Did you loose a fight because?

[don bohrer]

How many guys here in whats considered a standup martial art have lost a fight because you were taken to the ground? If you did go to the ground but won why? Ok now the reverse. How many grapplers lost because they couldn't fight standing up? So many people advocate learning grappling. I just want to see if the numbers support it, or if the UFC has tainted public opinion.


don

 

[Zoran]

When I worked as a bouncer, of all the confrontations I've had to deal with, only 2 went to the ground.

One against another MAist who took me to the ground with him as I threw him, the other was because we slipped as I was trying to achieve some sort of control tech on someone a lot stronger than me. Fortunantly for me, I knew more ground work than my attackers.

While bouncing, I did see quite a few brawls also. Although it wasn't 90% that went to the ground, more like 70%. But, most were quite drunk or they tripped over chairs or tables. :shrug:

The statistics of 90% go to the ground could be accurate, or not. I would like to see some statistics on how many were blind stinking drunk.

 

[MA-Caver]

Grappling was an art that I learned late and lost many fights because they were on the ground. Mainly because my opponent was heavier/bigger than I was (5-10'' 145 lbs). But as I mentioned in another post I made sure they walked away hurting one way or another. I never bothered with the stats on my own personal confrontations but I'm sure that at least 75% of the "ground-fights" I was in I lost. Later as I learned ground fighting techniques I began coming out ahead.
Rarely had I gotten into a fight when I was drunk to any degree...but that's been a while since I've 14 years clean and sober under my belt.
I had a discussion with another MA-ist about the import of ground fighting techinques, particularly for women, especially on a bed since the "ground" of a mattress gives a little thus throwing the fighter even further off balance. Her school does teach ground-techniques as an additon to her Kenpo training. We wondered if it were not a new idea that training while on a mattress to grappel an assailant might be added as part of the cirrciculmn <sic>. This goes for men as well as women. Scenario is someone broken into the domicile and attacks while you were sleeping.
Of all fights I've seen 95% of them go to the ground MA style or not. All were messy, bar fights and streets.
:asian:

 

[Shiatsu]

Well I would say I have been in probably 2 dozen street altercations. Nature of the job. And none have gone to the ground. However I believe my training is the only reason why. It isn't that hard to defend a grappling attack. However grappling does have it's places. But I only use throws for myself, even then very rarely. I guess it depends on the skill of the practitioner.:asian:

 

[OULobo]

I have been in a streetfight (literally in the street) where it went to the ground immediatly. I was on my way to a party with some buddies and out of nowhere some guy is tackaling me. We were both on the ground and I was able to move quick and get into a dumog like (loose grapple) postition, where I could assess the situation and that's what I did for about 30 sec. When he started to resist and I noticed no other attacks coming so I reverted to BJJ stuff and fell into a knee mount, then a full mount for a little bit of work over. After I gave him a couple of face tags I got up and scanned the situation again. It turns out that the guy was a typical drunk frat punk ex-footballer living out his glory days by deciding to randomly attack the first guy he saw smaller than him. His buddies were griping and fronting, but wouldn't come into the fray. This was the best thing becasue I had three knives that night and if anyone else had jumped in it would have been messy when the cops got there. They had tried to tackle my friends but one guy only got grazed and the other was just too quick for them. After a lot of complaining and chest thumping we all walked away, but the point of the story was that I had only been training grappling for about a year and it made all the differance in the world.

I have to say that sometimes I think that grappling is inevitable no matter where you are and what you are doing. I have heard many people say I would never grapple on the street, well sometimes there is no choice; and this is coming from a guy that is a stand up fighter and hates to grapple. I think I can count the times on one hand that I have been on the ground in a real fight, that's not to say I haven't used a rear naked or two on standing opponents, but the most of the time it definitly seems to revolve around strikes.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Zoran
While bouncing, I did see quite a few brawls also. Although it wasn't 90% that went to the ground, more like 70%. But, most were quite drunk or they tripped over chairs or tables. :shrug:

The statistics of 90% go to the ground could be accurate, or not. I would like to see some statistics on how many were blind stinking drunk.

I agree about the statistics. A couple of issues of Black Belt ago (the one with Hockheim on the cover), they did an article on "street" grappling, and addressed the "90% of all fights go to the ground" claim. Evidently that figure is for institutional fights (i.e. those involving law enforcement in a prison or other type of facility), which makes sense, as an officer would most likely want to take someone to the ground so they could be handcuffed. The figure for "standard" fights was lower -- I don't remember the exact figure (I don't have the article in front of me), but it was closer to the 70% you mentioned.

 

[don bohrer]

When you guys say the fight went to the ground do you mean both guys going down, or one guy stomping, or kicking the other?

 

[arnisador]

The only fight I ever had that went to the ground was in high school and started while we were wrestling in gym. When I say wrestling, I mean Wrestling--we were doing a wrestling segment in gym class and a kid who had been trying to pick a fight with me for some while was wrestling me and began using an illegal technique in an attempt to hurt me. I, uh, returned the favor.

Of course, grappling arts like BJJ include standing clinching techniques as well, so it's a bit more complicated than "going to the ground".

 

[don bohrer]

Yeah, I had a few of those kind of fights. So he went for the wedgee and you counter wedgeed?

 

[arnisador]

First, he'd been trying to start a fight with me for weeks.

He squeezed me around the ribs without one of my arms in between, trying to crush my ribs. In high school you must have an arm trapped when you squeeze like this (or at least, that's how it used to be). I was on all fours--he got to start on top. The reason was that I was on the wrestling team and he wasn't, plus I was 5 pounds heavier than he was. (Yes, this genius decided to wrestle a wrestler who outweighed him. He insisted on it--I had declined to wrestle with him because I knew he was looking to cause trouble, but the gym teacher said I had to accept the challenge of a match.) I sat out, broke his grip, then as he stood from his kneeling position I did a hip-throw, slamming him on his back. Yes, my knee touched first, making it legal. With all the air knocked out of him I slipped on a headlock that was actually a choke--but this gym teacher was the basketball coach and only knew that it wasn't illegal because I had an arm in there. A wrestling coach would have recognized it as a choke/potentially dangerous technique and stopped me. It may be that my technique wasn't clearly illegal but it certainly was a technique that could have been disallowed at the referee's discretion. I had his bicep across his throat and was cutting off his air.

I held him down, choking him, carefully keeping one of his shoulders off the mat. The gym teacher looked at me quizzically, as he could see that I clearly could have pinned him but wasn't doing so. As the kid started turning red, he took to swinging an arm at me and actually trying to punch me. When he started turning blue, he began reaching out toward the gym teacher for help. (He couldn't speak.) The basketball coach looked at him, looked at me, and then made a "pin him" motion with his hands. I did.

The kid never hassled me again. There's someting about being choked purple that changes a person's perspective on things!

 

[don bohrer]

Now for myself I really don't want to learn a complete grappling art, but do want to learn and practice some basic grappling techniques. I am more in favor of practicing situational grappling rather than a system. Now that could change if a big tator grabs and sits on me.

One image that has stuck in my mind for some time was a real prison fight captured on a the security cameras. Three or four guys had dropped another in-mate with a flury of punches and were trying to finish the guy off with football kicks and stomps. The victem did make it to a 3 point stance while trying to get up but was quickly dropped again. I think the beating lasted just over a minute before being stopped.