Those of you in the JKD world who use them, how, when and why do you use crescent kicks? I went about 7-8 years thinking they were next to useless... I've come to see things differently now. I'll post why, but I want input from the rest of your first (no use waisting my time if no one bites).
crescent kicks?
- Thread starter achilles
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Flatlander
Grandmaster
Hi achilles,
I do not train crescent kicks as a fundamental because I don't see a real combative application for any highline kick. I would use an oblique as a stop kick or a front or snap kick to the groin, or a side kick at a further range. From any range that I could reasonably execute a crescent, I could just as easily keep both feet on the ground an apply a hand technique.
Having said that, I will add the caveat that one never know's what one's body will do when working from the void, and should a crescent kick manifest itself, so be it. :asian:
I do not train crescent kicks as a fundamental because I don't see a real combative application for any highline kick. I would use an oblique as a stop kick or a front or snap kick to the groin, or a side kick at a further range. From any range that I could reasonably execute a crescent, I could just as easily keep both feet on the ground an apply a hand technique.
Having said that, I will add the caveat that one never know's what one's body will do when working from the void, and should a crescent kick manifest itself, so be it. :asian:
achilles said:
A crescent kick is good for an instance when your opponent is bent over. It's more of a secondary technique. I'd never lead with a crescent or most kicks at all. It's never a primary technique, unless of course your opponent is a midget. :asian:
DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
I dont do JKD but I have an opinion that you may find useful. I think of a crescent kick as a left hook, or right hook, with alot more power and weight behind it. What flatlander said is true about just staying safe and using a hand technique, so if your going to try it against good fighters you have to be super fast with it, and have perfect technique. I f you throw it hard enough it will bang the crap out of them even if they block it.
S
sifu Adams
Guest
I don't understand what you are refering to. I was tought a cresent kick starts like a ax kick but the impact is at the top instead of on the way down.. If that is what you are talking about they are veary usefull for inside fighting. the 7th degree master in our system has used it on me and IT WORKS. he kicks to the head standing one foot away. if done right you don't see is comming you just feel it (as you get up off the floor). I have used is to draw my oppont to shift his weight to the back foot so I can spinkick or advance in. a lot of the time I end up kicking his gard out of the way.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
I've nailed people with them solidly and been nailed with them.
They work. Training them to be effective is difficult.
Regards,
Steve
They work. Training them to be effective is difficult.
Regards,
Steve
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I do crescent kicks alot. It does take flexibility. Mostly it is an inside move and alot of times at the end of multiple attacks. Like after doing a fake, move in, punch punch and you're right there for a crescent to the head. It takes strength also to move it laterally with a snap when it is high to the head. We don't do crescent's to the body, other kicks for that. TW
sifu Adams said:
I'm not sure if you are asking about my post or not, but what I was refering to was the fact that the head is not the only place that can be targeted with a cresent kick. From my experience, the head is the most common target but its not the only place it can be thrown to. The thing though with a cresent kick to the body is that you need to have more distance between you and the intended target, so its not really a close range manuever. A crecent kick can be thrown like an ax kick but keep in mind though that its a lateral motion whereas an ax kick comes down on the target. I also find cresent kicks sometimes useful for sweeps too (depending on the scenario). - Luke
S
sifu Adams
Guest
you would have to enlighten me on how to use a cresent kick to the body. the way we do it the inpack would be from the side of your target. shooting that to the ribs (ex) I don't think would be effective do to the telagraphing and how wide you would have to make the move. Looks like your appont would see is comming a mile away sort of like throwing a haymaker with the leg. We have a striat leg sweep we teach at white belt but we don't call that a cresent kick. the only way i can see it being used out side is like I said before and that is to use is to knock now the arms or gard. I you can explain to me how to use it to the body.
My Bad. I as thinking ax kick. But I still use economy of motion and closest weapon to the closest target as a base formula and crescents don't fit in as primary attacks either.
Adept
Master Black Belt
I tend to take the opposite view with crescent kicks. If I use a crescent kick it is usually a feint to draw out a counter, so that I can counter the counter. Like others have said, it's also a good in-close technique, but when I'm in that close I'd rather go for an elbow to the head or body, or a knee.akja said:
Adept said:
The 2nd part of your answer was key. Theres something better or more approriate, using another principle, "simplicity."
There are times that certain techniques can be applied but when we train to use something more "direct" as a base for all techniques the some techniques remain on the back burner.
Shin kicks to me are about as useful as a an ax or crescent kick. Theres usually something better and far more useful which leads to other technique. Direct technique can "overlap" other technique in way that it becomes "one."
Any kick, although very useful at times are very hard to become "one" with other technique.
sifu Adams said:
I'm not aware of how crescent kicks are taught outside of Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do, so I'm not sure how you learned it or the applications you use it for. The places I've trained at have always taught two versions of the kick. One version comes from the outside and moves across (Outside to inside cresent kick). The other version involves chambering the hips across the body and then bringing the leg across so that you hit them with the outside of your foot (inside to outside cresent kick). Other people might have different applications for using it against the body, but in the instances that I do use it against the body, I use an outside to inside crescent kick off of the rear leg (for the most part). The way I was taught to throw an outside to inside crescent kick doesn't involve any more telegraphing than say a round kick and with decent power. For the most part, I use it if they're retreating backwards away from me and I've gotten them to raise their hands or generally if they've raised their hands and I'm close enough to throw it. I also use it against the legs as a sweep if I manage to trap the person's kick or instances where I can time it so that he/she is in mid kick(something I struggle with). I'll also use it sometimes as a sweep if they're moving forwards or backwards rapidly. I generally agree with you though on using the inside to outside to the body. Not only because of the fact the chambering action can serve as a way of giving your opponent a clue as to what you are about to do but also if your attempt fails it seems as though you would run the risk of partially exposing your back to the person, which is bad. I should try to explore it more though so I'll have better insight about it. Keep in mind the applications I've mentioned can also be done with other kicks, particularly a round kick. I just see it as an alternative to always throwing a round kick in scenarios that you could effectively use either. My main intention though was to respond to Flatlander's post in stating that cresecent kicks are a high line attack. They don't have to be exclusively thrown to the head and can be used against the body and legs as well. I hope I was able to make it clear how I use them against the body and legs. If not, just let me know and I will try to clarify futher. I'm also trying to locate footage online so that you can see what I mean (its eaiser for me to show you in some way rather than just relying on words alone) but so far I haven't had any luck locating one. I always welcome opprotunites to either strengthen my position or in the event I'm wrong to rethink it, so if you still disagree with me, I'm open for discussion of it
If I do manange to find some footage, I'll paste a link of it in here. -Luke
- Thread Starter
- #15
Here is how I see things...
I'm with delmar concerning the analogy of crescent kicks with hook punches (backfists two if you include the outward or inside-out crescent kick). They are used essentially in the same way as round kicks, but I think a round kick is safer on the knee considering the sheering like pressure you put on the joint while kicking something solid (like the body) with a more conventional crescent kick. However, I learned a tool from Eric Paulson called a curve shin, which is very similar to a crescent kick (slightly more upward) with the exception that the toes are turned inward and you hit with the tibia. That seems like a better option for the body. As far as the head or legs go (i.e. targets with less mass that can be sufficiently influenced by the crescent kick and thus avoid sideward injury to the knee joint), I like to use both the edge of my foot as well as the sole occasionally for the inward crescent kick. I think that the utlility of the crescent kick depends largely on the range. From long range I see no reason to use it other than as a defensive, parrying manuver (e.g. pak tek). Crescent kicks seem most valuable in middle range. While it is possible to crunch up and deliver a round kick or hooking heel kick, these both are less intuitive than the crescent kick. I can't remember exactly where I saw it, but there is a picture of Bruce Lee doing an inward crescent kick and scorring from about 12-18" away from his opponent. Such a feat would be much more difficult to do with a round kick with out some sort of displacement (incidentally another valuable tactic). Moreover, crescent kicks are easily added to boxing combinations and can even be spliced in the middle of some whilst maintaining rhythm. Crescent kicks can also be employed as sweeps (look at indonesian, japanses and chinese arts to name only a few whose sweeps are similar to crescent kicks to the point that the only obvious difference is the plane of movement). While the energy is different than that of a crescent kick sometimes (contrast Savate's coup de pied bas with Judo's okuri ashi harai to understand what I mean) there is some commonality.
I'm with delmar concerning the analogy of crescent kicks with hook punches (backfists two if you include the outward or inside-out crescent kick). They are used essentially in the same way as round kicks, but I think a round kick is safer on the knee considering the sheering like pressure you put on the joint while kicking something solid (like the body) with a more conventional crescent kick. However, I learned a tool from Eric Paulson called a curve shin, which is very similar to a crescent kick (slightly more upward) with the exception that the toes are turned inward and you hit with the tibia. That seems like a better option for the body. As far as the head or legs go (i.e. targets with less mass that can be sufficiently influenced by the crescent kick and thus avoid sideward injury to the knee joint), I like to use both the edge of my foot as well as the sole occasionally for the inward crescent kick. I think that the utlility of the crescent kick depends largely on the range. From long range I see no reason to use it other than as a defensive, parrying manuver (e.g. pak tek). Crescent kicks seem most valuable in middle range. While it is possible to crunch up and deliver a round kick or hooking heel kick, these both are less intuitive than the crescent kick. I can't remember exactly where I saw it, but there is a picture of Bruce Lee doing an inward crescent kick and scorring from about 12-18" away from his opponent. Such a feat would be much more difficult to do with a round kick with out some sort of displacement (incidentally another valuable tactic). Moreover, crescent kicks are easily added to boxing combinations and can even be spliced in the middle of some whilst maintaining rhythm. Crescent kicks can also be employed as sweeps (look at indonesian, japanses and chinese arts to name only a few whose sweeps are similar to crescent kicks to the point that the only obvious difference is the plane of movement). While the energy is different than that of a crescent kick sometimes (contrast Savate's coup de pied bas with Judo's okuri ashi harai to understand what I mean) there is some commonality.
S
sifu Adams
Guest
Luke, I don't think we are far off from agreeing. I enjoy a good debate and new tech. We have been taught the same as you with the addition we teach the foot drops in the middle. (like a Ax kick however no power) many of our forms have the cresent kick where you smash (hit) the oppisit hand with your foot. this stops the movement and keeps you from over rotating. a few months ago I had a TKD master in my gym asking about the (smash) cresent kick. In the kata he was told to hit his left hand with his right foot. he was haveing trouble with keeping his leg striat and still hit his foot. I told him to raise his hand above his head because his leg was longer and he had to use the body to absorb the distance. he told me in the kata the arm had to be striat shoulder level. looked at the differnt moves going in and out of the tech. we came up with a cresent kick the chambered after at the end of the kick then went into a side kick. great move. the cresent kick was used to parry the arms out of the way and open up the ribs for a side kick. Soon and my shoulder get better (tore rotator cup) I am going to try this one. This is the reason I ask about a cresent kick to the body I can seem to see a way that would be better than a good old side,round, instep, kick.
C
Crash02
Guest
What we are taught is that a cresent kick is used as a clearing or turning kick.sifu Adams said:
As in Sifu Adams quote you parry an arm and side kick is an excellent example. Other applications maybe to parry a kick or stike as a way to open or close an opponet, and even a cresent kick to the shoulder to turn or posibbly of balance.
