Defending against a dog

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
I've been in law enforcement since 1977 and am also a police training officer and was involved in the training of police dogs. The Calibre Press (Charles Remsberg & Dennis Anderson) have put on many Street Survival seminars only for law enforcment officers and military since the 1980's. They also have published several books. They really research their subjects and are pro martial arts for police training as seen by their many guest instructors. They state that a black belt karate expert would stand about a 90 per cent chance of surviving an attack from a trained Doberman. Now, they say survive, not win. I have raised German Shepards and have had Dobbies and Rotties in the past and I'll say this through the experience of breaking up dog fights. If they animal is totally committed and I mean COMMITED, then good luck! Animals are like people. We all know that if an opponent is totally committed then we have our work cut out for us just to survive. Even bullets have been known to be unable to penetrate the skulls and will glance around it instead, not only in animals but even humans. One suspect was shot 33 times with a 9mm in an armed robbery before he stopped returning fire. All I can say, if the dog goes for your throat, feed him your arm, at least you can survive that (just like knife defenses). We were also told that you can hold him in such a way ( behind his front legs) so that his jaws can't reach you, get him off the ground ( they become disorientated), throw him (if possible from high ground to a lower point) and run like hell! I've seen committed dogs take blows from shovels and not go down. One pit bull took 13 rounds from a 9mm before dropping in a committed attack. So, believe me, some of the techniques you hear about are ludicrious, they'll never work unless the animal is not really committed. Hey, some big, tough looking guys with one minor whack go running, some dogs are the same way. The key word is committed and you really won't find that out untill its too late. Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras

Yes, something to definitely think about. Scary, because a dog can do serious physical damage with it's teeth and jaws. There's a lot to be said for committment, in this case when it comes to attacking dogs. No real way to tell. So it happens... problem is like most things, don't always know when/where.
Joe, you were saying that

So, believe me, some of the techniques you hear about are ludicrious, they'll never work unless the animal is not really committed.

. Ok I'll buy that as I've read a few scenarios that made me chuckle as well. From my experience with dogs that have attacked, I never found out if the animal was committed or not. I was; committed that the sucker wasn't going to hurt me, so I came out on top every time.
Offerning my arm for a teething ring isn't my idea of coming out on top. I'll do what I can to keep those teeth and jaws from coming into any contact with me. My thinking is that if the animal gets ahold of flesh and has blood it'll make him/her that much more driven. It's an animal right? Pure animal instincts ... something that we threw away as we walked towards the dawn of civilization.
The techinques I described worked on large dogs. Knowing the sensitive areas of an attacking animal and focusing your (counter) attack on that... I believe will increase chances of survival and reduce injuries. Either way it's a dog, just a dog so do what damage you can to it so it'll stop it's attack.

 

[kenpo2dabone]

Originally posted by MACaver
Not necessarily Tamaya-san. When I train a dog it's all the way and that includes turning down tasty tid-bits from strangers or even friends. It's hard to do but possible. Police and Military K-9's are trained this extensively so that they don't receive a poisoned bait. So one doesn't know if the dog has that extensive training or not... odds are in your favor that they didn't.
But it's like the guy you meet on the street... you just don't know their training until you get right down to it.

:asian:

I would just like to add one thing to this with regards to odds. I know a bit about shutzhound training which is what most police dogs are trained in. I say most because I don't know if they are trained in anything else. I would expect a dog that has the level of training that a police dog has or any dog that has this type of training to be the last dog I wouold have to worry about attacking me. So the odds are slim to none that you would be attacked by one of these dogs and the T-bone trick should work like 99.99% of the time. The problom I would have is deciding whether to get bit or share my steak. Tuff decision.

LOL

Mike Miller UKF

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

This is what I should carry with me all the time. Any dog that refuses to have beer and steak with me must have a serious major social dysfunction....lol.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya
This is what I should carry with me all the time. Any dog that refuses to have beer and steak with me must have a serious major social dysfunction....lol.

I have had several dogs refuse the beer. But never the steak.

It is irritating because the beer part is the best part! Nothing like a drunk dog!

 

[Kroy]

Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya
This is what I should carry with me all the time. Any dog that refuses to have beer and steak with me must have a serious major social dysfunction....lol.

woof, woof (i'll take it)

 

[Karazenpo]

Yeah, I don't relish the thought of presenting my arm out to bite either, lol. We were told that was just a last ditch effort when you're caught by surprise at a lunging canine (throat) and don't have a chance to pull off anything else. It's either your throat or your arm. In that case, he can have the arm, lol. It is true dogs are animals which is the main problem. Sometimes we use that adjective to describe a extremely tough adversary, whether in the ring or on the street. When in the animal 'mode' one feels no or very limited pain and many techniques that are normally successful don't work no matter how effective they are. Now, imagine an animal in the 'animal mode'. I was there when the 13 shots from a 9mm were fired. As a matter of fact I was laying on top of a bicycle that had a pit bull pinned underneath after it just mauled a teenager. On three I jumped up and two of my brother officers standing behind me began to fire. We were at a town park area on school grounds with children in the area so they attempted to use minimum fire but the dog kept lunging toward us and wouldn't go down. It was an average size pit bull. I had already pepper maced him when he was under the bike and due to all the kids around me initially it was inappropiate to shoot at that time -as long as I had him contained. Let me tell you, the officers needed all 13 rounds of semi-jacketd hollow points to stop him-now that's committment. Firearms are usually considered the highest level of deadly force in police training circles and if it takes 13 rounds to stop him I wonder what a martial artist would do with empty hand techniques? Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras

 

[arnisador]

http://www.defendu.com/plan_dog.htm

 

[kenpo12]

So what was the lesson there? Make sure to wear a fanny pack in the front for a dog to bite instead of your flesh?

 

[Old Tiger]

I have to agree with karazenpo.
I have an american bulldog, (not to be confused with the short English Bulldog) He is only two and won't mature until he is three. He already weighs over 100 lbs. and if you know dogs you know that AB's are the Arnold Schwarzenggers of the canine world. They are also, in my humble opinion, the best Protection dogs out there. They have a bite pressure of over 3000psi and are incredibly powerfull. No insult to the Shutzhund training but I feel the AB training outlined by the organization that certifies them is superior. A committed AB is a very scary thing to face. Their training includes being hit with a stick and struck in the face while dragging you down. They can literally bite through a man's arm. They are great natured dogs and not people aggressive. They are dog assertive. they will do exactly what you train them to do. Once they start they will not stop unless ordered to do so. I walk my dog twice a day, he passes other dogs and people on the sidewalk with little more than a passing interest. If ordered to protect me though, he becomes a monster. I am a strong believer in leash laws and that people should make all efforts to control their dogs. Accidents happen but there is no excuse for loose dogs and all these people who were attacked should have sued and had the dog destroyed. My daughter has been attacked five times and I feel very strongly about this.
As a point of clarification:
Bully breeds are very misunderstood. As for pit bulls, TRUE purebred pits are NOT people aggressive. They are dog aggressive. If you are attacked by a pit it is not pure bred. It must have Staffy or something else in it. They are also a rather small dog. If you see a big pit it is not 100% pit. When dog fighting was legal handlers in the pit with the dogs could seperate them with their bare hands. People are in general very ignorant (in the true meaning of the word- they don't know) about how dog fighting was handled. Now that it is illeagal it has become a death sport for dogs. I don't fight dogs and don't encourage it but I hate ignorance. A good trained dog is an excellent form of defense and you have a wonderful companion. I have been in MA for 27 years and I concur that if you are attacked get a weapon. Your belt, a jacket, your shirt, a shoe something. Dogs have a lot of heart and can be very tough as Kenzenpo has documented.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

when i was a boy, i was bitten by a dog. As a result, i had to see a doctor and had injection. I couldn't sleep in the next 7 days because of the pain.

I'm glad that i don't loose any arm or leg.

when the dog chases you, the best thing to do is STAND still and do nothing.

trust me you can't outrun the dog UNLESS you are the fastest runner in the world.

if the dog attacks you, you do everything you can to save you in that moment .

Have a happy holiday here everybody.

I'll see all of you next year. Keep posting.

 

[kenpo12]

catchevangelist,

I have to agree with you except for your commentary on the AB. Not that I dissagree, just don't know enough about the breed or training specifics to agree or dissagree. I have to whole heartedly agree with you about the ignorance in general. I've heard this "Dog Defense" subject come up numerous times on MA forums and most people I've seen respond seem to be pretty ignorant about dogs in general.
The one thing that I would like to see more though is people keeping dogs for self defense. People always invest in burglar alarms and weapons and this and that but a dog is man's (or womans) best friend for alot of reasons. If the dog is trained for defense you're in good hands and even if the dog is not trained specifically for defense a German Shepherd, Doberman, American Bulldog, Bull Mastiff, or a veriety of other other dogs as well, will more than likely fight to the death to defend it's master/handler.

I'm just a dog nut, what can I say,

Matt

 

[Kenpomachine]

Yes, people often talk about dogs even though they ignore the stuff. My neighbour was bitten by her dog a night she came late and smelling of tobacco. She was lucky her parents heard her shout. They killed the dog and bought another one.

Also, german sheppards are jealous of children and must not be left alone with them without adult supervision.

But every dog is a world appart, and also a mirror of his owner. So beware the owner!!

I agree with CoolKenpoGuy, if a dog attacks you, stand still!

 

[kenpo12]

Also, german sheppards are jealous of children and must not be left alone with them without adult supervision.

That goes for any dog.

 

[arnisador]

More thoughts on this:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=272786

 

[Louxcypher]

Hello,

I am new to this forum. A long time ago, I use to post on other forums but it got messy. I just wanted to find a forum to share with others, and came across this one, and it seems like a good one.

Dog attacks is the topic. Thats a tricky one.

In my opinion.....

Lots of variables in the scenerio. If it came to survival, life or death, it seems that excessive use of force would apply. If at all possible, I would probably try as best as I could, to get a thumb in at least one eye and dislodge it completely. I would like to think that a soft tissue target like this would be best form of, attack the attacker. Preferred target is both eyes, but it's just like anything else. Don't know till it happens. Bottom line survival, whatever it takes!

Lots of good ideas in this thread.

 

[arnisador]

Welcome to MartialTalk Louxcypher!

I agree with Kenpomachine that breed does matter, but how the dog has been treated is also very important.

My brother-in-law, a former animal control officer and an SPCA investigator who trains chicken-fight investigators (I used the usual term for this but the censor filtered it out), said his best advice is to reason that at some point in that dog's life, someone taught it that "NO!" means to stop, and to try yelling that in a commanding tone. But, he says, it's far from reliable--just the best bet if you have no equipment.

 

[molson]

Reading this thread brought back memories. .. I was around 15 walking home with a friend when we were confronted by a neighbors German shepard. It was between us and the house. My friend had a great idea that when he yelled, run for the door. Well he yelled at the dog and ran, well I thought it was a good idea so I yelled at the dog andthe dog bit me where the sun doesn't shine. So much for good ideas.

 

[jeffkyle]

I have a friend that has a 1/2 lab and 1/2 rot mix dog. It is normally a very friendly dog. When I play with it I love to smack it on the top of the head and underneath the jaw at the same time.
The dog really hates that because it doesn't know what to think about feeling strikes coming from both directions. Or how to handle being sandwiched between the strikes.
I think it is funny. But I don't take it too far because it wouldn't be good to be bitten by this dog.

 

[MA-Caver]

The adage applies here: Play with fire....

 

[jeffkyle]

It is just playing...and we both know it.

I did know a dog that was really tough, and smart when i was a kid.
There was a guy playing with it and kicking it in the face...and finally this dog got tired of it and bit the end of this guys foot. the kicker is that the guy was wearing steel toed boots, and the dog bit hard enough to bend the steel on to the guys foot...but it stopped when it was there.

This same dog used to be tied up to a telephone pole. And a cop moved in down the street that had 2 dobermans. This dog would go under the fence, with his telephone pole attached, and go to the cops yard and breed with the female doberman while pinning the male in the corner. That was an impressive dog.