Dealing with the Homeless

[Disco]

The government in the 30's did'nt hold a gun to people's heads and demanded they work. They offered work to people who wanted / needed it. They were paid and housed and in turn did a service for the country. How can the ACLU attack that? As far as the racists go, again this is not a force generated threat. It is an offer by an employer (U.S. Govt) to the available workforce. It's the choice of the individual to avail themselves of the opportunity for employment. What can be profiled as racist with that? I think it's time in this country to STOP pandering to specialized groups and tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine. Our country. morally, economically and whatever other way you can think of, is going to hell in a hand basket. We have heard the mirroring of the Roman Empire and their fall. We may be on the same course or we may just implode from a civil war. The racial factions seem to be growing further and further apart. Starting to look like the 60's again. Don't mean to pontificate, just an opinion.



:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ah yes, the "on the edge of apocalypse," fantasy, mixed with the "rise and fall of great powers," hallucination.

I'm afraid the last post isn't even internally consistent. On one hand, present-day society is declinin' and fallin' by comparasion with the Good Ol' Days, on the other and at the same time the GODs were--the Great Depression. During which period we also had the rise of Nazism, the militarization of Japan, Jim Crow in this country...aah, the good old days.

Question: why was there a Depression and all them homeless people in the first place?

 

[Disco]

So nothing of the last post has any relevance? There was nothing mentioned about apocalypticism. If any one is under an hallucinatory impression, it could be the person who thinks it's so.
There were no "Good ole Days". Every generation has had their problems. And in fact, it will continue as such. There was nothing remotely resembling wording on the rise and fall of world powers.
The prospect of a major civil disturbance and it's escalation is not farfetched.

The base subject matter was about putting people to work and a question about law and racism. To negate the subject and dwell on a referance of opinion is a disservice to everyone's intelligence.

 

[rmcrobertson]

No suggestion of the coming apocalypse, eh? Nothing about the rise and fall of great powers? What's all this, then:

"Our country. morally, economically and whatever other way you can think of, is going to hell in a hand basket. We have heard the mirroring of the Roman Empire and their fall. We may be on the same course or we may just implode from a civil war. The racial factions seem to be growing further and further apart...."

The sources for this view of history are, most obviously, Gibbon's "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire," and the recent rewrite by what's-'is-name--"The Rise and Fall of Great Powers," both meant as cautionary tales.

The problem I have with these arguments--and more importantly, with the tangle of moral/political/cultural judgments that always gets dragged along with them--is that a) it's not true, b) it's not a sound representation of how history is shaped, c) the idea of The End is used to call for all sorts of really rather unpleasant actions.

Again, I ask--because it goes to the heart of the claims that laziness and moral incapacity is the ground of homelessness, poverty, etc.--is, why was there this Great Depression in the first place? Wouldn't have had anything to do with...uh...well....CAPITALISM, would it?

Here's the thing. You think, as far as I can tell, that phenomena like homelessness are accidents, aberrations of our social and economic system that can only be explained on the grounds of individual moral failure. I think they're not accidents at all; I think they're integral to the way the system works.

Thanks for the argument.

 

[Disco]

Was on the racial admonishment and the ACLU giving credence to everything anti-social. I do infact agree with you on the cause an effect of the problem, Capilalism. Big business, in my opinion, has sold this country down the river.

The use of the reference to the Roman Empire does have merit though. All through history, civilizations that prospered and fell had some basis for failure within their moralistic blueprint. Having the capitialists strive for excessive profits at the cost of the workforce losing jobs and income has a moral implication to me.
Armageddon, as we refer to it, is the end of the world. Just because a society should flounder or fall does not unto itself mean armageddon. How many countries/societies in the 20th century have fallen, and yet we are still here. If in fact, the American way of life as we now know it should dissolve, we would'nt disappear. We would just regroup and attempt to reconstruct.

Thanks for the rebuttle. :asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

OK, fair enough...though I'm right about the apocalypse stuff.

It'd be interesting, in fact, to look at the way a lot of folks on these forums think of themselves as engaging constant threat, as "warriors," in a crumbling, threat-filled society--an idea that comes out a lot in science fiction.

But I like the way Cornel West's "Race Matters," damns both "sides," of the argument we're having...

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Why would anyone say an economic system was the cause of an event?

If that were possible, such a statment would be even more rediculous considering the quality of life capitalism has brought us after the 30s.

If anyone here really cares to have a clue, the Great Depression was initiated by a stock market bubble burst after AFFLUENT EXCESS of the common man, followed by the Dust Bowl drought of America's bread basket, caused in part by inappropriate agricultural methods.

Saying Capitalism was the cause of the depression (which will occur in any economic system) is like blaming electricity for your lamp not working.

Bashing big business is just being burgeoisephobic. If it weren't for the "big boys", we would have almost no libraries, art centers, museums, special schools, ad infinitum. We'd be taxed twice what we are now just to hope the governemnt would take care of us like good little children.

If you fully comprehended what Bill Gates and his wife alone spend on charity, your brain would bleed out your nose.

But I'm not so sure what any of this has to do with martial arts.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
Bashing big business is just being burgeoisephobic. If it weren't for the "big boys", we would have almost no libraries, art centers, museums, special schools, ad infinitum.

Not to mention JOBS.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kirk
Not to mention JOBS.

Oh, and the funding and collaboration of MANY major advancements in medicine and every branch of science in the last century.

Oh, and the fast proliferation of new technology.

Oh, and to an extent the preservation of privately funded education.

And hospital wings. And monuments. And ... hey, wait a minute!

Why doesn't the Fortune 500 support martial arts??????

We're getting gyped!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well Ken....can any of us really imagine Mr. Gates in a gi? I remember that Celeb. Death Match he was in a while back...it wasnt pretty. (Ok, so the claymation Gates was tougher....)

I am not a fan of BG or M$. The fact is though, that the Gates Foundation does a hell of alot. More than many of the better known money folk.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm

The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is building upon the unprecedented opportunities of the 21st century to improve equity in global health and learning—because the life and potential of a child born in one place is as valuable as that in another.

The foundation was created in January 2000, through the merger of the Gates Learning Foundation, which worked to expand access to technology through public libraries, and the William H. Gates Foundation, which focused on improving global health. Led by Bill Gates’ father, William H. Gates, Sr., and Patty Stonesifer, the Seattle-based foundation has an endowment of approximately $24 billion through the personal generosity of Bill and Melinda Gates.

I know they gave a few million to my own local libraries recently....


For another view of BG, Look here: http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3477.html

:asian:

 

[Ender]

You cannot compare the Roman empire with Capitalism. They are two different economic models. one was built on extortion and oppression, while Capitalism is based on a sort of Darwinism (survival of the fittest).

In reality, Business AVERAGES about 3-4% profit a year, hardly what some could call excessive profits. If any business would record record profits, everyoneBut the truth is that there are people who do not wish to work, period.

 

[Ender]

If any business would record record profits, everyone would buy their stocks....But the truth is that there are people who do not wish to work, period....oops..*L

 

[rmcrobertson]

Gee, hell, guys, I don't wish to work either.

As for the largess of capitalism---fill in loud explosive snort of derisive laughter here.

The money Gates et al. made did not come from nowhere, ya know.

You might really want to read up on basic economic theory/theory of capitalism as an economic system. Ricardo et al--a point I've made before--make it very clear that, "the market," has no moral responsibility whatsoever. Which is exactly my point.

Again, I am more interested in this thread in the extent to which those dangerous human scum, "the homeless," prop up the idea that the end of martial arts study is to arm oneself fully against the ongoing moral collapse of our social order.

Thanks.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
... As for the largess of capitalism---fill in loud explosive snort of derisive laughter here. ... You might really want to read up on basic economic theory/theory of capitalism as an economic system. Ricardo et al--a point I've made before--make it very clear that, "the market," has no moral responsibility whatsoever. Which is exactly my point.

Business is AMORAL by definition, as is Biology or Music. But if there is any such thing as a moral economic system, it is Capitalism, because by its nature, it mirrors the morality of the culture it is applied to. It is driven directly by the individual (collectively).

And even though it rocks as an economic system, one thing is true -- Capitalism is no more greedy or philanthropic than human nature itself.

In other words, I am suggesting that any effort to (de)moralize capitalism as an ideology is wading in philosophical bullsh*t.

 

[GaryM]

I've seen some interesting points of view here. Seems the range is from Mother Teresa to Adolph Hitler. Personally I don't have feelings about the street beggers except thank God I'm not one of them. I realize that it can happen to anyone. Anyone can grow up to be president (If thier daddy is a billionaire). I guess I'm kind of paranoid though. I don't assume that a car will stop for me just because I'm in a crosswalk, I practice safe sex, ( I could use more practice though), I don't try to pet stray dogs, AND I go into 'condition orange' whenever anyone I don't know well starts to invade my personal space. That's silly, I know. I probably should be wearing camouflage and living out in the backwoods in a shack. Then we have someone here that actually had the audacity to imply that capitolism has major flaws. Burn the heritic! I'm glad that there were people here that pointed out how good massa has been to us 'house niggas'. Why, we could be field hands workin in de sweat shops in some godless country like China. Oh wait, what's this say on my shirt? 'Made in China' Gee thanks Sam Walton. Gosh , and the government say's they's gonna give us three whole hunnert dollars man! Kinda wonder what the Walton's and the Gate's and the Rockafeller's will do with thiers? They's such humanitarians they'll probably just use it for librarys and such and not even claim it as a deduction. Ya know somebody should tell Mr. Gates that ifn' he'd have Melissa pop out a coupla youngins they might even get some real money back come next April.
Hey anybody remember Country Joe MacDonald and the fish?
Well it's 1, 2, 3, oil's what we're fightin for
Don't care I don't give a damn, put a pipe through Afganistan
5,6,7, let's watch CNN , got no time to wonder why, it's fun to watch Iraqes die.
Come on all you big strong men, GW's got us in a hell of a jam
Mom can drive an SUV to the grocery store if her boy comes home in a box.

Gee, I hope I didn't offend anyone. I so care. Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining!

 

[progressivetactics]

like or dislike....
Sharp Phil, you have done your job well! You have wrote an article which has made people fighting mad. You have created in them emotions and made them think much more about people on the street then they have done in probably months! Whether it was to write their congress person about their situation, or enlist at a local shelter to do more, People have responded on this issue. Exactly what a good writer does...Better to get negative reactions then No reactions. You seemed to have a mix of good and bad! Nice work!


Please remember everyone (if anyone is still reading all the posts or just venting their feelings about this without reading what was read),
This issue has struck on peoples nerves and turned into a religious (at times) and political (at times) debate. 2 things most know NOT to discuss, as it gets very heated. Please everyone, remember that these are personal opinions about matters. Lets try to remain civil and don't take any of this to other threads. I don't want to see people looking to bash another poster on a different thread because of an out of control diatribe on this thread!!

Lets be civil, and look out for one another!!

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by GaryM
I've seen some interesting points of view here. Seems the range is from Mother Teresa to Adolph Hitler.
...
I realize that it can happen to anyone. Anyone can grow up to be president (If thier daddy is a billionaire).

You'd have some good points, too if you didn't cram our words wrongfully into black and white.

And Jimmy Carter was a farmer. And I don't recall ANY president having a billionaire father. And if they did, that would be no reason to vote or not vote for them. Heaven forbid the financially successful do good things so they can be called hypocrates. People NEVER deserve being rich, do they? Long live Das Kapital (one of the poorest philosophical works of the genre)!

... AND I go into 'condition orange' whenever anyone I don't know well starts to invade my personal space. That's silly, I know. ...

NOBODY here said to let your guard down.

... Then we have someone here that actually had the audacity to imply that capitolism has major flaws. Burn the heritic!
[/B]

Nobody here denies the problems inherrent in Capitalism. We're just not stupid enough to throw the baby out with the bath water. Especially when the baby is responsible for a good part of mankind's recent upward spiral in living condition.

Our "depressions" are nothing compared to the poverty of non-democratic, non-capitalistic states. Anyone with a map and a marker can figure out REAL quick that countries and cultures that are both democratic (a system which has major flaws, too) and capitalistic (with its flaws) = unparalleled prosperity.

So if you don't like it, I'm not going to tell you to leave. In fact, even if many of us don't agree with your attitude, we NEED people like you. Vote for change. Boycot whom you will.

:soapbox:

But remember these are things you can only do in a society with these systems of government and economics to begin with.

 

[don bohrer]

So if you don't like it, I'm not going to tell you to leave. In fact, even if many of us don't agree with your attitude, we NEED people like you. Vote for change. Boycot whom you will.

I couldn't agree more.

Matter of fact if there's anything in this country that someone thinks should change they should work for it. Exorcise your right to vote is a good start. Volunteer for things that matter to you personally. Make sure your the one teaching your kids and not popular culture. This is all common sense, but I hear many people complaining, and few people working to fix what bugs them.