Danzan Ryu - Japanese Jujutsu or Hawaiian Jujutsu?

[puunui]

Had lunch with a guy once, to discuss an unrelated project he was working on. Come to find out he trained, too. Invited me to an Aikido club in his back yard, about a half mile from my house as the crow flies. He gave me directions to his driveway, which was hard to find. When I pulled into his windy, dirt driveway, I came to his house. Behind it stood a building about the size of a four car garage. It was built in traditional Japanese architecture. Looked like a little Kodokan. It was completely hidden by a grove of wattle trees. Inside was even nicer than the outside. It wasn't a commercial operation, just a group of folks doing Aikido.

If you have a million dollars, you can buy this home which comes with its own separate dojo building similar to the one you describe above. Picture ten is the dojo, which is my friend's house. And if you do purchase it, let me know because you'd live about a ten minute walk from me.

http://www.realestate.com/detail/368-1202926-3023-One-St-Honolulu-HI-96822/#

 

[elder999]

What was the name of your father's teacher in karate in hawaii? Or where was the garage?

Sadly, I don't know either of those things- I know it was in Kaneohe, from 1952-54, and-other than what he showed me of it, that's about it........

 

[puunui]

Sadly, I don't know either of those things- I know it was in Kaneohe, from 1952-54, and-other than what he showed me of it, that's about it........

Did he learn any kata? If so, which ones? It might have been kenpo that your father learned, or okinawan karate.

 

[elder999]

Did he learn any kata? If so, which ones? It might have been kenpo that your father learned, or okinawan karate.

It was Okinawan karate-he learned the pinans, tensho,sanchin, bassai and naihanchi kata, all of which he recognized from my doing them, he'd forgotten most of them long before.....

As you know, this doesn't really narrow it down at all: I think, from differences he pointed out between the versions of tensho, that it might have been shito-ryu, which isn't really "Okinawan," per se, and I don't know was on Oahu at the time. It could have easily been shorin ryu, or even kyokushin-except he didn't recognize taikyoku kata at all-for him it was just "karate," and really only secondary to his judo practice-something he did in Hawaii when he was in the Navy, and never again........

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

In the end, it's probably best to call it by whichever name you are most comfortable. If students wish to know the background, you can explain it to them, and then they can call it whatever they wish. The training, not the name, will prove to be the more important factor.
And don't let the name combo mess you up. After all, in this country we have Mexican lasagna, Cincinnati chili, Hawaiian pizza, and ...Chinese Kenpo (bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha).

 

[puunui]

It was Okinawan karate-he learned the pinans, tensho,sanchin, bassai and naihanchi kata, all of which he recognized from my doing them, he'd forgotten most of them long before.....As you know, this doesn't really narrow it down at all: I think, from differences he pointed out between the versions of tensho, that it might have been shito-ryu, which isn't really "Okinawan," per se, and I don't know was on Oahu at the time. It could have easily been shorin ryu, or even kyokushin-except he didn't recognize taikyoku kata at all-for him it was just "karate," and really only secondary to his judo practice-something he did in Hawaii when he was in the Navy, and never again........

Was he stationed at the Marine Corps base in Kaneohe?

Back in the early 50s, I think there were only two groups that were practicing okinawan karate at the time, the kenpo groups and the okinawan karate practiced by locals who had learned back in the 20s and 30's, when teachers would visit from Okinawa. There are some webpages that talk about that stuff. If he learned the pinan kata, then that would take out the kenpo groups, because the only kata they practiced, if they practiced kata at all, was naihanchi. The local okinawan group taught some or all of those kata, but during that period, I can't see then allowing any non-okinawan people to join in their back yard garage practices. Also garages back then were smaller, one car I believe, rather than two car or more like today. So I don't know who he would have learned from. Perhaps it was another person in the navy that studied in okinawa and was teaching off base. Or perhaps it was another person in the navy and he learned from someplace other than hawaii, phillipines for example, but sort of remembers it was hawaii. The person who would know is Sensei Charles Goodin. If you search his name, you will find his email address and perhaps you can write to him and ask him.

 

[puunui]

And don't let the name combo mess you up. After all, in this country we have Mexican lasagna, Cincinnati chili, Hawaiian pizza, and ...Chinese Kenpo (bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha).

I never got the idea of Chinese Kenpo. I think it started because two of Professor Mitose's black belts who went on to teach at their own kenpo schools, Professor Chow and Professor Young, were part chinese and chinese respectively.

 

[elder999]

Was he stationed at the Marine Corps base in Kaneohe?

Back in the early 50s, I think there were only two groups that were practicing okinawan karate at the time, the kenpo groups and the okinawan karate practiced by locals who had learned back in the 20s and 30's, when teachers would visit from Okinawa. There are some webpages that talk about that stuff. If he learned the pinan kata, then that would take out the kenpo groups, because the only kata they practiced, if they practiced kata at all, was naihanchi. The local okinawan group taught some or all of those kata, but during that period, I can't see then allowing any non-okinawan people to join in their back yard garage practices. Also garages back then were smaller, one car I believe, rather than two car or more like today. So I don't know who he would have learned from. Perhaps it was another person in the navy that studied in okinawa and was teaching off base. Or perhaps it was another person in the navy and he learned from someplace other than hawaii, phillipines for example, but sort of remembers it was hawaii. The person who would know is Sensei Charles Goodin. If you search his name, you will find his email address and perhaps you can write to him and ask him.

Dad was a Naval chaplain, and stationed at a Pearl, but may have done services at Kaneohe. He was also engaged to marry a "Japanese" woman at the time, which might have had some bearing, since he said that the sensei was "Japanese" as well...or not. I dunno.......I tried Charles Goodin once, but-as you can see-I just don't have enough information.

 

[Buka]

My friends and I started going to Hawaii in 74 for a month at a time. That's how long you had in order to get round trip airfare prices. One of the guys moved there in 76. (and we would fly over and move right in whenever we could afford it! ) We couldn't very well go a month without training, we were young black belt pups, so we always brought gi pants and worked out on our own. We met all kinds of martial guys and gals. Some were locals, and some were tourists. It was always a wonderful experience to work out with them. Sometimes it was in a ball-field, a beach, a back yard or the top of Haleakala. We met Russian Karate men, German wrestlers, kick boxers from Amsterdam, Korean Tae-kwon-do men, and Japanese artists from a lot of different styles. On several occasions we worked out with a language barrier problem and only knew what each other were saying by technique and body language alone, but it was still great. Fantastic, even.

On several occasions in the eighties I spoke with Ed Parker and Wally Jay about what it was like growing up there and training Martial Arts. They had some wonderful stories and would go on for hours, it was like listening to a history lesson. In 78 I saw a Mas Oyama's team fight in Honolulu. Master Oyama was there and I got to bow to him and shake his hand. (didn't wash it for two days. No, really, I'm serious.) In 94 and 95 my wife and I took privates in the garage under Relson Gracies house from one of his purple belts. We went to some of his classes. (at the time they were at U H.) In 96 and 97 we trained at Rickson's school (run by Hommolo Barrens) in Wailuku. It was a grand time.

We lived there twice, once for two years and once for ten. Both times we had to move back to take care of elderly family. Everyone's gone now, and we'll be going back for good when we can. I'm actually on a leave of absence from my job at the airport. Our dog (who was born in Hilo) is 14....

....and is too old to make the trip. I hope he lives another ten years, but that probably ain't gonna happen.

One of my good friends on Maui is a Tang-soo-do man. I worked out with him many times. A lot of the black belts from his organization would come to vacation, and we all had a grand time. It was like that with everyone I knew from the fight game. They'd come for vacation and they would always spend a couple days working out with the boys. Hawaii is like that. It usually draws more vacationers than Boston (where I am now) or say, South Dakota.

When I think "Hawaii" and "Martial Arts" my head usually spins a bit. Martial Artists are everywhere over there. And, man, I can't wait to go home.

 

[Makalakumu]

This is the perfect place to feed my obsession. I like the laid back atmosphere and talking story with the old guys...and the homegrown jujutsu style is cool too!

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk

 

[punisher73]

I never got the idea of Chinese Kenpo. I think it started because two of Professor Mitose's black belts who went on to teach at their own kenpo schools, Professor Chow and Professor Young, were part chinese and chinese respectively.

Prof. Chow called his art various things throughout his life. He also said that his father taught him kung fu which he added to what Mitose taught him, thus the chinese influence. To really muddy the waters, when Mitose first started teaching, he didn't claim to be the inheritor of some long drawn out Japanese history and style. It was rumored that Choki Motobu was his uncle and in Mitose's first book he even uses Motobu's coat of arms. Motobu called his approach Okinawan Kempo, I think this is where the migration to using the term "Hawaiian Kempo" started. It has been shown by Chosei Motobu that they were NOT related to Mitose, but many feel that his training and training methods were the product of okinawan karate and not a japanese style as later claimed.

 

[puunui]

Prof. Chow called his art various things throughout his life. He also said that his father taught him kung fu which he added to what Mitose taught him, thus the chinese influence.

I studied with Professor Chow, who was a friend of the family. My uncle, who also studied with him during the 1950's, was the one who introduced Professor Chow to his wife Patsy. I don't know if you have GM Ed Parker's book series Infinite Insights, but in volume one there is a group photo of GM Parker at Professor Chow's school at the Nuuanu YMCA. My uncle I believe is in the first row, the first person on the left. Professor Chow and his wife used to go over to my uncle's house (which was right next to ours), back when we all lived in puunui.

 

[puunui]

Dad was a Naval chaplain, and stationed at a Pearl, but may have done services at Kaneohe. He was also engaged to marry a "Japanese" woman at the time, which might have had some bearing, since he said that the sensei was "Japanese" as well...or not. I dunno.......I tried Charles Goodin once, but-as you can see-I just don't have enough information.

Back in the early 1950's, there was a distinction here between mainland japanese and okinawans, and the two didn't really mix culturally or socially. By my generation, those sorts of distinctions went away. In fact, I have many friends who are Okinawan or part Okinawan, including one of my oldest friends. But perhaps the distinction wasn't made clear to your father, because it was a taboo subject. So perhaps he assumed the people who he was training with were japanese, when in fact, they were okinawan.

 

[Makalakumu]

Back in the early 1950's, there was a distinction here between mainland japanese and okinawans, and the two didn't really mix culturally or socially. By my generation, those sorts of distinctions went away. In fact, I have many friends who are Okinawan or part Okinawan, including one of my oldest friends. But perhaps the distinction wasn't made clear to your father, because it was a taboo subject. So perhaps he assumed the people who he was training with were japanese, when in fact, they were okinawan.

I've always wondered about what Okazaki's experience in Hawaii was like at the turn of the century? If the various groups were this insular, how was he able to make so many connections with so many people who were willing to share martial arts with him? He trained with a Japanese jujutsu teacher. He trained with a Chinese kung fu teacher. He trained in Okinawan Karate. He trained in Filipino knife fighting. He trained in Hawaiian Lua...and even now you can't formally train in this unless you have Hawaiian ancestry. How did he pull all of this together? It's pretty amazing when you think about it...

 

[puunui]

I've always wondered about what Okazaki's experience in Hawaii was like at the turn of the century? If the various groups were this insular, how was he able to make so many connections with so many people who were willing to share martial arts with him? He trained with a Japanese jujutsu teacher. He trained with a Chinese kung fu teacher. He trained in Okinawan Karate. He trained in Filipino knife fighting. He trained in Hawaiian Lua...and even now you can't formally train in this unless you have Hawaiian ancestry. How did he pull all of this together? It's pretty amazing when you think about it...

Good question. Perhaps the answer is in examining each individual techniques from his original curriculum closely to determine if there are in fact evidence of those styles within Danzan Ryu. I would focus on unique things specific to such arts and not generic techniques that could have come from any number of places. Another possibility worth exploring is the idea that he had a massage clinic and worked on a lot of different people. Perhaps he treated someone who studied one of the arts mentioned above and perhaps showed Professor Okazaki a technique or two or three and that got into the story. Just thinking off the top of my head.

A while back I actually went to the Okazaki Restoration Massage place, which was still being run by Professor Okazaki's son. The son must have been in his 70s or older, but he gave a very hard massage. I felt beat up and stoned for days after that experience. Looking at his old photos, I can only imagine what it must have been like to have gotten a massage from Professor Okazaki.

 

[Makalakumu]

Good question. Perhaps the answer is in examining each individual techniques from his original curriculum closely to determine if there are in fact evidence of those styles within Danzan Ryu. I would focus on unique things specific to such arts and not generic techniques that could have come from any number of places. Another possibility worth exploring is the idea that he had a massage clinic and worked on a lot of different people. Perhaps he treated someone who studied one of the arts mentioned above and perhaps showed Professor Okazaki a technique or two or three and that got into the story. Just thinking off the top of my head.

A while back I actually went to the Okazaki Restoration Massage place, which was still being run by Professor Okazaki's son. The son must have been in his 70s or older, but he gave a very hard massage. I felt beat up and stoned for days after that experience. Looking at his old photos, I can only imagine what it must have been like to have gotten a massage from Professor Okazaki.

It's been a couple of days since I've had time to sit down and look something up, but this thread has remained in my mind. I'm going to schedule an appointment for one of the Okazaki Massages. I've heard they are "therapeutic".

Anyway, in regards to Lua's connection to DZR, here is an article that is posted on our jujutsu dojo's website.

http://www.pixi.com/~mcjitsu/okazaki/article03.html

Upon first hearing that Professor Okazaki incorporated Hawaiian Lua into his system, I have been trying to find out where the lua was hidden, which techniques were of Hawaiian origin, and why these lua techniques were kept so secret. No one seemed to know where the lua was among the hundreds of techniques contained within the system Professor Okazaki called Danzan Ryu. For more than thirty years, I sought answers to these questions by searching libraries across the country and within various Hawaiian island communities. It seemed as though Hawaii, itself, had lost the mysterious art of lua, or possibly that someone or group had painstakingly combed through the public archives and removed all traces of this ancient art.

After personally interviewing several of Okazaki's former students, talking to many older generation Hawaiians, and following several leads, I was able to make contact with a lua group in the summer of 1995. A time and place was set, and I prepared to meet with these warriors who practice the ancient way of bone breaking. Acutely aware of my own limitations, I was somewhat apprehensive about our first meeting. In retrospect, my friends had voiced a sense of fear based on stories they had heard about lua. As I followed the 'olohe-lua (instructor) to a private location at the base of a rugged mountain range, foremost in my mind were stories told to me by the old Hawaiians. One tale described of how the haole (foreigner) would be invited to participate in a lua training session with an established lua group, only to discover that he would actually be the object upon which the haumana (lua disciple) would practice. Following the life and death battle, the conquered victim's bones would be "bundled" after which he would be eaten alive!

Here is a list of techniques that this researcher has identified as Lua techniques.

• ryote hazushi
• yubi toi
• katate tori
• ryote tori
• ryoeri tori
• akushu kote tori
• kubi nuki shime
• hadaka shime ichi
• osaegami jime
• shidare fuji jime
• mizukuguri
• komiri
• shigarami
• tora katsugi
• hiki otoshi
• kin katsugi
• hon gyaku san
• genkotsu ude tori ichi
• kesa nage
• ashi shigarami
• gyaku hayanada
• hizaori nage
• ebi shime
• ushiro ebi shime
• ushiro nage
• kesa koroshi
• tataki komi
• tsukikomi dome
• obi otoshi
• tsurigane otoshi
• tawara gaeshi
• selected techniques from Shingin No Make

I know the techniques on this list up to Ashi Shigarami and could comment specifically. After that, I haven't learned it yet.

 

[72ronin]

Im sure ive seen a vid on Hawaiian martial art before. Maybe it was the Lua that you guys speak of. Perhaps you could compare with it.
I will try to find it. If it is irrelevant to this particular discussion, my appologies in advance
cheers

 

[72ronin]

From the 5.50 min mark, untill 13 min.

http://youtu.be/zj7y9XMREZY

Only a short demonstration unfortunately.
cheers