Cyber bullying or free speech?

[Tez3]

For a few reasons I can't got into names or precise details but this week I'm being asked by the police to make a statement about a case of alleged cyber bullying. There is an attendant police case of an injunction that may have been breached. As it involved a martial arts forum (UK one and unmoderated for the most part) I'd be interested on people's thoughts as there's very mixed views here.

It started on Friday, there was a thread started which was titled " ***** is a S*** referee", it didn't exactly explain why the poster thought this, it was just more in the vein of the title. A couple of people posted stuff saying things like yeah they are s*** and things that would take more asterisks on here! I should explain this person is a female ref (not me) and I believe that is partly the cause of the problem. she posted up asking for people to point out where they thought she was wrong, that all refs make mistakes and that she's still learning. The following posts got more abusive and one poster stated hinting he knew more about her, would post the 'truth' etc. I jumped in because I really can't stand bullying, I don't know this lass at all, never seen her ref but I couldn't read her being abused without saying something. I made the point in subsequent posts that they should stay on topic, ask properly and she'd answer.

My tone was that, ask about her reffing in a manner she can respond to, leave her personal life out of this. I got abuse back 'shut up b****' was one response, mine was that's 'Miss B**** to you!' the first thread was deleted by the owner, another was started, went on in the same vein, that was delted, the owner posted up a thread titled, "Respect on the forum", same stuff posted, they abused him as well saying they had the right to say what they wanted.That thread was deleted. The ref has informed the police and is now receiving abuse for that too, however she has an injunction from the court which a judge put in place in reference to a criminal case where she is a witness/victim, this was the information that one poster was threatening to disclose. There is another thread left, quite bad which the owners have put in a section called 'troll hole' I will provide the link by pm only (if it's not deleted) if any want to read it but I won't put it publically. Some one has also posted a link to a blog that has the deleted threads on, don't know how they did it.


Now, my question is, I'm asking myself this too, is how much is free speech, how much is abuse? Should you go to the police if you are called names etc on the internet or just ignore it, there's a suggestion of threats as well as one poster has said 'he'd slam her' but that's open to interpretation as some have said it's a sexual reference though that too can be seen as threatening.

Does the owner of a forum have the right to delete what he wants, I'd suggest the answer is yes as it's his property and he has to pay any legal bills but how much does the right to free speech apply even when it's hateful? Should we respond to things on the internet that if they were in the media would be libel? For me I couldn't see someone being abused and not stick up for them. None of this would be seen on here. Tbh honest it's a bad situation all round, thoughts please?


PS I also got called a "complete dustbin" roflmao. And that means what?

 

[Cyriacus]

Free Speech is always Free Speech.
If someone is offended, well, that cannot be helped.
I was originally going to go into more detail, but I want no part in even the discussion of such matters, honestly.

EDIT: In fact, the only reason I even Replied is to state the obvious, honestly.

 

[Tez3]

Free Speech is always Free Speech.
If someone is offended, well, that cannot be helped.
I was originally going to go into more detail, but I want no part in even the discussion of such matters, honestly.

EDIT: In fact, the only reason I even Replied is to state the obvious, honestly.

If howevre someone starts abusing you in your home do you have to let them carry on in the name of free speech or would you throw them out? A forum is the property surely of the owner, if he doesn't want people abused he can throw them out. It's not differnet from being the owner of a bar or club and people kick off, you don't have to put up with it.
If someone started bullying you on here on another forum what action would you take? Allow free speech or complain?

Is it free speech to call you names and generally abuse you, I'm not talking about someone disagreeing with you but actually swearing at you, calling you names and bullying you, that's free speech? Would you put up with it if it was in the workplace and face to face?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Legally, Freedom Of Speech and cyber bullying are not related.
Sean

 

[Tez3]

Legally, Freedom Of Speech and cyber bullying are not related.
Sean

That's what I think, those defending what they are saying cite 'freedom of speech' which means that they can say exactly what they want especially as it's the internet. They genuinely believe they can say anything they want, even if it's the worst kind of abuse that would have you suspended/sacked if you said it in the workplace/school. They are furious that anyone has tried to check them even the owner of the site they accuse him of taking their right to freedom of speech away.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
"According to the Freedom Forum Organization, legal systems, and society at large, recognize limits on the freedom of speech, particularly when freedom of speech conflicts with other values or rights.[SUP][39][/SUP] Limitations to freedom of speech may follow the "harm principle" or the "offense principle", for example in the case of pornography or hate speech. Limitations to freedom of speech may occur through legal sanction or social disapprobation, or both"


What was written certainly comes within the description of 'hate speech'. Is hate speech bullying though? It's all quite disturbing tbh.

 

[Cyriacus]

If howevre someone starts abusing you in your home do you have to let them carry on in the name of free speech or would you throw them out? A forum is the property surely of the owner, if he doesn't want people abused he can throw them out. It's not differnet from being the owner of a bar or club and people kick off, you don't have to put up with it.
If someone started bullying you on here on another forum what action would you take? Allow free speech or complain?

Is it free speech to call you names and generally abuse you, I'm not talking about someone disagreeing with you but actually swearing at you, calling you names and bullying you, that's free speech? Would you put up with it if it was in the workplace and face to face?

I originally covered all this. Then got all paranoid about discussing ongoing Cases on Public Forums

 

[Tez3]

I originally covered all this. Then got all paranoid about discussing ongoing Cases on Public Forums

Yeah you said if people get hate abuse they should just lump it. There's no problem about discussing this because the questions I asked are basically 'can you say anything you like on the internet' and 'can owners of forums censor/chuck people off for saying things they don't like', it wasn't to discuss specific cases but if I hadn't outlined this you wouldn't have known what I was talking about.

You don't know the forum concerned nor am I going to mention it in public, nor do you know the people involved than than me and tbh you don't know who I am really.

 

[granfire]

There is free speech and free speech.

I think we got a little spoiled and forgot that free speech is not intended to allow a certain element to act like jerks, but to be able to voice dissent for the powers in the land.

I am German. Our free speech is different from others: Once you start whipping up the emotions and get the natives into a frenzy, you pretty much crossed the line from being able to speak your mind to inciting....the latter is not acceptable.

Also, in the US there is that little thing of Slander and Libel. Spreading lies about people is frowned upon.

I am a little lost though as to the original problem...

Do I get this right that some guy just posted on a forum to bash said female ref and all his buddies with small nuts joined in?
(Internet forums are not 'public', they are pretty much private but open at the discretion of the admin. Me things this fellow needs to swing the ban hammer more freely...)

As to preserving anything on the net....nothing is ever gone. Screen shots, the way back machine....many ways to preserve the infamous for posterity.

 

[K-man]

Firstly, I think I should admonish you on the company you are now keeping. A nice girl like you should not be playing with the dark side! ;-)

Looking at 'freedom of speech', I would say it depends on where you live. In the US it seems that anything goes but in the UK and the Colonies, we are a little more thin skinned (read refined).

I would argue that the abuse you described is, to me, unpalatable but probably legal, unless it implies a threat when technically it could be classed as assault. With regard to 'hateful', we have seen that defended, on this forum, as a constitutional right to say what you like. Regardless, the scenario you gave is bullying and the moderator should have an obligation to ensure that the remarks don't get out of hand.

With your description of the comments, I just wouldn't hang about, but full marks to you for sticking up for the victim.

Cheers!

 

[ballen0351]

Do you guys have a specific law about cyberbullying? We don't here as far as a criminal section. Unless its related to and disrupts school activities. Its also only a school regulation meaning its reported to schools not the police and the school handels it internally. It also only applys to students so an adult can't be cyberbullyed. Other then that I can say or call you anything and I mean anything. The only illegal thing you can say here is a threat of arson. I can't threaten to kill, rape, shoot, or do anything else to you except threaten to burn your house down.

 

[CanuckMA]

No such thing as free speech on a privately owned forum.

 

[jks9199]

Do you guys have a specific law about cyberbullying? We don't here as far as a criminal section. Unless its related to and disrupts school activities. Its also only a school regulation meaning its reported to schools not the police and the school handels it internally. It also only applys to students so an adult can't be cyberbullyed. Other then that I can say or call you anything and I mean anything. The only illegal thing you can say here is a threat of arson. I can't threaten to kill, rape, shoot, or do anything else to you except threaten to burn your house down.

Free speech and forums... Kind of a thorny issue, but it's fairly simple in the US. The board owner isn't the government, therefore the First Amendment (Congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom of speech...) doesn't apply. The board owner can generally do what he wants with what's posted.

As far as the cyber-bullying... That's more complicated. I don't think there are a lot of laws specifically about it yet. Depending on specifically what was communicated, there are a couple of laws about profane speech over the phone/airways I might be able to stretch to fit with a little creativity. But disobeying a court order or injunction is indeed against the law; it's a classification of contempt of court when not specifically prohibited otherwise.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yeah you said if people get hate abuse they should just lump it. There's no problem about discussing this because the questions I asked are basically 'can you say anything you like on the internet' and 'can owners of forums censor/chuck people off for saying things they don't like', it wasn't to discuss specific cases but if I hadn't outlined this you wouldn't have known what I was talking about.

You don't know the forum concerned nor am I going to mention it in public, nor do you know the people involved than than me and tbh you don't know who I am really.

Thats pretty much why I elected to redact a few things.
Lump it, isnt really what I was trying to say, so much as, its going to happen to someone somehow.

 

[Tez3]

There are laws here governing the internet, it comes under the Telegraph Act, it covers abuse, threatening behaviour etc. Here, not that long ago, a sports commentator sued the owners of a forum rather than the posters for libel and won so owners of forums are taking the advice of lawyers now.
The subject of free speech is always one of importance and always worth discussing I think.

I could leave that forum but I have a postition in a sport here that means I'm fairly high profile so what I say, being careful of course, has a bit of weight. I won't be forced off there because of idiots.
The owner has posted now basically, well explicitly saying Foxtrot Oscar to certain posters. His lawyers believe he's the one that can be held accountable for what is said so is understandably trying to sort it.

Do people think laws should be passed dealing specifically with what is said on the internet or are current laws ( in your countries) enough? We've had cases here of children who have killed themselves after being 'cyber' bullied, I'm not computer literate nor 'up' with all the modern computer media, I barely manage this and FB lol so I find this bewildering and out of my comfort zone, I've been spoilt I think my being on here!

 

[Brian King]

In my opinion, anytime a professional is involved with the legal system they should procure themselves legal counsel. It does not matter the cause or degree of their involvement with the case. Legal advise from the store clerk at the local 24 hour, the person behind or in front of you while in line, or that person that sounds intelligent sharing the elevator does not weigh towards 'real' legal advice. The same for on-line martial arts forums and the people that post on them.

As to the general situation regarding Referee's being called names ummm that has always been part of the referee's job. If they cannot take it they should find a new profession. It is well known that all referee's suffer from blindness, work for the other team, are deliberately slow when they are not deliberately too fast to call a decision. That the name calling is on line complicates the issue only a tiny bit. At the sporting event the outrage at bad decisions is instant and can involve mob mentality, including booing and throwing trash and vulgar chanting. If a ref is not physically harmed but is called a load of asterisks do they then sue the facility that hosted the event, do they sue the teams or individuals participating in the sporting event, the promoter? Tez3 as a referee how do you deal with crowds yelling or booing at your decision, for example to stop a match? Does a professional referee start yelling back at the crowd? Does a professional that gets their feelings hurt and go to the authorities? If so, do they do so in public or behind closed doors to work out some kind of solution?

If a person in a sporting crowd gets out of control I think the ref can have them tossed from the arena (not positive on this) but have seen people that get into fist fights tossed from arena's by arena staff and police, but have never seen a ref personally involved. They should remain above such conduct.

Professionals getting involved with a pissing match over name calling on line seems rather juvenile to me. If the forum owners cannot keep things civil simply leave the forum. A referee should already know that they are a necessary evil (perhaps that is why their uniforms often look like prison wear?) and that they will not be liked by everyone or even the majority. They should know that people will call them names. Egging on the crowd or the discussion (venting) by a referee is counter productive and crude in my opinion.

A referee is a public figure and as such like political figures slander and libel is very difficult to prove and is kind of a silly charge. Sexual harassment might be easier to prove if there was actually harassment. Threats if proven should be addressed but often the cry of "threats" is over exaggerated by those with thin skins or weak arguments as a means of gaining the position of victimhood and censoring the voice of dissension. As a professional woman referee and a person that is part of the legal system Tez3 any statement you make does carry weight and much thought should be given as too what the statement will say about women referee's, referee's in general, and on line communication and the sport represented. The statement will or should be a matter of public record and so will be a part of your record. I would not take it lightly.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Tez3]

Thanks Brian a good post!

We have a referee who posts on the same forum who refs for UFC, he gets flak from people but on the whole it's 'professional' flak just as you describe, he doesn't answer the knockers but is happy to answer anything about refereeing. I think where things started going wrong was when it started getting far too personal and it was actually clear this was because she was a female and what doesn't help, though perhaps not understood to non Brits she's a member of the British aristocracy, that's like a red rag to a bull for some. It also means the media are very keen to delve into whatever the family are up to. My posts asked that people keep to the subject and knock off the personal abuse or keep it to her reffing at least. Despite saying she was a bad ref, they didn't want to expand on this choosing instead to try to humiliate her. This is where I find it difficult and confusing as you can probably tell, I really don't know where I'm coming from on this! In her posts she only answered, politely, about reffing and fights, she didn't join in what they are calling banter. To be on the end of an onslaught of abuse about her looks, heritage, being a female etc can't have been easy, a lot of sexual and violent comments were made, none of this was about reffing or even martial arts.

We have something called 'banter' here, I don't know if you call it that as well, it's basically the chat between lads(usually lads) that is joking and often full of mock insults but often people say it's banter when it's not, it's bullying.

The forum where all this was taking place is somewhere that is hard to stay off if you want a fight, advertise a show, ask for fighters etc or work as an official, it's always been robust but this is something new I'm afraid. I'm happy with what I posted, I probably sounded like an old fashioned prudish nanny but I've had messages saying I kept it dignified,was calm and reasonable so am pleased it came over like that, it's what I intended. I've found often that when people call you names you turn it back on them a la Desert Rats, never join in the name calling and hysteria. Making a joke can often defuse a tense situation. This lass chose to call the police, tbh, I don't know whether that's good or bad but her choice, the police are investigating whether there's any criminal intent/activity or whether it's just over the top 'banter' of the type you describe, they don't prosecute, that's up to the CPS.

 

[granfire]

well, she might have gotten some PMs well past the acceptable level or even intrusion in her real private life. It has happened before, especially when the internet is an extension of your professional life and you are known by real name, possibly with contact info.

 

[Tez3]

well, she might have gotten some PMs well past the acceptable level or even intrusion in her real private life. It has happened before, especially when the internet is an extension of your professional life and you are known by real name, possibly with contact info.

I think that's more than likely, I don't think they would have left it at just the public insults. Her family home is one of our stately homes, the family well enough known and easy to look up even without anything she does. I will say though she's a very talented side saddle rider and is very into dressage!

do empty your in box lol, can't PM you lol!

 

[granfire]

do empty your in box lol, can't PM you lol!

Done!

 

[David43515]

Like Tez pointed out, the forum is privately owned. You have a right to free speech, but that`s not the same as a right to be heard. You can stand in the street and call me names until you are blue in the face, but if you step into my yard to do it I have the right to ask you to leave. I don`t know the law in the UK, but I would assume that as long as it doesn`t effect her (the ref`s) income or contain any threats of violence there probably isn`t much she can do but ignore it. If there is no actual basis for the complaints about her reffing, and it hurts her standing in the MA community in a way she can factually demonstrate, then she might have a case for defimation of character, but even that`s a long shot since you`re talking about a large group of people. A lawyer might suggest that she go after the forum owner for allowing them a place to voice their bile, but that`s like smacking the busboy because the steak was undercooked.

As for what I would do in her place? Probably ignore it. I know I`m unusual in this, but other people`s opinions of what I do or how I do it don`t matter much to me.Never have.