Desperate city

[KenpoEMT]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1475220/posts

``You can do everything for other countries, but you can't do nothing for your own people,'' he added. ``You can go overseas with the military, but you can't get them down here.''

Tourist Debbie Durso of Washington, Mich., said she asked a police officer for assistance and his response was, ``'Go to hell - it's every man for himself.'''

One military policeman was shot in the leg as he and a man scuffled for the MP's rifle, police Capt. Ernie Demmo said. The man was arrested.

``If they're just taking us anywhere, just anywhere, I say praise God,'' said refugee John Phillip. ``Nothing could be worse than what we've been through.''

``This is not a FEMA operation. I haven't seen a single FEMA guy,'' he said. He added: ``We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans.''

FEMA officials said some operations had to be suspended in areas where gunfire has broken out.

A day after Nagin took 1,500 police officers off search-and-rescue duty to try to restore order in the streets, there were continued reports of looting, shootings, gunfire and carjackings - and not all the crimes were driven by greed. When some hospitals try to airlift patients, Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan said, ``there are people just taking potshots at police and at helicopters, telling them, `You better come get my family.'''

Donald Dudley, a 55-year-old New Orleans seafood merchant, complained that when he and other hungry refugees broke into the kitchen of the convention center and tried to prepare food, the National Guard chased them away.
``They pulled guns and told us we had to leave that kitchen or they would blow our damn brains out,'' he said. ``We don't want their help. Give us some vehicles and we'll get ourselves out of here!

This is just awful. I really didn't expect the situation in New Orleans to be allowed to deteriorate as it has. The response to the hurricane seems as if it is being made-up as needed. Was there truely no plan in place? This is not the response that I expect from my government. It borders on inept.

http://www.newschannel5.tv/2005/9/1/4255/Taking-refuge-in-the-Astrodome
[story on link may change; it is a 'breaking news' link]

HOUSTON -- NEWSCHANNEL 5 crews were in Houston as some desperate refugees arrived in a stolen bus.
...
About 100 people packed into the stolen bus. They were the first to enter the Houston Astrodome, but they weren't exactly welcomed
...


"If it werent for him right there," he said, "we'd still be in New Orleans underwater. He got the bus for us."

Eighteen-year-old Jabbor Gibson jumped aboard the bus as it sat abandoned on a street in New Orleans and took control.

"I just took the bus and drove all the way here...seven hours straight,' Gibson admitted. "I hadn't ever drove a bus." The teen packed it full of complete strangers and drove to Houston. He beat thousands of evacuees slated to arrive there.
...


Authorities eventually allowed the renegade passengers inside the dome. But the 18-year-old who ensured their safety could find himself in a world of trouble for stealing the school bus. "I dont care if I get blamed for it ," Gibson said, "as long as I saved my people."

What do you want to bet that they prosecute this young man? I say let him walk; he was just trying to escape death. He wasn't being selfish; look at how he packed the bus with complete strangers.


A picture of all of the buses that should have been used to help evacuate people:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015

 

[KenpoEMT]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/02/D8CC4IMG0.html

A day before President Bush headed to the hurricane-ravaged South, Mayor Ray Nagin lashed out at federal officials, telling a local radio station "they don't have a clue what's going on down here."

Federal officials expressed sympathy but quickly defended themselves, saying they, too, were overwhelmed by the catastrophe that hit the Gulf Coast region on Monday. Nagin's interview Thursday night on WWL radio came as President Bush planned to visit Gulf Coast communities battered by Hurricane Katrina, a visit aimed at alleviating criticism that he engineered a too- little, too-late response.

"They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn _ excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed," Nagin said. Nagin said he told Bush in a recent conversation that "we had an incredible crisis here and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice ... I have been all around this city and that I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshal resources and we are outmanned in just about every respect."

"We're also diverting supplies to the convention center which I learned about yesterday and that area. ... This is an absolutely catastrophic disaster," he said.

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

Oh, great. Go ahead and quote the mayor who completely dropped the ball in an article which looks like a study case for media bias. You do remember that it was Bush who announced a state of emergency on 26 August for Louisiana, starting the process for aid, and had to personally call for full evacuation of the city on 28 August because the mayor was delaying, right?

 

[Makalakumu]

Oh, great. Go ahead and quote the mayor who completely dropped the ball in an article which looks like a study case for media bias. You do remember that it was Bush who announced a state of emergency on 26 August for Louisiana, starting the process for aid, and had to personally call for full evacuation of the city on 28 August because the mayor was delaying, right?

The President can't be totally blamed for government innefficiency. He didn't write the bill that cut flood control money from New Orleans in favor of pork projects like studying dusty roads in Oklahoma. Yeah, he signed the bill, but can you honestly tell me that a man who doesn't even read the newspaper is going to read a few thousand pages in the highway bill.

 

[7starmantis]

Does no one realize that the cutting of money was a bad idea but happened way before anyone could really know what was to happen? Does no one realize that the 100 year old levee system was not built to withstand anything over a cat 3 even when the full money was allocated?

Everyone is jumping on this cutting of money which has almost nothing to do with the situation right now. Everyone is so quick to point the finger. I say take your fingers and go to LA and make yourself usefull saving the lifes of the stranded people. Oh wait, you might get shot doing that.

7sm

 

[michaeledward]

Does no one realize that the cutting of money was a bad idea but happened way before anyone could really know what was to happen?


Does no one realize that the 100 year old levee system was not built to withstand anything over a cat 3 even when the full money was allocated?

7sm

You're kidding, right?

In 1995 six citizens died in Louisiana because of flooding. From that incident, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project. This project made it clear that hundreds of millions of dollars were needed to maintain the integrity of the levee system. Some 450 million dollars were spent between 1995 and 2002. In 2002, with tax cuts and an invasion on the horizon, money for SELA was cut. More than 250 million dollars were on the drawing board for continued projects that were never received.

We will never know if those money cuts ... would have prevented the 17th Street Levee from deteriorating or not. But we do know that the money was on the board because of known danger.

 

[michaeledward]

The President is currently speaking about sending in Active Duty Military forces form the 82nd Airborne, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, 1st Cavalry Division to assist with security, search and rescue.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail, eh?

 

[Makalakumu]

The President is currently speaking about sending in Active Duty Military forces form the 82nd Airborne, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, 1st Cavalry Division to assist with security, search and rescue.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail, eh?

Fifty cents out of every federal tax dollar is spent on the military...

I hope they have adequate training and can really help these people.

 

[michaeledward]

Fifty cents out of every federal tax dollar is spent on the military...

I hope they have adequate training and can really help these people.

I hope our military is trained to kill people and capture territory.

I hope they are not trained to be a civil police force.

I can see no viable reason for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force to be deployed to New Orleans .... Sure, they leveled Fallujah, but New Orleans is already leveled. Of course, the President said that there were 'members' of these units being deployed. There is no reason to think the entire 1MEF is going to the delta.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail.

 

[Makalakumu]

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail.

Yet no one ever questions the wisdom of putting all of our eggs in one basket...so to speak.

Our national guard receive training to deal with civil emergencies. Unfortunately, most of them are deployed thousands of miles away from our civil emergencies...

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

Yeah, he signed the bill, but can you honestly tell me that a man who doesn't even read the newspaper is going to read a few thousand pages in the highway bill.

I won't say most all Congressman do either.

But "a man who doesn't even read the newspaper" isn't the best of logic. I don't read the newspaper yet I am highly informed. The inundation of media bias in many journalism sources is reason enough for me not to.

Furthermore, you do realize the president receives far more information on events in the world during his daily brief than do most people on this entire planet.

We will never know if those money cuts ... would have prevented the 17th Street Levee from deteriorating or not. But we do know that the money was on the board because of known danger.

Actually, the Army Corps of Engineers has already addressed that. The levee was actually recently upgraded and in complete condition when Hurricane Katrina hit. Only, it was decades ago the decision was made to have it deal with level 3 hurricanes, and Katrina was a level 4...

Our national guard receive training to deal with civil emergencies. Unfortunately, most of them are deployed thousands of miles away from our civil emergencies...

Wrong. Dead wrong. Over 75 percent of the National Guard are available nation-wide.

Fifty cents out of every federal tax dollar is spent on the military...

So...just where in the world are you getting these numbers? Not the national budget, that's for sure.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.govpro.com/SiteMap_500/strArticleId/103573/ViewArticle.asp

42% of the national guard is deployed overseas. Many, not most, but more then 25%. This percentage is rising. Oh well 9% off...at least I wasn't 17% off...

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

48% of the federal budget is spent on defense.

http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/index.cfm?lesson=EM306

Congress increases this figure by 20%. 48% * .2 = 9.6% + 48% = 57.6%.

57.6 cents out of every federal dollar is military spending.

upnorthkyosa

PS - 81.1% of our national debt is military spending.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1253

 

[michaeledward]

Actually, the Army Corps of Engineers has already addressed that. The levee was actually recently upgraded and in complete condition when Hurricane Katrina hit. Only, it was decades ago the decision was made to have it deal with level 3 hurricanes, and Katrina was a level 4...

Please source this.

Last thing I read is that last years proposed budget was 56 million dollars for levee projects, but this was cut to less than 11 million dollars, which allowed only for further study, but not actual work on the levees.

I will be pleased to see your source from the Corps of Engineers.

 

[michaeledward]

Actually, the Army Corps of Engineers has already addressed that. The levee was actually recently upgraded and in complete condition when Hurricane Katrina hit. Only, it was decades ago the decision was made to have it deal with level 3 hurricanes, and Katrina was a level 4...

You know, I really hate it when people pull **** like this out of their *******s ... Here is what the actual Army Corps of engineers has to say about it.

Taken from this site.
http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/response/HURPROJ.asp?prj=lkpon1

FY 2005 BUDGET/EFFORT. The President’s budget for fiscal year 2005 was $3.9 million. Congress increased it to $5.5 million. This was insufficient to fund new construction contracts. Engineering design, and construction supervision and inspection efforts are also included. Seven contracts are being delayed due to lack funds. They include the floodgate at the Canadian National Railroad and the Gulf South Floodwall and Reach 2A and 2B levee enlargement, all in St. Charles Parish; Reach 1 and Reach 4 Levee Enlargements in Jefferson Parish; Pump Station No. 3 Fronting Protection, Robert E. Lee Bridge replacement and the New Orleans East Back Levee enlargement, all in Orleans Parish; and the Bienvenu to Dupre Levee Enlargement in St. Bernard Parish. The Pontchartrain Levee District is providing funds to construct the Gulf South Pipeline floodwall in St. Charles Parish. The East Jefferson Levee District is providing funds to construct the Reach 1 and Reach 4 levee enlargements in Jefferson Parish. Louis Armstrong International Airport is funding the Canadian National Railroad floodgate as part of the rehabilitation of the east-west runway.

FY 2006 BUDGET/EFFORT. The President’s budget for fiscal year 2005 is $3.0 million. This will be insufficient to fund new construction contracts. We could spend $20 million if the funds were provided. These funds are necessary to maintain the project schedule and to meet our contractual and local sponsor commitments.

IMPACTS OF BUDGET SHORTFALL. In Orleans Parish, two major pump stations are threatened by hurricane storm surges. Major contracts need to be awarded to provide fronting protection for them. Also, several levees have settled and need to be raised to provide the design protection. The current funding shortfalls in fiscal year 2005 and fiscal year 2006 will prevent the Corps from addressing these pressing needs.

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

Army Corps of Engineers:http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...46.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

In a telephone interview with reporters, corps officials said that although portions of the flood-protection levees remain incomplete, the levees near Lake Pontchartrain that gave way—inundating much of the city—were completed and in good condition before the hurricane.

However, they noted that the levees were designed for a Category 3 hurricane and couldn’t handle the ferocious winds and raging waters from Hurricane Katrina, which was a Category 4 storm when it hit the coastline. The decision to build levees for a Category 3 hurricane was made decades ago based on a cost-benefit analysis.

“I don’t see that the level of funding was really a contributing factor in this case,” said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the corps. “Had this project been fully complete, it is my opinion that based on the intensity of this storm that the flooding of the business district and the French Quarter would have still taken place.”


Deployment: http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins200509020719.asp


look at the numbers should dispel that notion. Take the Army for example. There are 1,012,000 soldiers on active duty, in the Reserves, or in the National Guard. Of them, 261,000 are deployed overseas in 120 countries. Iraq accounts for 103,000 soldiers, or 10.2 percent of the Army.
That’s all? Yes, 10.2 percent. That datum is significant in itself, a good one to keep handy the next time someone talks about how our forces are stretched too thin, our troops are at the breaking point, and so forth. If you add in Afghanistan (15,000) and the support troops in Kuwait (10,000) you still only have 12.6 percent.

So where are the rest? 751,000 (74.2 percent) are in the U.S. About half are active duty, and half Guard and Reserve. The Guard is the real issue of course — the Left wants you to believe that the country has been denuded of its citizen soldiers, and that Louisiana has suffered inordinately because Guardsmen and women who would have been available to be mobilized by the state to stop looting and aid in reconstruction are instead risking their lives in Iraq.

Not hardly. According to Lieutenant General H. Steven Blum, chief of the National Guard Bureau, 75 percent of the Army and Air National Guard are available nationwide. In addition, the federal government has agreed since the conflict in Iraq started not to mobilize more than 50 percent of Guard assets in any given state, in order to leave sufficient resources for governors to respond to emergencies.

In Louisiana only about a third of Guard personnel are deployed, and they will be returning in about a week as part of their normal rotation. The Mississippi Guard has 40 percent overseas. But Louisiana and Mississippi are not alone in this effort — under terms of Emergency Management Assistance Compacts (EMACs) between the states, Guard personnel are heading to the area from West Virginia, D.C., New Mexico, Utah, Missouri, Ohio, Oklahoma, Alabama, Washington, Indiana, Georgia, Kentucky, and Michigan. Thousands have already arrived, and more will over the next day or so.


Date of your article: April 2004
Date of mine: Yesterday

 

[Makalakumu]

Hmm...lets see here, govpro or right wing online journal?

 

[michaeledward]

Date of your article: April 2004
Date of mine: Yesterday

Foreshadowing ...

Excuse making ...

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

48% of the federal budget is spent on defense.

http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/index.cfm?lesson=EM306

Congress increases this figure by 20%. 48% * .2 = 9.6% + 48% = 57.6%.

57.6 cents out of every federal dollar is military spending.

upnorthkyosa

First off, the methodology is pretty flawed and heavily biased from your sources.
Anyone that does things like leave Social Security out of the budget is a moron. Your original statement included "federal tax dollars", but even if it didn't, you still couldn't use this argument.


Lets take a look:

Analysts differ on how much of the debt stems from the military; other groups estimate 50% to 60%. We use 80% because we believe if there had been no military spending most (if not all) of the national debt would have been eliminated. For further explanation, see box at bottom of this page.

(I did and was unsatisfied...just more methodology aimed at liberally adding higher and higher numbers...pun intended...)


Next...
So, you quote some random MATH PROBLEM out of a simulation test from an economics website? Here's something directly from the site

(Note: While some events in this scenario reflect actual events, others are hypothetical for the purposes of this exercise. Budget figures are actual White House projections of 2002 spending and revenues as of September 2002)

Note that even before the math problem introduced the 20 percent increase, it was still $344 billion out of a total spending $2,052 billion. As in the original numbers were based on real-life events.

Looks like you need to do the math...

PS - 81.1% of our national debt is military spending.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1253

Segment from article:

To find out how much of the government's net interest payments on the national debt ought to be attributed to past debt-funded defense spending requires a considerable amount of calculation. I have added up all past deficits (minus surpluses) since 1916 (when the debt was nearly zero), prorated according to each year's ratio of national security spending—military, veterans, and international affairs—to total federal spending, expressing everything in dollars of constant purchasing power. This sum is equal to 81.1 percent of the value of the national debt held by the public in 2002.

He plays with these kinds of numbers all throughout his entire methodology. He takes one-time expenditures and makes their additions annual. He does a lot of things, but he definitely doesn't convince me of having a sound argument.

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

Hmm...lets see here, govpro or right wing online journal?

How about Chief of the National Guard Bureau?

And as far as "excuse making", it isn't. You should try and use facts in arguments, they help.

 

[Makalakumu]

Has the government reduced troop levels since 2004?