Delayed Sword Gone Bad?

[MJS]

Came across this video clip and thought I'd post it here for discussion. I know that we've had discussion on here in the past about pinning vs not pinning when doing this technique. I thought it was interesting to see a possible follow up on the opponents part if you don't do the pin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxESlzJvgPg&search=kenpo

Mike

 

[michaeledward]

With the ability to pause the video playback, and replay the video, there are a couple of things to note.

First, the initial block missed on a couple of points; it was above the elbow, which means the defender would have been clocked if the attackers intent was that roundhouse punch and it was not effective in stunning the attackers' use of the arm - make your block a strike.

The attacker stated he was going to throw a punch, the conclusion was that there was going to be a hand block. Of course, the attacker new he was playing a game with that round house, so his punch wasn't coming in with full force. It was a feint. Not knowing what the class was working on prior to this clip, the attacker may also have known the next move was kick (if, for instance, they were working Delayed Sword).

Lastly, at the end of the motion, it looks like the defender has the attacker in a pretty effective headlock. Although, the fight may have gone to the ground before that point.

All the cards seem to be in the attackers hand .... as he is presenting the material .... but the result seems to be, at best a draw. Obscure the defenders actions a bit more with uncertainty, and we could have clearer point of view.

 

[ChrisWTK]

See this topic from Bullshido, it might explain the video more for you.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34859

 

[JamesB]

Came across this video clip and thought I'd post it here for discussion. I know that we've had discussion on here in the past about pinning vs not pinning when doing this technique. I thought it was interesting to see a possible follow up on the opponents part if you don't do the pin.Mike

From the attacker's point of view it didn't look like Delayed Sword - which is as I understand, a grab technique. The video seemed to show the attacker (Mr O'Briant) not committing to the grab, and rather punching instead, then continuing in with forward momentum for a low tackle. i.e the intent was not to grab, but to distract with a punch then tackle and take down.Can't tell from the video alone what the purpose of the demonstration was - maybe a 'what if' scenario - i.e. the defender interprets the 'attack' and instinctively step back to execute Delayed Sword, only to find that there was no grab and now there is a bigger problem to deal with (the tackle). From my understanding, if there is no pin, there is no Delayed Sword. Another technique needs to be substituted here instead. The most important thing is to establish a stable base and deal with the punching arm. The clip didn't in my opinion illustrate this idea but then I think the purpose of the demonstration was to explore what if something goes wrong, rather than focus on what happens when you get it right..

 

[JamesB]

See this topic from Bullshido, it might explain the video more for you.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34859

hmm yes, in that thread Mr O'Briant clearly states that the purpose of the demonstration was to make clear why he doesn't teach D.S. against a punch - and the clip shows what happened when the defender tried to apply D.S. against an attack it is was not designed for.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think the same thing I thought when I saw this on that other place, right idea, but he seriously needs to work on those takedown skills

 

[Carol]

*scratching my head*

OK I'll bite. Uhhh...what is the point?

Is the attack of delayed sword such a controversy that an intstructor needs to demonstrate on video how it does NOT work with an attack he does NOT do?

I feel like I missed a memo somewhere.

 

[pete]

coupla points:

1. the clip captures one part of a seminar and shows how DS in the ideal phase is not effective in cancelling all dimensions when the attack is a right punch.
2. what is not shown in the clip, but was taught in the class, was how DS in ideal phase is effective against a committed right handed grab, is not effective against a non-committed right handed grab, and how to ARMM the technique to apply it against the right punch without making yourself vunerable to the shoot. (ARMM: Adjust, Regulate, Monitor, Modify)

 

[MJS]

*scratching my head*

OK I'll bite. Uhhh...what is the point?

Is the attack of delayed sword such a controversy that an intstructor needs to demonstrate on video how it does NOT work with an attack he does NOT do?

I feel like I missed a memo somewhere.

Hi Carol,

There has been discussion on this technique in the past, specifically on the nature of the attack. Some schools doing a grab, and some doing it off of a punch. Speaking for myself, I've been taught both ways. I don't want to speak for Clyde, and I may be wrong, but I believe the point he was trying to make, was that its important to fully understand the proper attack, as well as taking into consideration any "what ifs" that may happen along the way. I highly doubt he is bashing the technique, but showing what could happen if its not properly taught.

Mike

 

[Carol]

Hi Carol,

There has been discussion on this technique in the past, specifically on the nature of the attack. Some schools doing a grab, and some doing it off of a punch. Speaking for myself, I've been taught both ways. I don't want to speak for Clyde, and I may be wrong, but I believe the point he was trying to make, was that its important to fully understand the proper attack, as well as taking into consideration any "what ifs" that may happen along the way. I highly doubt he is bashing the technique, but showing what could happen if its not properly taught.

Mike

Ahhhhh those darn "what ifs"

OK that plus the demo being part of a bigger picture makes a lot more sense to me now. I didn't think he would be bashing the technique...but...sometimes I need the obvious explained to me


Thanks!

 

[HKphooey]

coupla points:

1. the clip captures one part of a seminar and shows how DS in the ideal phase is not effective in cancelling all dimensions when the attack is a right punch.
2. what is not shown in the clip, but was taught in the class, was how DS in ideal phase is effective against a committed right handed grab, is not effective against a non-committed right handed grab, and how to ARMM the technique to apply it against the right punch without making yourself vunerable to the shoot. (ARMM: Adjust, Regulate, Monitor, Modify)

Thanks.

I would also say the student learned what happens when he doe not solidify his base as he steps back. He never had a solid stance.

See thread on Stability...http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34343

 

[Touch Of Death]

The problem was that once the attack became a tackle the DS doer didn't sprawl and kept attempting delayed sword. He was taken out of time.
Sean

 

[pete]

The problem was that once the attack became a tackle the DS doer didn't sprawl

sprawl is not necessarily the best response. if the guy is looking to shoot your legs, he wants you down because he may have an advantage there. a kenpoists advantage is to remain standup vs the grappler and sprawl perhaps as a last resort.

 

[Andrew Green]

No, sprawling is your best course of action if you want to stay on your feet...?

 

[Carol]

No, sprawling is your best course of action if you want to stay on your feet...?

Gents,forgive the sidebar... I haven't done enough grappling to really know what sprawling is. Would one of you mind taking a moment to explain?

 

[Andrew Green]

This should give you the basic idea:

http://innovativema.ca/forum/view.php?pg=doubleleg

 

[Carol]

WOW!

You ROCK Andrew! Thank you so much! :asian:

 

[BallistikMike]

Sprawling is a very high percentage way of staying on your feet against a shoot.

As well as allowing you to get on top and over your opponent when done correctly.

Also it is not the only way to stop a shoot. Strength, size, natural ability come into play. Not many will agree with me but rooting (lack of a better term) is a pretty good way also and you see it quite often in MMA competiton. The shot was taken, the leg has been grabbed, but the guy/gal being grabbed doesn't let the leg get picked or allow the sweep to happen if it goes high.

Of course a number of factors may have caused this like a bad shoot, no forward drive, no set up to the shoot, etc...

I find it quite funny how some of the grappling crowed looks down on the stability of a good stance and when it stops a shot dead in its tracks they blame the shot as being bad instead of the stance/stability being good.

Stance training is the most important part of training imho. It creates everything else.

 

[Andrew Green]

"Rooting" will not stop a takedown, what you are seeing is more then just "rooting", you also got to break down the angles, know what he can do, break his posture, etc. It is not "stance" that keeps them up. There is also a whizzer or a cross face or something else in there, but the most reliable defence is the sprawl, hands down. Other stuff can come into play, but without a good sprawl to back it you're going to end up on your back.

 

[Carol]

I'm going to look like a noob again...and ask for your forgiveness for yet another sidebar...

Rooting? This is something I don't really have a good grasp of. Could I trouble you again for a hand in understanding this?