Delayed Sword Gone Bad?

[Andrew Green]

Extend your chi into the ground becoming difficult to move

Or...

Dropping your weight in a anotomically sound position that makes you difficult to move.

Depends on your chi leanings

 

[Zoran]

No, sprawling is your best course of action if you want to stay on your feet...?

Agreed, and it should be in everyones basic techs (my school has it). You also need a tech or two to do if the sprawl can't happen or the opportunity is lost.

 

[Carol]

Extend your chi into the ground becoming difficult to move

Or...

Dropping your weight in a anotomically sound position that makes you difficult to move.

Depends on your chi leanings

:asian: :asian: :asian:

Thank you so much.

 

[Andrew Green]

Also see this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34355

I'm going to look like a noob again...and ask for your forgiveness for yet another sidebar...

Rooting? This is something I don't really have a good grasp of. Could I trouble you again for a hand in understanding this?

 

[Rick Wade]

If the kick had been executed properly
(not a shot to the groin) trying to displace the hips up and back the technique would have worked. I work out with allot of guys from MMA. I basically use yellow and orange belt material. You would be surprised that when techniques are executed with true intent how effective they are and how little grafting you need.

I do realize that most kenpoist will not agree with me on this but this is what makes us great.

V/R

Rick

 

[HKphooey]

Rick, I tend to agree with you. I have always aimed the front kick to the lead leg. That way, if I miss the block, I take out the knee.


Also, I am not stating that rooting is the only option, just stating that (IMO) the technique had many holes in it. Sprawling works well once the individual is very proficient, but can also cause you to lose the initial base/base you had.

I do agree the student needs multiple options.

 

[bujuts]

First, we should recognize that the attacker was demonstrating a variation of the attack while the attackee was executing a half-hearted response. The attackee was going through a few motions to set the stage for a particular lesson, and its not surprising that he wasn't doing it full bore in his defense. Consequently, the change in attack made it appear as though his version of DS wouldn't work.

But, on the execution of DS, I would offer the following which may or may not have been brought up in the discussion that day.

1) The right arm lost the bracing angle slightly. This is a common mistake when people "cock" the hand back for the knife hand strike. This leaves only the lead deltoid to withstand the attacker's mass should it keep coming, which it did here. Its just no competition in this case, the incoming mass will dominate that single muscle group with absolutely no problem. What appears to happen here is as the arm was extended for a strike, it was snuffed up by Clyde's shoulder as he dove in. Also, if you pause the clip on the block, you see that it tracked the arm well past where an inward block belongs, and started moving downward, further exposing the deltoid.

As I understand it, Ed Parker talked about rounding the corner and elongating the circle. In DS, we have an opportunity to round the corner, and the corner in this case being the intersection of two paths of action, the block and the strike. Keeping in context with the "attack the attack" premise, the purpose of that right hand is to deliver a stunning strike to the neck, collar bone, etc. It should hit with a full bracing angle supported by the mass landing simultaneously with the landing of the front foot after the kick (graviational engagement). The the inward block is simply an aligned motion to the opposite side of the outer rim, clearing the debris of the incoming arm prior to its tracking of the offending arm into the neck.

So, maintaining this bracing angle may or may not have thwarted that takedown, depending on the integrity of the neutral bow. What a bracing angle would have done - whether snuffed by the attackers shoulder, chest, neck, or whatever - is maintain the defender's control over his own Outer Rim. He may have been driven back, or the attacker may have slipped to the side, but the bracing angle would remain their to maintain his critical space.

2) A "snap" kick will work only so well here. It might crush the genitals into supporting tissue, yes, but the leg must act as a battering ram to displace the hips. When we practice this, the target with the kick is the pelvic girdle. The genitals are just tissue covering our true target - the skeleton.

3) I personally have issues with first stepping back to then rotate into the neutral bow, primarily because of the time it takes. This is a very common practice, and for that reason I may come across as being off my rocker. But, bracing angles and control of the Outer Rim should be achieved instantaneously at the onset of violence, even a spinal response.

As an illustration, examine the amount of time it takes to get from a natural standing position to a neutral bow, in any direction. Now put someone in front of you who really knows how to shoot in, say at your legs' distance from you. Try to hit your neutral bow in time to establish a base before they're on top of you. Its not easy. Now compare that to the time to raise your arms up to essentially two bracing angles. You'll likely find that your arms simply get there quicker, and even though you can be blown back, you can still maintain control of your Outer Rim.

Its interesting to observe that its quicker to bring a fortified defense of your your Outer Rim than it is to establish your neutral bow. Also, the primary driving force available to you in the natural standing position is rotation.

All in all though, I still don't see this as a DS gone bad. Again this DS was executed half heartedly because there was a lesson going on, and it could have been that the scene previous to this clip was a series of slow motions for illustrative purposes. He may have done the same thing here, only the attacker bumped it up unexpectedly. All of the sudden, its posted on the internet and all the world thinks this is how kenpo moves, or that this is how that particular practitioner moves all the time. Its not fair to the defender to intimate that this was representative of his true response.

Anyway, good discussion. I look forward to more.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
Universal Kenpo Federation

 

[BallistikMike]

...
Dropping your weight in a anotomically sound position that makes you difficult to move.
...

Yeah ^^^^ Rooting. I said nothing about chi LOL!!!

Root yourself to the spot. Also contains a lot of pummeling in order for it to work effectively. Which translates well to hooks and elbows as you swim for inside control.

Wide kneel in the EPAK stance curriculum emulates a close idea of it.

Basically a staggered boxer's lead that flows and drops weight once your lead leg has been snugged up to chest and they are trying to pick and sweep you or drive you back. It breaks there balance by getting your hips above the hold and sometime above there shoulder if you catch them right. If your strong enough or have the leverage at certain times during the encounter it also allows you to actually complete a sprawl and really drive down on them. Which brings us back to full circle and a sprawl is the highest perctentage counter to a leg tackle (shoot).

You can also stuff the head on a poor shoot. A pivot step has been known to work well as you circle around to back while you stuff down.

If I remember that video right Clyde is grabbing the kickers leg (attempted kick) and driving back. Here is where that "rooting" would come into play and you should get comfortable having a grappler or MMA having you in that position and understand how to drive your weight down through the opponent to stop him from breaking your balance of getting you on your toes (where the take down will happen). In the cage or ring you will have a fence or ropes to stop the drive back, which could be a bar, wall or car so I say understand the sprawl, the root after a leg grab, breaking or leveraging through and continue the sprawl and finally getting up on your toes against a wall and learning how to stuff the attackers head and regain your footing.

ah...delayed sword, Had to stay on topic.

 

[JamesB]

If the kick had been executed properly
(not a shot to the groin) trying to displace the hips up and back the technique would have worked. I work out with allot of guys from MMA. I basically use yellow and orange belt material. You would be surprised that when techniques are executed with true intent how effective they are and how little grafting you need.

I do realize that most kenpoist will not agree with me on this but this is what makes us great.

:asian:

 

[JamesB]

First, we should recognize that the attacker was demonstrating a variation of the attack while the attackee was executing a half-hearted response. The attackee was going through a few motions to set the stage for a particular lesson, and its not surprising that he wasn't doing it full bore in his defense. Consequently, the change in attack made it appear as though his version of DS wouldn't work.

agreed, but I think that was the whole point of the clip.

1) The right arm lost the bracing angle slightly. This is a common mistake when people "cock" the hand back for the knife hand strike. This leaves only the lead deltoid to withstand the attacker's mass should it keep coming, which it did here. Its just no competition in this case, the incoming mass will dominate that single muscle group with absolutely no problem. What appears to happen here is as the arm was extended for a strike, it was snuffed up by Clyde's shoulder as he dove in. Also, if you pause the clip on the block, you see that it tracked the arm well past where an inward block belongs, and started moving downward, further exposing the deltoid.

my inward block for DS goes to the attacker's right shoulder, provides a great way to halt any further incoming motion.

2) A "snap" kick will work only so well here. It might crush the genitals into supporting tissue, yes, but the leg must act as a battering ram to displace the hips. When we practice this, the target with the kick is the pelvic girdle. The genitals are just tissue covering our true target - the skeleton.

In the ideal-phase for DS I understand that the snap-kick is a gauging kick, used to manipulate the attacker into a posture that is more susceptable to the incoming hand-sword. But I agree, in this case a kick to control the hips would be more appropriate.

3) I personally have issues with first stepping back to then rotate into the neutral bow, primarily because of the time it takes. This is a very common practice, and for that reason I may come across as being off my rocker. But, bracing angles and control of the Outer Rim should be achieved instantaneously at the onset of violence, even a spinal response.

This was discussed recently in the 'short-form-1' topic which I think you also participated in. In my experience it is more efficient to transition through a forward-bow prior to rotating out to a neutral. Not only is it faster to get there but the resulting stability of the neutral is far greater and is what one would need when dealing with the attack as shown in the video clip.


Here's an SL4 version of DS done slowly to demonstrate their technique:

Delayed-Sword

 

[Doc]

Came across this video clip and thought I'd post it here for discussion. I know that we've had discussion on here in the past about pinning vs not pinning when doing this technique. I thought it was interesting to see a possible follow up on the opponents part if you don't do the pin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxESlzJvgPg&search=kenpo

Mike

First, most teach Delayed Sword for a grab if the follow the Web of Knowledge. Second, how many times I said that if you step backwards to kick you're going to be taken down? lastly, seems the guy doing the technique had a pretty good head lock on the guy when the technique failed. What was the point of this again?

 

[Zoran]

First, most teach Delayed Sword for a grab if the follow the Web of Knowledge. Second, how many times I said that if you step backwards to kick you're going to be taken down? lastly, seems the guy doing the technique had a pretty good head lock on the guy when the technique failed. What was the point of this again?

Maybe the real point should be that you shouldn't throw such a sloppy takedown, or at least learn how to do one properly before you do.

 

[Carol]

Is that the final answer?

For my young and impressionable mind?

Err....impressionable, anyway....

 

[Andrew Green]

I think it was that if the "attacker" always stands there rather then experimenting with his options, your techniques might not work as you think they do.

 

[pete]

.... or epak techniques are desinged in the ideal state to defend against a specific type of attack based on environment and target availability, and will cancel the attackers dimensions to prevent successive attacks.

when a technique is used against a different attack, or the initial attack is not fully comitted and changes to something else, then the technique must be ARMM'd to the changes in environment and/or target availability.

 

[jazkiljok]

I think it was that if the "attacker" always stands there rather then experimenting with his options, your techniques might not work as you think they do.

at some point you either join the MMA crowd and practice sport basics as methodology to contend with street situations based on confirmable success with ring applications or you accept that you have to have something to teach based on defined parameters. all other martial arts nonsport based teach applications with define parameters-- the attacker is always dispatched according to script-- the script is used to practice and reinforce solid basics. this is how one teaches.

like Mr. Brown pointed out-- the demo showed two slopping executions of which neither proves anything or makes any point ultimately. I'm assuming Mr. Brown would probably have a different result in his execution than the defender is this vid clip.

but if the real question supposedly being posed was, "can delayed sword work against a punch?"-- isn't that simply asking if an inward block can be effective against a punch?

 

[pete]

-- isn't that simply asking if an inward block can be effective against a punch?

more precisely: an inward block, while retreating, and not controlling the orbit of the blocked arm.

without those specifics you could be talking about 5-swords, but those are some of the specifics that are taken into account to make 5-swords effective in the ideal state.

 

[punisher73]

I guess the thing I noticed and no one else has pointed out is that it was a roundhouse punch to the midsection. I have NEVER seen that tech taught for that. I have only seen it taught as a counter to a shoulder grab or a straight punch to the head.

Also, it was a sloppy take down because he does a sliding stepthrough and then tries to shoot. If the guy is knowledgeable enough to know about faking a punch to setup for a takedown he is going to use a jab most likely and not shift his balance like he did.

I think what the clip illustrates best though is when you have a preconceived notion about what the attacker is going to do and he doesn't do that, then your gameplan goes out the window and you are just reacting instead of acting.

 

[jazkiljok]

more precisely: an inward block, while retreating, and not controlling the orbit of the blocked arm.

without those specifics you could be talking about 5-swords, but those are some of the specifics that are taken into account to make 5-swords effective in the ideal state.

good point.

 

[jazkiljok]

I guess the thing I noticed and no one else has pointed out is that it was a roundhouse punch to the midsection. I have NEVER seen that tech taught for that. I have only seen it taught as a counter to a shoulder grab or a straight punch to the head.

Also, it was a sloppy take down because he does a sliding stepthrough and then tries to shoot. If the guy is knowledgeable enough to know about faking a punch to setup for a takedown he is going to use a jab most likely and not shift his balance like he did.

did notice that too-also a good point

I think what the clip illustrates best though is when you have a preconceived notion about what the attacker is going to do and he doesn't do that, then your gameplan goes out the window and you are just reacting instead of acting.

but when someone tells you to do delayed sword and then throws a kick, tackle, shoe at you-- well, it's beyond a preconceived notion- you're being asked to do something so you comply-- then the guy demoing goes "surprise" your tek failed. might as well just throw a punch at the guy--see what he does- go to critique from there. if the lesson is going to have any point, it will inevitably still be about basics.

one other observation... if this is a demo that 's suppose to be all about adjustments etc for some what if--- and proves simply that you have no base, no block, no kick... how does all this improve with a lapel grab? what mechanism is a grab, a "deadhand" giving you to make your block/strike more effective, your base, more stablized-- your kick penetrating?