Dan Bon importance?

[Muwubu16858]

In the Moo Duk Kwan, Dan Bon (Dan number) was created to denote Seniority for the most part. However, as shown in this photo, Dan Bon clearly isn't as important to the late Grandmaster:

I hope the pic comes out, if not, here's the link:
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1130623666027511977QhLbDk

In the photo, front row, starting 3rd in from the left is Hong Chong Soo, GM Hwang Kee (seated), Oh Sae Joon, then Kim Jae Joon. Now heres the question on importance of Dan Bon: if the Dan Bon is so important in Moo Duk Kwan, then why is Choi Hui Suk, who is Dan Bon 5, among the 4 men standing all the way in the back of the photo (1st from left to right). If Dan Bon were "realy" important, then he would be standing next to GM Hwang, no?

I asked my teacher about this, and he said at that time, skill was most important to GM Hwang. And the best of the best were Master's Oh Sae Joon and Hong Chong Soo (why they are immediately next to the late founder in the photo from the early to mid 1950's). My teacher has an original copy of that photo.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Technically, we're supposed to line up by dan number...in a big black belt class, that's not really efficient, but at my own dojang it's much more manageable.

...however, right now the person who is one dan number above me (I'm 46156, she's 46155) is several tests behind me (she took a couple years off) and I will, in all likelihood, be promoted to sam dan ahead of her...don't know what I'm gonna do then, since that would mean that, when/if I'm promoted to sam dan, I should stand ahead of her in class, even though she's technically still my senior. *shrugs*

I dunno...

 

[MBuzzy]

Well, I did have a very lengthy and "ranty" reply written out to this...but I decided that I got way off track on the rank issue rather than Dan Bon.

So I suppose the best way to start is to say that I don't think that Dan Bon and rank are really tied to each other. While they usually are closely related, they don't have to be. We actually have two people in my Dojang with very low Dan Bons, far lower than the instructor, but who are an Ee Dan and Sam Dan. Since there is no high year tenure on rank, a person can stay for a certain rank as long as they want.

I see a definite need for Dan Bon when it comes to identification and protocol. I really like the idea that we have it as a unique identifier and something that you can hold on to throughout your career.

Though, I do think that rank should come before Dan Bon in terms of protocol. Since rank says what you've done, Dan Bon only says when you did it. If someone earned their Dan rank 10 years ago, I respect them for that, but if they had continued training and testing regularly, their rank would match, if it doesn't, they probably were not training regularly. ****Disclaimer - that isn't always true, I've known a lot who just never tested as well!

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

JT,
You are in the same place with this class mate as many of us have been over the years...

Just because someone earned their black belt/blue belt before you does not mean that that are continuing their growth on the same level as you.

All that don bon does is record the order of when we each recieved our first dan ranking. Don bon does not track our forward growth, or lack there of.

I have passed many in rank that came before me. I found it hard at first to assume the senior position to them, but I was made to understand by my seniors that the decision for me to recieve my various ranks was the decision of my instructor and that his determination overroad anything else regarding who was senior to who.

However, on another note; My instructor, GM C.I. Kim told us that when he was in Korea for the 50th anniversary of the Moo Duk Kwan that he was seated at the head table directly th KJN Hwang Kee's right. With a sea of blue trim uniforms in front of them he saw deep in this sea of blue, GM O Sae Jun. He stated that he stepped down from the stage, walked thru the sea of blue and took GM O Sae Jun by the arm in a loving fasion and walked him up to the stage and gave him the seat that he was sitting in and everyone moved down to make room for him.

According to GM C.I. Kim, GM O Sae Jun stopped receiving rank at around 3rd or 4th dan.

He further stated that; O Sae Jun as his teached from white belt up... and that he would never sit senior to his teacher.

GM C.I. Kim had, and to this day has the greatest respect for GM O Sae Jun.

In this story we find a difference of ideas as to the importance of dan bon. GM Kim promoted me up the line causing me to pass many who had come before me, but when it came to his personal relationship with his teacher, he would not consider rank, just age and contribution...


All the best,


Sensei Jay S. Penfil

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I would still have a hesitancy to call myself "senior" to anyone with a lower dan number than me...I just have too much respect for seniority, I guess, even if it's just one number.

Tang Soo!

 

[foggymorning162]

We line up first by rank then by number, but the number is much more important to the teens than the adults. I personally would rather be in back with the 10th gup and tend to let the teenagers go ahead of me, anybody else who wants to too for that matter our instructor is not that strict on the line up order as long as we're by rank.

 

[Muwubu16858]

My teacher, before moving to the United States in 1981, went together with GM Oh Sae Joon to meet with Hwang Kee at his home. My teacher said that GM Oh decided to wait at a nearby tea shop, and sent my teacher alone. GM Lee arrived, and told GM Hwang where he was going, and who his main instructor was. He Said "Oh Sae Joon", and GM Hwang said "Oh Sae Joon was best student; I teach him one thing, he makes ten things." Then afterward, Hwang suspected that GM Oh was nearby, and told Lee to go get him, and bring him there. After, the three of them talked for a while, and because my teacher never brought his camera to his house, Hwang Kee gave my teacher a copy of the Soo Bahk Do Dae Gam, and signed the copy for him. Oh Sae Joon had the highest level of skill in the entire Moo Duk Kwan in Korea, and everyone with a Dan Bon higher than him was afraid of him when it came time for Jayoo Dae Ryun. Even people from other sects, who didn't know his name, knew the reputation of the Y.M.C.A. dojang. However, on another note, my teacher just came back from England a few weeks ago (he went along with GM Sergio Chavez of Dallas and Mexico) from a seminar run by GM Kang Uk Lee (no 70). On the issue of Dan Bon, I have a whole new can of worms for this group that will turn heads on every corner of the globe. GM Lee Kang Uk has in his possesion copy's of all the original Dan Bon records held by GM Hwang Kee, up into the very early 3000's. He wouldn't tell my teacher how he got them, but it must have happened back when he was Chief Instructor of the Moo Duk Kwan central gym in the 1960's. According to his records, which are copies of GM Hwangs originals, with photo's included, my teacher's Dan Bon is 1651, and he is sending up a copy of his records and GM Oh Sae Joon's records for my teacher to keep. But according to an inquiry with the U.S. Soo Bahk Do Fed. last year, "The Dan Bon 1651 is assigned to Mr. Kim, Kwang Ho. Mr. Lee, Jung Hwan's name is not found under 1651." Also, I'm not going to mention his name, but a very prominant person in the U.S. who has his Dan Bon at a number under 1000 and heads a major Fed. of his own, is listed at over 2000 in GM Lee Kang Uk's records. Anyway, who is right; Lee Kang Uk, a very senior student of Hwang Kee, who was Chief Instructor at the Moo Duk Kwan Central Gym from 1964 - 1972, or Hwang Hyun Chul, who I won't even begin to diseminate on this thread? In fact, should this be another thread for this topic?

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Michael,
What was Master Oh Sae Jun's don bon?

 

[Muwubu16858]

I didn't ask, but according to my teacher before the visit, 25, and the U.S. Soo Bahk Do Fed says 26

 

[Dana]

I've heard very good things about Oh Sae Jun from several senior sources and it is nice to know what his dan bon was (as I had not seen it listed in any of the usual locations). He obviously was very senior with a dan bon of 25 or 26.

No offense, as I can understand your loyalty and pride in your lineage, but a statement like the following is rather naive, particularly with all the talented folks that came out of the Moo Duk Kwan.

"Oh Sae Joon had the highest level of skill in the entire Moo Duk Kwan in Korea, and everyone with a Dan Bon higher than him was afraid of him when it came time for Jayoo Dae Ryun."

I also would not base your seniority arguments on where folks are standing in a photograph as jockeying for position was not as important to some as others.

"In the photo, front row, starting 3rd in from the left is Hong Chong Soo, GM Hwang Kee (seated), Oh Sae Joon, then Kim Jae Joon. Now heres the question on importance of Dan Bon: if the Dan Bon is so important in Moo Duk Kwan, then why is Choi Hui Suk, who is Dan Bon 5, among the 4 men standing all the way in the back of the photo (1st from left to right). If Dan Bon were "realy" important, then he would be standing next to GM Hwang, no?"

Personally, I think Oh Sae Jun has a very good reputation amongst fellow MDKers and that in itself says alot about the man.



Dana

 

[tsdmgk1336]

JT,
You are in the same place with this class mate as many of us have been over the years...

Just because someone earned their black belt/blue belt before you does not mean that that are continuing their growth on the same level as you.

All that don bon does is record the order of when we each recieved our first dan ranking. Don bon does not track our forward growth, or lack there of.

I have passed many in rank that came before me. I found it hard at first to assume the senior position to them, but I was made to understand by my seniors that the decision for me to recieve my various ranks was the decision of my instructor and that his determination overroad anything else regarding who was senior to who.

However, on another note; My instructor, GM C.I. Kim told us that when he was in Korea for the 50th anniversary of the Moo Duk Kwan that he was seated at the head table directly th KJN Hwang Kee's right. With a sea of blue trim uniforms in front of them he saw deep in this sea of blue, GM O Sae Jun. He stated that he stepped down from the stage, walked thru the sea of blue and took GM O Sae Jun by the arm in a loving fasion and walked him up to the stage and gave him the seat that he was sitting in and everyone moved down to make room for him.

According to GM C.I. Kim, GM O Sae Jun stopped receiving rank at around 3rd or 4th dan.

He further stated that; O Sae Jun as his teached from white belt up... and that he would never sit senior to his teacher.

GM C.I. Kim had, and to this day has the greatest respect for GM O Sae Jun.

In this story we find a difference of ideas as to the importance of dan bon. GM Kim promoted me up the line causing me to pass many who had come before me, but when it came to his personal relationship with his teacher, he would not consider rank, just age and contribution...


All the best,


Sensei Jay S. Penfil

I agree with master penfil all the way...

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I still would feel weird ever doing anything to insinuate seniority over someone who I always considered senior.

Better example: Last night in class, one of my seniors who had been a 7th or 6th gup when I started as a 10th gup (in other words, more than a year my senior) returned from a year or so break due to back injury. I noticed that he is now a few recertifications behind me, yet I will still always consider him my senior. He still has more knowledge and better technique control than I do (always did), despite his long break from training. Yet if I manage to pass my sam dan test next spring, he'll still be a few recerts behind me. It's an even bigger moral crisis, I think. Especially hearing that story about GM C.I. Kim and GM O Sae Jun, I would be very hesitant to stand senior to someone who had been my instructor on several occasions.

I just dunno.

 

[Muwubu16858]

Originally Posted by Master Jay S. Penfil
According to GM C.I. Kim, GM O Sae Jun stopped receiving rank at around 3rd or 4th dan.

I asked my teacher about this. He said from what he remembers, GM Oh was 5th Dan with Hwang Kee, and had passed for 6th Dan, but the rank Cert. was held from him when he split. I believe this is the same type of BS that GM Ah Po experienced from the Moo Duk Kwan, earning 8th Dan from Hwang Kee, and never recieving the Cert. because he left. Anyway, I can tell you that GM Oh held 8th Dan Kukiwon before he passed away. My teacher has GM Oh's Kukiwon ID card given to him by one of GM Oh's daughters.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

GM C.I. Kim never saw himself as any kind of senior to GM Oh. He always spoke of GM Oh to me with the highest respect. I would have liked to meet and train with him, but never had the chance...


H.C. Hwang did so much damage to his seniors over the years to push them away and make room for himself to be senior to everyone related to the Federation. It is sad to look back and see those who were treated so pourly after dedicating themselves to KJN Hwang Kee as they did.

How does one expect us to follow him when the example that he puts in front of us is so against all that we were taught to be correct in action and treatment of our seniors?

If all of those seniors had been treated as they should have been the Tang Soo Do community would have stayed together and would be today, every bit as large, if not larger then the whole of the Tae Kwon Do community. The Kukiwon would not be close the the size that the Moo Duk Kwan would be today if everyone would have stayed together.


Just my belief...


All the best,

 

[Muwubu16858]

H.C. Hwang did so much damage to his seniors over the years to push them away and make room for himself to be senior to everyone related to the Federation. It is sad to look back and see those who were treated so pourly after dedicating themselves to KJN Hwang Kee as they did.

When my teacher sought out permission from GM Hwang Kee to teach in the US, he was fine, but as soon as he came here, Hwang Hyun Chul said, "oh, you have to come to New Jersey and train in new forms and curriculum to be a member, and follow me, and pay this amount for this, etc, etc." My teacher said, no, and that is why I recieved rank in Jidokwan first then we joined Jae Joon Kim in 2006, and now we are with Lee Kang Uk, because my teacher didn't want to work through H.C. Hwang. His words for him are"To Much Headache!"

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

I was happy to be able to participate in Jae Jun Kim's last seminar held here in Michigan prior to his death.

GM J.J. Kim always had an upbeat attitude and was greatly respected by his students. You can go to my myspace page and view the photo album from that seminar. We all had a great time that day.