As I recall from the either the opinion or the court's release on it, the cite was for 79 in a 60, down from 85, which would have required an appearance. The officer's visual estimate was 70... so he was off, but they were still well over.
Didn't do it but cop THINKS you did? GUILTY!
- Thread starter Cryozombie
- Start date
I listened to the oral argument. The defense attorney blew it, IMO. Only one justice (perhaps the gent who dissented) asked "What was the real speed here?"
To my own uneducated eyes, I didn't find this to be a strong case for speed estimation. Yes he appeared to be over, and driving too fast for condition (riding someone's *** at highway speeds is prolly a surefire way to get a ticket in any state).
But the numbers don't add up. The officer says he is trained to estimate between 3-4 percent of the actual speed....he estimates a speed of 70 that is clocked at 82? As a motorist, I would love for every LEO to give me 12MPH of doubt on the highway.
Still, that's a 300% error margin.
I'm no lawyer but between that and only the single justice questioning the facts...I think the attorney spent too much time with his canned "that is also under dispute" statement and not enough time with the hard data.
To my own uneducated eyes, I didn't find this to be a strong case for speed estimation. Yes he appeared to be over, and driving too fast for condition (riding someone's *** at highway speeds is prolly a surefire way to get a ticket in any state).
But the numbers don't add up. The officer says he is trained to estimate between 3-4 percent of the actual speed....he estimates a speed of 70 that is clocked at 82? As a motorist, I would love for every LEO to give me 12MPH of doubt on the highway.
Still, that's a 300% error margin. I'm no lawyer but between that and only the single justice questioning the facts...I think the attorney spent too much time with his canned "that is also under dispute" statement and not enough time with the hard data.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Many times the cop will lowball the speed estimate. Better to err on "75 in a 60" which is still well over the limit than go over by saying he was doing 90. Then there are times when the cop will be a softie and lowball the speed so that the fines won't jump into a higher bracket.
However the argument here didn't really boil down to the actual speed. The issue was if visual speed estimation is enough to support a conviction of speeding.
However the argument here didn't really boil down to the actual speed. The issue was if visual speed estimation is enough to support a conviction of speeding.
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
Incidentally, a cop's done me that favor before, gave me a ticket for 45 in a 35 when he'd actually clocked me at 54. I was thankful, smaller fine to pay.
OP
OP
Incidentally, a cop's done me that favor before, gave me a ticket for 45 in a 35 when he'd actually clocked me at 54. I was thankful, smaller fine to pay.
I've had that happen too. It was a Nebraska State trooper who pulled me over passing a line of semi trucks so I could get over and make my exit. It kept me from having to come back to Nebraska for court.
I don't see the Cop/Doctor analogy being Apples/Oranges. Just as a Cop is trained to Assess the Speed of a Vehicle a Doctor is trained to Assess the amount of damage to the Human body. He can certainly tell if enough force was used to break an arm, or if an excessive amount of force was used to SHATTER an arm bone, without being there, eh?
Overall, here is my issue with this type of enforcement: I worry that
A) it allows for an officer having a bad day, or who is low on issuing tickets (and yes, I'm aware there are no "ticket quota" but I have also been told on a number of occasions by officers they are still expected to have a certain number written) to decide that people are speeding even if they are not by visual assessment, and the Speeder then has no recourse in court, since they assume the officer is correct with no proof but their word. That to me is the same as guilty until proven innocent.
B) It sets a standard for other offenses: What if that cop smells beer on your breath and decides you are drunk without the need for a breathalyzer, and a similar determination is that officers are trained to spot intoxication, therefore you are guilty without the benefit of the reading. We aren't there yet, but MY OPINION is that this sets a precedent that police training/opinion superceeds the need for technology to prove a crime occurred.
My initial comment about Murder isn't too far fetched under that type of rationalization. If all it takes is an officer's word that you did it, with no evidence to back it up... some slick dick lawyer will find a way to abuse that to make cases, and all we can hope for is a Judge who doesn't think that makes for great justice.
Archangel M
Senior Master
The doc comparison IS absolutely apples/oranges. I am giving a visual estimation of an event AS IT IS HAPPENING. A doctor is looking at injuries after the fact that could have been caused by many factors that he DID NOT WITNESS personally.
This is not setting any president. It's been this way all along. Back in the day when cops sat behind billboards in their Studebakers how do you think they stopped speeders? Radar and pacing are just verifications of the visual estimate.
BAC is just another apples/oranges comparison. I determine that you are too intoxicated to drive based on your look/smell/performance of sobriety tests. You pretty much ARE (and have always been) charged with DWI based on the officers "opinion"...except it isn't opinion, it's legally accepted training and common experience.Something you are trying to define as my "opinion".
You can be too intoxicated to drive but still be below the legal BAC. Some people "hold their liquor" better than others. If you are all over the road and stumbling but your BAC is a .06 should we just let you drive away? Most states have 2 DWI charges. The one I charge you with on the scene based on my investigation ("opinion") and a second charge when your BAC is tested. Your BAC is determined by the breath test device not my "opinion".
So if I am in a car with no radar unit am I supposed to just let some car scream down the street and not stop it? If you say I should stop it..what for? What would I be allowed to do when I did? Most speeders don't maintain speed when they see me coming up behind them so that I can pace them.
This is not setting any president. It's been this way all along. Back in the day when cops sat behind billboards in their Studebakers how do you think they stopped speeders? Radar and pacing are just verifications of the visual estimate.
BAC is just another apples/oranges comparison. I determine that you are too intoxicated to drive based on your look/smell/performance of sobriety tests. You pretty much ARE (and have always been) charged with DWI based on the officers "opinion"...except it isn't opinion, it's legally accepted training and common experience.Something you are trying to define as my "opinion".
You can be too intoxicated to drive but still be below the legal BAC. Some people "hold their liquor" better than others. If you are all over the road and stumbling but your BAC is a .06 should we just let you drive away? Most states have 2 DWI charges. The one I charge you with on the scene based on my investigation ("opinion") and a second charge when your BAC is tested. Your BAC is determined by the breath test device not my "opinion".
So if I am in a car with no radar unit am I supposed to just let some car scream down the street and not stop it? If you say I should stop it..what for? What would I be allowed to do when I did? Most speeders don't maintain speed when they see me coming up behind them so that I can pace them.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Something else I would like to add...
Different departments do things differently so take this as a "most likely but not definite" statement.
I would say you shouldn't get the impression that most police officers set up speed traps without radar. Most officers are not going out there to fill their ticket "quota" with visually estimated speed citations. Most likely this was a case of an officer on patrol who saw some car flying down the road.
In my dept only 3 regular patrol cars have radar units. However the traffic division cars ALL have radar. They are the officers that typically run speed traps. However, we ALL have a responsibility for road safety. Just because I don't have a radar unit in my car doesn't mean that I am going to let cars fly past me without doing something. Sure, if I can pace to add weight to my visual estimation I will, but typically, once they see me the brake lights come on...
Different departments do things differently so take this as a "most likely but not definite" statement.
I would say you shouldn't get the impression that most police officers set up speed traps without radar. Most officers are not going out there to fill their ticket "quota" with visually estimated speed citations. Most likely this was a case of an officer on patrol who saw some car flying down the road.
In my dept only 3 regular patrol cars have radar units. However the traffic division cars ALL have radar. They are the officers that typically run speed traps. However, we ALL have a responsibility for road safety. Just because I don't have a radar unit in my car doesn't mean that I am going to let cars fly past me without doing something. Sure, if I can pace to add weight to my visual estimation I will, but typically, once they see me the brake lights come on...
punisher73
Senior Master
They will also low ball the speed so the person is less likely to try and fight the ticket and take up time. For example, many officers I know will only stop cars for going over 10mph and then right it for 1-5. This gives them a break on points and fines, but also since the ticket still has the actual speed on it, is less likely to fight it in court since the officer cut them a break.
The officer is observing the alleged behavior directly. The doctor is drawing inferences from the end result. If the cop were to walk up to your car, note that the tires and engine are warm, and thereby conclude that you were speeding with no further evidence, he'd be doing the same thing as a doctor looking at the injuries and concluding the force was excessive. The doctor doesn't know what level of resistance the officer faced; the officer looking at the hot car doesn't know what the speed limit was or where the car was driven, or if it was even driven faster than the speed limit.
I can and have made that case. Based on my observations of the accused behavior, without a breath test (the subject refused), and my description of those behaviors, a magistrate issued a warrant and a judge convicted. All the technology, be it a breath test, radar gun, or forensic analysis does is confirm the investigative results or what the officer observed.
The officer's trained and experienced estimation is accepted as evidence. The accused still has the right to confront the officer and impeach that testimony. Did he lose sight of the car? Could he have been mistaken? What other traffic was present? If his estimate was so far off (in this case), is it really a reliable estimate? Lots of room to attack the testimony, if the accused so chooses...
It takes a lot more to prove the case or even bring charges. Especially in a serious case.
Again, the officer in the case of a speeding ticket is observing a violation directly. He's made a visual estimate of the speed, and radar or LIDAR or VASCAR or whatever is simply confirming that estimate. He must still be willing to stand in front of a judge, and give testimony. If the defendant can sufficiently impeach that testimony, the judge has every right and duty to find the defendant not guilty.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Comparing traffic summons to felony criminal cases is a HUGE leap.
punisher73
Senior Master
"Excessive Force" is a legal concept and has a specific meaning. If someone gets mouthy with me and I punch them in the stomach for it, even though I cause no injury at all other than pain, it is still excessive force because their level of resistance did not match with the level of control I chose to use. Yes, there are some cases when that is the appropriate use of force to control a violent suspect trying to hurt you.
As to a broken arm, the courts have ruled that if force is justified and applied in "good faith" and an injury occurs than the officer is not at fault. For example (true court case out of Dearborn, MI), a woman is unrulely in a public place, and the police attempt to calm her down and remove her. The woman refuses and keeps escalated her verbal abuse and is not complying with directives to leave. The officer puts his hands on her arm to escort her out of the movie theater. The woman attempts to resist and tries to pull away. To maintain control, the officer goes for a straight armbar takedown (which is the technique taught and used for that resistance in his department). As the officer is taking the woman down, the woman further tries to resist and takes a step forward in an attempt to resist the takedown. Due to the momentum of the officer, the position of her straightening out her arm as she pulled away and then bracing herself during the takedown, her arm is broke.
Now, you can look at it two ways:
1) The officer broke her arm for being disorderly (which everyone can agree is excessive).
OR (as the courts ruled)
2) The officer WAS using the appropriate force in that situation and the suspect further resisting caused an unforseen circumstance to change that outcome and if had not been further resisting no injury would have occured.
You see, in that example, the doctor can only tell you that the arm is broken, and how many pounds of pressure it would take to cause that type of injury. The doctor can't tell you if 1) the officer was legally using force in the first place or 2) if the injury was intentional or accidental or 3) if the officer was using the appropriate amount of force for the situation.
That is why it is apples and oranges.
OP
OP
Ok fair enough.
But would anyone like to address my concern that cops can lie if they want, and with no verification we are presumed guilty with no way to prove otherwise? I notice no one chose to tackle that fundamental issue?
But would anyone like to address my concern that cops can lie if they want, and with no verification we are presumed guilty with no way to prove otherwise? I notice no one chose to tackle that fundamental issue?
Archangel M
Senior Master
So cops couldn't lie about pacing in their vehicle...or about the radar read? What sort of "proof" would you require???
OP
OP
Something more tangible than "he said she said" with 1 side always being "right, just and trusted" and the other side always being wrong. Maybe A radar read, on an accurate machine, used properly.
"innocent until proven guilty" was SUPPOSED to be an important concept in our justice system... IMO that gets skewed when the accusing side can say anything they like with no evidence to back it up and they are always given the benefit of the doubt.
Look at it this way: What if the role was reversed? Ask yourself how you would feel if everything a cop said and did was assumed to be wrong, and all it took was some scumbag on the street to say "That cop did X" and you got fined for it? Would you demand evidence then?
What I'm getting at, again, is that despite attitude to the contrary, cops aren't always moral, just, and error-free... Im willing to give them the benefit of the doubt 75% of the time, but you know that other 25%... isn't right. There SHOULD be checks and balances, and the courts fail in that job by assuming the officer is always right.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Thing is... that "accurate read on the radar" cant be traced to your particular read. You are going on "my word" that what I wrote on the ticket is what the radar CONFIRMED as my visual estimate. At trial what typically gets queried is if the radar unit has been calibrated...not for the specific read on your ticket. All you seem to be requiring is that the cop have a radar unit in his car.
Which still leaves my question unanswered, if I don't have a radar gun and some dude SCREAMS past me..what should I do?
What about running stop signs? I could "lie" and say you did...it's just my "word" that I saw you run it. Am I going to have to set up cameras on all stop signs to prevent cops from "lying"?
Which still leaves my question unanswered, if I don't have a radar gun and some dude SCREAMS past me..what should I do?
What about running stop signs? I could "lie" and say you did...it's just my "word" that I saw you run it. Am I going to have to set up cameras on all stop signs to prevent cops from "lying"?
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Do we really want to not be able to rely on a LEO's judgment (which can sometimes work heavily in the motorist's favor, ie: a warning instead of a ticket) for traffic offenses, and rely on technology instead?
UK/US police has that in place already, eh? As red light cams and speed cams?
I'd much rather deal with a human police officer, personally.
UK/US police has that in place already, eh? As red light cams and speed cams?
I'd much rather deal with a human police officer, personally.
OP
OP
I thought that was part and parcel to the reason we have added Dash Cams to cop cars...
Archangel M
Senior Master
Dash Cams turn on when I turn the overheads on...
I turn the overheads on when I have reason to stop you...
You have to do something BEFORE I can stop you...
Do the math.
PS-Not all PD's have, or can afford dash cams.
Also, in some areas, 11 cars can show up on scene, but all 11 will have "technical issues" with their cams. (true story, discussed here in the past).
The way it works is, cop says its so, and can stack the deck in his favor. ("He was speeding, and I religiously have my radar gun chronoed every morning so it's perfectly accurate.") (again, true story from traffic court)
Truth is, cops lie, cops "fix" evidence, and cops make mistakes.
Some cops.
Most I believe are doing a hard job, often with substandard equipment and just doing the best they can.
Worried about whats going to happen when dealing with cops?
Get your own dash cam, install a 'black box' that will record all traffic data, get a wearable cam, and be a polite and quiet type. Sir them to death, and send the profanity laced lambasting to the media, youtube, and their superiors. Don't make an issue of minor things, don't seek out confrontations, and don't be a jerk. Also, don't hang out with jerks or those who seek out confrontation.
The way it works is, cop says its so, and can stack the deck in his favor. ("He was speeding, and I religiously have my radar gun chronoed every morning so it's perfectly accurate.") (again, true story from traffic court)
Truth is, cops lie, cops "fix" evidence, and cops make mistakes.
Some cops.
Most I believe are doing a hard job, often with substandard equipment and just doing the best they can.
Worried about whats going to happen when dealing with cops?
Get your own dash cam, install a 'black box' that will record all traffic data, get a wearable cam, and be a polite and quiet type. Sir them to death, and send the profanity laced lambasting to the media, youtube, and their superiors. Don't make an issue of minor things, don't seek out confrontations, and don't be a jerk. Also, don't hang out with jerks or those who seek out confrontation.
OP
OP
Id go to Jail for that... you CANNOT tape the cops in Illinois.
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