Cung Le vs. Shamrock

[terryl965]

UM, I knew that. Frank, not Ken.

We knew that you knew that we knew,OK:duh:

 

[masherdong]

Excellent fight from both corners! Too bad Frank got his arm broke, it would of been nice to see how the fight could of ended.

 

[Twin Fist]

Hmmm, maybe this will shut the Gracie fanbois up for a few minutes.

 

[Makalakumu]

Any vids of this fight up yet?

 

[exile]

This is a really, really interesting development.

For a long time, people have misused MMA results in their efforts to diminish one kind of martial art for the reputational benefit of another. I can recall any number of threads in which the success of grapplers in MMAs was taken as proof positive that traditional striking MA techs were inherently inferior to the grappling techs of the BJJ winners at that point. I can recall repeated taunts aimed at the striking TMAs from grappling advocates whose arguments basically came down to, if you can't make it work in the octagon, what makes you think you can use it in the street?

But outcomes like this show that like any other martial art, martial sport or martial anything, MMAs reward the fighter who's on his or her game on the day. There's no inherent advantage or disadvantage to the grappler or the striker. It's who's fighting, not their chosen fighting system. So much ink has been spilled, and so many bytes wasted, on a non-issue. Maybe this outcome will help lay that particular ghost—'if TMAs are so good, why don't they ever win in the arena?'—to rest. And if, someday, CL loses his title to another fighter, striker or grappler, possibly people will then understand that the reason was just that on that day, the other guy was better, and inherent MA superiority/inferiority had nothing to do with it...

 

[PictonMA]

Shamrock was a fool to stand for 3 rounds with someone as versatile and effective in kickng as Le.

After the first round when he proved he could stand with him he should have changed it up and really made an effort to take the fight to the ground and keep it there.

It was a good fight all around but I wasn't impressed by Shamrock's showmanship and foolishness in keeping the fight in standup.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is a really, really interesting development.

For a long time, people have misused MMA results in their efforts to diminish one kind of martial art for the reputational benefit of another. I can recall any number of threads in which the success of grapplers in MMAs was taken as proof positive that traditional striking MA techs were inherently inferior to the grappling techs of the BJJ winners at that point. I can recall repeated taunts aimed at the striking TMAs from grappling advocates whose arguments basically came down to, if you can't make it work in the octagon, what makes you think you can use it in the street?

But outcomes like this show that like any other martial art, martial sport or martial anything, MMAs reward the fighter who's on his or her game on the day. There's no inherent advantage or disadvantage to the grappler or the striker. It's who's fighting, not their chosen fighting system. So much ink has been spilled, and so many bytes wasted, on a non-issue. Maybe this outcome will help lay that particular ghost—'if TMAs are so good, why don't they ever win in the arena?'—to rest. And if, someday, CL loses his title to another fighter, striker or grappler, possibly people will then understand that the reason was just that on that day, the other guy was better, and inherent MA superiority/inferiority had nothing to do with it...

Sanshou is not exactly a TMA but it very much comes from them and much of that is CMA, but I do agree

I have said for some time now that if you want to compare MMA to another MA you need to compare it to Sanshou. But Cung Le is a great fighter regardless of style so now we wait for the next match to see what happens.

And don't forget that sports Sanshou has some pretty hard takedowns as well as kicks and punches you have to worry about and Cung Le has another thing going for him, although it has been a while, he is not unaccustomed to grappling he has done it before in high school as a wrestler although I have no doubt he would prefer to keep his Sanshou game in the ring,

 

[MysticNinjaJay]

I really enjoyed the fight it was great! Cung was not well received by the MMA community for a long time because of bias against TMA and accusations of his San Shou record being padded.

This fight was like his initiation. Frank is a legend in MMA, arguably #1 p4p in his prime as the UFC MW champion. Cung was a 2 to 1 underdog coming into this fight. This when was very significant for his legacy.

There are still questions about his ground game. Frank has been hyping his standup for his last couple of fights and he looked good against Cung but he abandoned the ground because he wanted to prove he was on par with him on the feet. I think he wanted to settle a score as Cung was his training partner years back and used to beat up on him before he became knowledgeable about striking.

Cung's opponents from this point on should be Top 10 Middleweights. I'm expecting either Misaki or Santiago to be next. Gary Shaw will probably work on getting a match between Cung and Robbie Lawler, the EliteXC MW Champion. A dream matchup would be Cung Le vs. Anderson Silva but that won't happen so long as Cung sticks with Strikeforce.

 

[kidswarrior]

This is a really, really interesting development.

I can recall any number of threads in which the success of grapplers in MMAs was taken as proof positive that traditional striking MA techs were inherently inferior to the grappling techs of the BJJ winners at that point. I can recall repeated taunts aimed at the striking TMAs from grappling advocates whose arguments basically came down to, if you can't make it work in the octagon, what makes you think you can use it in the street?

Well then, I guess San Shou would work on the street, eh? But the hardcore San Soo, or Sanda, that I believe it is derived from, has been doing well on the street and for the military/police for some time now, if I'm not mistaken.

Sanshou is not exactly a TMA but it very much comes from them and much of that is CMA, but I do agree

And don't forget that sports Sanshou has some pretty hard takedowns as well as kicks and punches you have to worry about...

Exactly. And while I'm no expert, don't some of those sport take downs come from Shuai Jiao, itself a very effective TMA/CMA?

 

[exile]

Well then, I guess San Shou would work on the street, eh? But the hardcore San Soo, or Sanda, that I believe it is derived from, has been doing well on the street and for the military/police for some time now, if I'm not mistaken.

Exactly. And while I'm no expert, don't some of those sport take downs come from Shuai Jiao, itself a very effective TMA/CMA?

It's funny, but for some reason, those kinds of facts—or the particularly brutal application the Japanese Special Forces units have made of Shotokan karate—never seem to 'count' with the sort of person I have in mind. All you get is that same mantra over and over again.

But if CL continues on the path he seems to be on, you can imagine a new generation of MMAists adopting primarily striking weapons, having learned how to avoid going to the ground, and in a few years we may hear the same 'logic' from the other direction from those same people who have been confusing the practitioner with the art up till now: grappling is no good, it doesn't work in the ring... and it'll be the same mistake!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well then, I guess San Shou would work on the street, eh? But the hardcore San Soo, or Sanda, that I believe it is derived from, has been doing well on the street and for the military/police for some time now, if I'm not mistaken.

Exactly. And while I'm no expert, don't some of those sport take downs come from Shuai Jiao, itself a very effective TMA/CMA?

Your not mistaken, Sanda aka Sanshou is taught to the Chinese Military and is part of the training of Chinese police and it tends to be a bit more brutal than what you see in the ring but I still would not want to have to go up against a Sport Sanshou guy in the street either, if anyone has any doubt about it just watch any video on the web of Cung Le. Granted he is at the top of his game but if you look into a sports sanshou school just look at how hard those people train. They would not go quietly of that I am sure.

 

[14 Kempo]

There was a vid on YouTube of the fight, but it has been removed due to copyright issues. I would bet there are vids out there, however. I was able to see the third round prior to its removal. Looked like a good fight until Shamrock's arm broke.

 

[ares]

after watching the Le/shamrock fight I noticed 2 things. 1) Le out classed shamrock and took the fight seriously while shamrock seemed to just showboat and got punished for it.
2) Le is a force to be taken seriously. He kicked shamrock at will and played his own game not his rivals. I don't see anyone beating him. Not pride, ufc, or any other company has anyone to counter him. Impressive.

 

[exile]

after watching the Le/shamrock fight I noticed 2 things. 1) Le out classed shamrock and took the fight seriously while shamrock seemed to just showboat and got punished for it.
2) Le is a force to be taken seriously. He kicked shamrock at will and played his own game not his rivals. I don't see anyone beating him. Not pride, ufc, or any other company has anyone to counter him. Impressive.

Now the challenge will be for CL not to himself fall into the celebrity-fighter trap. The hardest thing for a successful competitor is probably staying hungry. If you don't, someone who is will come along and knock you off your perch.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Now the challenge will be for CL not to himself fall into the celebrity-fighter trap. The hardest thing for a successful competitor is probably staying hungry. If you don't, someone who is will come along and knock you off your perch.

Agreed but he didn't seem to let all the Sanshou championships go to his head so hopefully he won't let this go to his head either

 

[MysticNinjaJay]

There was a vid on YouTube of the fight, but it has been removed due to copyright issues. I would bet there are vids out there, however. I was able to see the third round prior to its removal. Looked like a good fight until Shamrock's arm broke.

Here's the full fight:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4w9i0_frank-shamrock-vs-cung-le-strikefor_sport

Dailymotion links usually stay up longer than Youtube ones.

after watching the Le/shamrock fight I noticed 2 things. 1) Le out classed shamrock and took the fight seriously while shamrock seemed to just showboat and got punished for it.

Frank showboats in all his fights. He did the same thing to Baroni and crushed him. Le did outclass him but Frank's choice to stand the duration of the match was his downfall. He wasn't there to do anything it takes to win he was fighting to prove his standup skills and superiority over Cung Le.

Cung was prepared for anything Frank tried against him. Had Frank tried to take the fight to the ground we may have seen a different fight.

2) Le is a force to be taken seriously. He kicked shamrock at will and played his own game not his rivals. I don't see anyone beating him. Not pride, ufc, or any other company has anyone to counter him. Impressive.

I think he is definitely the greatest striker in his weight class with the possible exception of Anderson Silva and a force but he's just now hit the MMA big leagues. All his opponents from now on should be Top 10 MWs and unlike Frank they will be willing to test Cung in all areas of the MMA game.

I think Cung's biggest strengths are striking and wrestling. We haven't seen him on his back so we won't know how he'll do until someone takes it there.
I think he can handily beat sluggers like Robbie Lawler and Rich Franklin. But good sub grapplers like Paulo Filho and Yoshihiro Akiyama would give Cung trouble. Matt Lindland would especially be tough because he is a better wrestler than Cung on paper with good submission skills. Yushin Okami and Nathan Marquardt are also strong wrestlers. Cung's takedown defense, which is good, would be essential in those fights.

Kazuo Misaki and Jorge Santiago are likely to be Cung's next opponents. Both are tough and should give him good fights.

Anderson Silva vs. Cung Le is a dream matchup. I think Cung could pull off a decision against him in an all out standup war. And ofcourse I wouldn't be surprised if Frank Shamrock wants a rematch, approaching it with a better gameplan (i.e. use his grappling as well as striking). It'll be interesting to see where Cung Le's MMA career goes from here.

 

[exile]

Agreed but he didn't seem to let all the Sanshou championships go to his head so hopefully he won't let this go to his head either

He may be that rare bird, the fighter who actually would rather fight than draw media attention to himself as a 'personality'. Let's hope so.