transitions. No hand chamber, no leg recoil, no blocking setup at the proper placement.

3. List item 1 and 2 are the fault of the instructor. The instructor needs to make sure that these things are corrected. However it is the students responsibility to practice at home. 45 minutes to 1 hour 3 times per weeks is not enough time to perfect any techniques. Class as it is structured is for being exposed to things and then perfecting on your own. Techniques are shown in class but can in no way be perfected in that same class. Once you go home you must practice them and in class instructors can only correct a small amount and then you go back to perfect those changes and so on. If you go home and do not practice then you simple come back only doing the same incorrect technique. An instructor will correct it but if you do not go back and practice the correction then you can still only come in and do it wrong again. Over time with class and home practice you will look good. Over time with class and no home practice you will look bad.

4. There are many instructors that are really not qualified to teach. They themselves do not know the what and why (principles) behind many of the forms or even the simple techniques that make up the form. Sad but it is true. So if you have someone teaching you to do a technique but they themselves do not even know the proper technique then you can only learn to do an even worse technique. The instructor him or herself can actually do a proper technique but if they do not understand why that technique is done the way it is all they can say is do as I do. Well what is it that you do and why. I just stand this way and block like this. OK, so you copy what you think you see, and the instructor looks at and even to them it looks OK because they don't know why or what it really should look like. So then they get a bunch of students that all have different looking forms. Some kick to low, and some to high. Some block out or in to far, and yet other not far enough. Some stand to wide and some to narrow. And the list go on.

This is just the tip of the issue of why forms can look so different from one student to the next. Can't wait to hear from some others and what they think or have observed.

 

[ccultrara]

Was this kid testing or Adult testing, because like ATC said, its the little things that make or break a form. Kids are the laziest when it comes to this. I go to watch and help my GM's testing at the school he is teaching in and notice a huge difference in techs and forms and the curriculum we teach is the exact same. Then again, the instructors play a big part. My teaching of high block maybe a slanted arm above the head in front stance while the GM's is a bent arm in a walking stance

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

You know how that goes Terry, each dojang and Saubumnims have their own style of teaching, and expectations of how they want to see their directions carried out. Even doing the charriot/attention command varries from dojang/saubaumnin to saubumim..:mst:

 

[Earl Weiss]

Therein lies the advantage / disadvantage to being in a school / org with strict, uniform standards.

Hosted a test yesterday with people from schools seperated by many hundreds of miles. Illinois, Michigan upper peninsula and Lower Penninsula. Someone outside the org would have no idea that they were not from the same school.

One time I had a visitor from the east coast. Same system but different org. (Since I am near O'hare I get lots of visitors and transfer students.

Had students perform a pattern he knew and then asked where they learned it. Answers were Canada, Connecticut, Illinois, Siberia and Poland. He was stunned. Said he would have guessed they were all my students from white belt. That's the beauty of the system and org, and up to date instructors.

Downside is that it takes time, money and energy to make sure instructors are all on the same page.

 

[StudentCarl]

1. The kids or even adults, do not understand the principles behind the techniques being used in the form. The tend to just move the body in the direction it needs to be going and then swing the arms or legs as if that will be enough.

One thing I was taught 30 years ago that I don't see or hear any more is what were called the "elements of power", the fundamentals of all technique. I was taught that they are stance, hips, focus, and reaction force (using push/pull).

I think there is value in teaching something like this because it gives the student an easy check on their own technique, and is a compact statement of the principles that are most abused and neglected.

I understand what Terry is saying about minor variations in forms that might be attributed to different instructors or lineages, but the different levels of student learning/effort that ATC mentions increase that variation. Looking at it as a future instructor, I'm wondering what I can do to develop the best students I can. Right now I think the above 'elements of power' are all I would bring attention to. I think they are embedded in the curriculum, but they're not taught explicitly, at least through my 3rd gup level.

Carl

 

[terryl965]

Was this kid testing or Adult testing, because like ATC said, its the little things that make or break a form. Kids are the laziest when it comes to this. I go to watch and help my GM's testing at the school he is teaching in and notice a huge difference in techs and forms and the curriculum we teach is the exact same. Then again, the instructors play a big part. My teaching of high block maybe a slanted arm above the head in front stance while the GM's is a bent arm in a walking stance

It was a combonation of both.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I've never sat in on testing at another school, but my first month back I forced the outgoing instructor to cancel the testing for that month, and when we did test those 3 students, we passed them more on a 'they were good at what they were taught' vs a they were up to my expectations. The instructor was a very good martial artists, and from a lineage of good instructors (my father and a good friend of ours). He just let standards slide to keep the class going. We told them it would be a long time before the next test.



As for the elements of power, we teach that. It's something I show especially when I am stressing the importance of proper stance. I'll have one of the bigger adults shove me, and then have them shove me while I'm in a proper long/forward stance. When I don't budge the second time, it opens a few eyes.