DF: Can BJJ work in a real fight??????

[Clark Kent]

Can BJJ work in a real fight??????
By TigerClaw - 02-28-2009 10:11 AM
Originally Posted at: Deluxe Forums
====================

If you are attacked by two or more attackers would you want to wrestle them on the ground?

In a combative situation would you want to wrestle them on the ground???

I have read articles from other Masters who have taught the military and they say you do not want to do this, wrestle on the ground. you want to make the situation end as fast as you can, and that involves striking the vital areas.

So are many young men being confused about REAL combat fighting by what they see on TV as the ULTIMATE fighting and the BJJ type fighting also.

I believe that BJJ has many techniques that are good and it is a fighting style. I am just wondering about the wrestling aspect on the ground in a REAL fight.

Kung Fu on the other hand is very effective in a REAL fight.


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[Mz1]

Punching people in the face always works. Boxers have been doing this since ever.

BJJ does include striking, look at Royce Gracie in the early UFC's where he was kicking & punching.

And MMA certainly does include striking. It's mostly standup striking in the UFC nowadays.

Muay Thai...how does elbowing & kneeing someone in the face repeatedly ever not work?

 

[Buka]

These threads are so odd. I know they are meant to encourage discussion, but still. The question "does (insert any fight style here) work in a fight..."
Well, duh.

 

[mograph]

It depends on the opponent's skills.
To believe anything else is simplistic, no matter which martial style is being discussed.

 

[Hanzou]

Articles like that are hilarious.

First off, any time you're fighting more than one person, you're in a lot of trouble, I don't care what you practice. That said, I think its interesting how even detractors of Bjj acknowledge how strong it is on a one on one situation. Here's an idea, try to walk with friends any time possible, and carry a pepper spray, tasers, or so,etching else.

Secondly, any time you're fighting someone, they're trying to take you to the ground. This is done for control purposes. The high benefit of Bjj is that the vast majority of people have no clue of how to fight on the ground. If you do, you have a high advantage, even if your opponent is larger than you are. This high advantage allows you to get back on your feet as quickly as possible, or enter into a dominant position in order to end the confrontation.

 

[Ironcrane]

why do all these scenarios always involve groups of people? sometimes there is actually only one. Bjj has proven itself to be an effective martial art. I think the people who write these things should spend less time wishing bjj was no good, and more time actually training. or pick up some wrestling of their own, so they wont have be so afraid of it.

 

[seasoned]

Nobody wants to get hit and nobody wants to be taken to the ground. If your a striker your window of opportunity is very small. Something needs to happen just prior to being taken down or on your way down. Once you have hit the deck game is on and you better have a ground game for survival.
I picked up a book years ago "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane" and in it something jumped out at me.

(It is well known in China that in order to compete and survive in a battle against other martial styles , each martial style must contain four basic categories of fighting techniques. They are: hand striking, kicking, wrestling, and Qin Na "seizing and controlling techniques").

In chapter (1) of the above book, it goes on to explain that (when these techniques were exported to Japan, they splintered over time to become many styles. For example, punching and kicking became karate, wrestling became judo, and Qin Na became Jujitsu).

Now I'm not saying I buy into the above comments in the above book, but, I am saying it makes a hell of a lot of sense that if you want to save your butt in a real time street confrontation you better have knowledge of the WHOLE ball of wax..........

 

[K-man]

Nobody wants to get hit and nobody wants to be taken to the ground. If your a striker your window of opportunity is very small. Something needs to happen just prior to being taken down or on your way down. Once you have hit the deck game is on and you better have a ground game for survival.
I picked up a book years ago "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane" and in it something jumped out at me.

(It is well known in China that in order to compete and survive in a battle against other martial styles , each martial style must contain four basic categories of fighting techniques. They are: hand striking, kicking, wrestling, and Qin Na "seizing and controlling techniques").

In chapter (1) of the above book, it goes on to explain that (when these techniques were exported to Japan, they splintered over time to become many styles. For example, punching and kicking became karate, wrestling became judo, and Qin Na became Jujitsu).

Now I'm not saying I buy into the above comments in the above book, but, I am saying it makes a hell of a lot of sense that if you want to save your butt in a real time street confrontation you better have knowledge of the WHOLE ball of wax..........

When you put it all together you pretty much have Tegumi or what became Naha-te. The grappling got lost when karate went into the schools. Original judo had everything too until it went into the universities and developed as sport. Jujutsu was already in Japan. I'm not sure that the styles of MA from China evolved into different styles by dividing, more by omission.
:asian:

 

[sopraisso]

Whatever martial art you train as a sport will work best as a sport. As a means of bare handed self defense, not so much. And this obviously applies to BJJ as well as to karate, kung fu or any other art.

If you train with self-defense in mind, you better train something aimed at self-defense properly.

All of this said, if you have to defend yourself, chances are you will go to the ground so you better be ready. But don't deceive yourself: the ground is the worst place where you want to be.

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando Tapatalk

 

[seasoned]

When you put it all together you pretty much have Tegumi or what became Naha-te. The grappling got lost when karate went into the schools. Original judo had everything too until it went into the universities and developed as sport. Jujutsu was already in Japan. I'm not sure that the styles of MA from China evolved into different styles by dividing, more by omission.
:asian:

Agreed, just trying to use a little Ju here. Stating that everything one needs is in the right kata opens up a can of worms one more time.

Those that know know, those that don't don't.........care. Old war horses like you and I see value in a life time of training where this newer generation would like things to move along a little faster.........

 

[Hanzou]

Whatever martial art you train as a sport will work best as a sport. As a means of bare handed self defense, not so much. And this obviously applies to BJJ as well as to karate, kung fu or any other art.

If you train with self-defense in mind, you better train something aimed at self-defense properly.

All of this said, if you have to defend yourself, chances are you will go to the ground so you better be ready. But don't deceive yourself: the ground is the worst place where you want to be.

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando Tapatalk

I disagree with this notion. Mainly because some of the best street fighters are boxers and wrestlers. They know how to hit, how to take a hit, and they tend to be in good to great physical condition. Does anyone believe that Mike Tyson in his prime couldn't beat the crap out of most people?

Saying that a martial athlete can't adjust their skills into a street situation is like saying an NBA player can't adjust to street basketball.

 

[K-man]

Agreed, just trying to use a little Ju here. Stating that everything one needs is in the right kata opens up a can of worms one more time.

Oh, how true this is.

Those that know know, those that don't don't.........care. Old war horses like you and I see value in a life time of training where this newer generation would like things to move along a little faster.........

Beautifully said!

You deserve a 'rep' for this great post but sadly the system won't let me give you one.

 

[ballen0351]

You deserve a 'rep' for this great post but sadly the system won't let me give you one.

I agree so I gave him one for us both

 

[K-man]

I disagree with this notion. Mainly because some of the best street fighters are boxers and wrestlers. They know how to hit, how to take a hit, and they tend to be in good to great physical condition. Does anyone believe that Mike Tyson in his prime couldn't beat the crap out of most people?

And that's about as sensible as saying "does anyone believe that Usain Bolt in his prime couldn't beat most people over 100 metres.

Saying that a martial athlete can't adjust their skills into a street situation is like saying an NBA player can't adjust to street basketball.

You are always fixated on sport and athletes. Most people involved in the martial arts are neither interested in sport or athletes. I couldn't give a toss about who makes the best street fighter. What I want to know is that in the unlikely event they ever need to use their skills, my students, most of whom are over 50, can safely extract themselves from a nasty situation and go home unscathed.

I have no doubt that a person trained in BJJ can use those skills on the street. Is BJJ the best MA to prepare you for a street fight? I would take a number of others as my preference.
:asian:

 

[Steve]

I think you guys are discounting the real self defense value of being able to give a really good hug. Sometimes, the best defense is a good hug. And who is better trained than a good BJJ guy?

 

[K-man]

QUOTE=Steve;1608244]I think you guys are discounting the real self defense value of being able to give a really good hug. Sometimes, the best defense is a good hug. And who is better trained than a good BJJ guy?[/QUOTE]
Steve although I love you dearly you really aren't my type. If I need a hug, please God let it be someone like this!

 

[Hanzou]

You are always fixated on sport and athletes. Most people involved in the martial arts are neither interested in sport or athletes. I couldn't give a toss about who makes the best street fighter. What I want to know is that in the unlikely event they ever need to use their skills, my students, most of whom are over 50, can safely extract themselves from a nasty situation and go home unscathed.

I have no doubt that a person trained in BJJ can use those skills on the street. Is BJJ the best MA to prepare you for a street fight? I would take a number of others as my preference.
:asian:

i brought up sports and athletes because people seem to have the misconception that sport fighters make poor fighters because they fight with "rules". In fact, athletes are more fit, tend to train ther techniques harder, and are better able to handle the adrenaline dump than the martial artist who simply drills in their dojo.

This isn't anything new. Many martial art schools use the boxer or the wrestler as their imaginary adversary. Part of the reason Bjj exploded in popularity as a martial art is because its exponents defeated boxers and wrestlers in a variety of matches. Why? Because most people believe that in a self defense situation, you're going to be fighting either a wannabe boxer, or a wannabe wrestler.

 

[K-man]

i brought up sports and athletes because people seem to have the misconception that sport fighters make poor fighters because they fight with "rules". In fact, athletes are more fit, tend to train ther techniques harder, and are better able to handle the adrenaline dump than the martial artist who simply drills in their dojo.

This isn't anything new. Many martial art schools use the boxer or the wrestler as their imaginary adversary. Part of the reason Bjj exploded in popularity as a martial art is because its exponents defeated boxers and wrestlers in a variety of matches. Why? Because most people believe that in a self defense situation, you're going to be fighting either a wannabe boxer, or a wannabe wrestler.

I believe this is your perception. Perhaps you could provide the research that backs your claim. For example, How many martial artists are athletes? When I was competing in tournaments it was for fun nothing else. None of us would have classed ourselvese as athletes. The 'athletes' were those representing the country or aspiring to. They were training to fight in competition. We didn't train outside our normal training at all and it is my impression that that would also be the vast majority of martial artists.

Who did the tests that showed that the adrenalin dump that students get is different to that of an athlete? In fact I would have thought the person not accustomed to a lot of fighting might get the biggest adrenalin dump when being tested in the dojo.

And for what it's worth, I think most people believe, in a SD situation, they would be fighting a street thug, not a boxer or wrestler, trained or wannabe, but I will be convinced by your evidence.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

I believe this is your perception. Perhaps you could provide the research that backs your claim. For example, How many martial artists are athletes? When I was competing in tournaments it was for fun nothing else. None of us would have classed ourselvese as athletes. The 'athletes' were those representing the country or aspiring to. They were training to fight in competition. We didn't train outside our normal training at all and it is my impression that that would also be the vast majority of martial artists.

I don't believe that the number of martial artists being athletes is the point of this conversation. The point is that someone who is training for Bjj, Wrestling, Boxing, Kickboxing, MMA, Kyokushin, etc. tournaments is going to be a better fighter than the average dojo practitioner. Right now in my Bjj school the people competing are superior to me in grappling because they are training 6 times a week for several hours a day and are on modified exercise plans and diets. While I'm at home working on lesson plans, they're in the gym perfecting their athleticism and grappling skills. Now when I compete again in the Spring, that may change.

Who did the tests that showed that the adrenalin dump that students get is different to that of an athlete? In fact I would have thought the person not accustomed to a lot of fighting might get the biggest adrenalin dump when being tested in the dojo.

Doubtful, since that person is in a safe environment and isn't trying to "win". In a competition, you're fighting an unknown who is trying to defeat you. That's more likely to cause an adrenaline dump than sparring or practicing in class.

And for what it's worth, I think most people believe, in a SD situation, they would be fighting a street thug, not a boxer or wrestler, trained or wannabe, but I will be convinced by your evidence.
:asian:

Street thugs like this?

Or are you only talking about muggers? The point is that people who know how to fight are going to be in a better position than people who don't know how to fight. In general, people who compete are better fighters than people who don't compete.

 

[K-man]

I don't believe that the number of martial artists being athletes is the point of this conversation.

But you keep bringing it up.

The point is that someone who is training for Bjj, Wrestling, Boxing, Kickboxing, MMA, Kyokushin, etc. tournaments is going to be a better fighter than the average dojo practitioner.

In the ring!

Right now in my Bjj school the people competing are superior to me in grappling because they are training 6 times a week for several hours a day and are on modified exercise plans and diets. While I'm at home working on lesson plans, they're in the gym perfecting their athleticism and grappling skills. Now when I compete again in the Spring, that may change.

Good luck to them!

Doubtful, since that person is in a safe environment and isn't trying to "win". In a competition, you're fighting an unknown who is trying to defeat you. That's more likely to cause an adrenaline dump than sparring or practicing in class.

Again, just your opinion.

Street thugs like this?

Yep! Just goes to prove my point.

Or are you only talking about muggers? The point is that people who know how to fight are going to be in a better position than people who don't know how to fight.

Duh! Why are we practising reality based self defence? I would have thought that was about fighting.

In general, people who compete are better fighters than people who don't compete.

Just your totally biased opinion.

I'm about to run up the flag again!