Contact or non contact?

[Joab]

The system I am most familiar with is American Combato, founded by Professor Bradley J. Steiner. Professor Steiner did not allow any contact at all in class due to concern with preventing injury or death. Professor Steiner did not believe that stopping short of making contact would bring about a psychological barrier that would prevent you from making contact if you were using the form on an attacker on the streets based on his own experiences being attacked and successfully defending himself in the Bronx, as well as the experiences of other students. Do you find this to be the case? Can you successfully learn to defend yourself without making contact in class, or is full contact necessary or at least preferable to non contact when it comes to preparing yourself to defend yourself against an attacker on the streets?

 

[Blindside]

Have you ever been really hit? Hit hard, and had to keep the fight going when things were a bit fuzzy? Hit hard, and it felt the guy just imbedded your ribs into your liver... and you had to keep going. Thats what contact teaches you on the receiving end, willpower, fighting spirit, whatever you want to call it, and I can't imagine a drill that would replicate that.

I'm very skeptical of teaching "no touch" self-defense techniques as well, obviously the other guy isn't resisiting and doesn't actively defend himself against your responses, so you can't learn to read intention and movement through touch. Obviously you can't break someone's neck, or gouge his eyes, or drive his balls up into his throat, but alot of other arts manage to practice this without killing their partners.

Lamont

 

[Joab]

Yes, I've been hit and kicked hard during my life, and my successes in taking such punishment and being able to give back and prevail have been mixed over the years, mostly when I was very young. yes, there certainly is a toughness you can develop by being hit and knowing how it feels, at the same time, there are techniques like the ones you mentioned (And American Combato does teach) that can't be used without serious injury or death. I'm undecided o this issue, both sides make good points.

 

[MattJ]

Martial arts training must include contact to have any hope of functionality. Hitting AND getting hit. Swimming on dry land, etc.

 

[theletch1]

I teach the occasional women's self defense seminar and allow the ladies to hit one of my staff or myself "full force". We're very well padded. Far, far too often when one of these students hits someone with everything they have in a combative manner for the first time the reaction is: freeze, gasp, think about what they just did. It isn't always the getting hit that is necessary in training as the getting the idea of what it feels like to actually hit someone.

 

[bignick]

I have sparred with a few guys that came from a non-contact background. You don't always think punches in tae kwon do, but he came in and threw an under punch to his gut. Even with the chest protector I dropped him and almost made him puke. It wasn't even that hard of a punch. He was just completely unprepared for any contact.

Same reason we do repetition, ingrain those movements. You have to have at least some familiarity with impact not to make yourself a tough guy by showing how much pain you can absorb, but also to learn what it does to your momentum, balance, posture, breathing, and a number of things that external forces on your body change.

 

[Twin Fist]

calling yourself a martial artist if you have never been hit is the same as calling yourself a great lover if you are a virgin






it doesnt matter how many times you have SIMULATED it, till you have done it, you havnt

 

[seasoned]

calling yourself a martial artist if you have never been hit is the same as calling yourself a great lover if you are a virgin it doesnt matter how many times you have SIMULATED it, till you have done it, you havnt

We are all putting our security in the hands of a milatary, that does not kill in training, but is expected to do so after 12 weeks of basic combat training. Your above statements are very true, but we call our recruits warriors when they have yet to go to war. We expect them to defend to the death, without ever killing. They don't get wounded in training, but yet show bravery beyond comparison when fallen on the battle field. A lot can be said for the mental aspects of being trained passed you physical ability, as well as feeling the rib breaking pain. IMO it starts with the mental building up with a sprinkling of body abuse that some MA schools just don’t do.

 

[Andrew Green]

The system I am most familiar with is American Combato, founded by Professor Bradley J. Steiner. Professor Steiner did not allow any contact at all in class due to concern with preventing injury or death. Professor Steiner did not believe that stopping short of making contact would bring about a psychological barrier that would prevent you from making contact if you were using the form on an attacker on the streets based on his own experiences being attacked and successfully defending himself in the Bronx, as well as the experiences of other students. Do you find this to be the case? Can you successfully learn to defend yourself without making contact in class, or is full contact necessary or at least preferable to non contact when it comes to preparing yourself to defend yourself against an attacker on the streets?

About as well as you can learn to swim without getting in the water.

And to be honest, the "injury or death" line is in my mind very misguided. Look at all of the people that train with hard contact regularly and yet still manage to avoid injury. Most MMA fights don't even end with any serious injuries.

I've done lighter contact stuff as well, and to be honest, I think there was more injuries. You just don't learn to protect yourself as well when the other guy isn't really trying to hit you. It also messes up your sense of distancing, timing and gets you in the habit of defending strikes that wouldn't have hit you anyways.

I think a person would gain far more benefit training against heavy bags and other targets then they would against a person that won't make contact, at least then they would be hitting something.

 

[Big Don]

Part of sparring and other contact is learning how to take a punch, a kick, a strike. If you fold the first time you take a hit, no amount of training is going to help. If however, you can take a punch, your chances of survival dramatically increase. Two things will happen when you spar, or train with contact:
You WILL get hit.
It WILL hurt.
As a Kenpo (EPAK) student, most of the time, when I learn the technique in the air it isn't much more than "Monkey see, monkey do", once I've been attacked on the technique a few times, it's a whole different story.
What it really comes down to is the old saying:
Train hard, fight hard and win; train easy, fight easy and die easy.

 

[Korppi76]

I can understand that training can be mostly non contact but I think you must train them sometimes (once per week) with contact.
I have noticed that if I miss contact training for sometime (example missing training or being sick for couple of months) the first contact is often little surprise.

 

[seasoned]

I think a person would gain far more benefit training against heavy bags and other targets then they would against a person that won't make contact, at least then they would be hitting something.

Very profound point Andrew Green. As you have hit on above, the warrior spirit begins within our minds, in how we perceive survival and culminates within our training. When a new student joins a DoJo he is not expected to immediately get hit, to see if they can take it. Very few people would stay. It starts with you knowing your reason for being in any particular MA setting, and to adhere to the strict guide lines that a serious DoJo, or training hall definitely needs to have. Right from day one, there should be an air of seriousness that permeates, and from there the mental toughness begins. The military and LE train from the inside out. Once the mind has been taken to a point in your training where you can withstand, then you are prepared to get hit or even die in your pursuit of survival. The mind and spirit goes first, so therefore should be trained first. Once you are prepared to get hit, or to the extreme, even die, then and only then are you well prepared for victory. Also as a side note, then and only then will the heavy bag come alive to you, and not be just a hanging piece of nothing. Sorry for the rant, I know I am preaching to the choir, but it just seems right to say. J

 

[MJS]

The system I am most familiar with is American Combato, founded by Professor Bradley J. Steiner. Professor Steiner did not allow any contact at all in class due to concern with preventing injury or death. Professor Steiner did not believe that stopping short of making contact would bring about a psychological barrier that would prevent you from making contact if you were using the form on an attacker on the streets based on his own experiences being attacked and successfully defending himself in the Bronx, as well as the experiences of other students. Do you find this to be the case? Can you successfully learn to defend yourself without making contact in class, or is full contact necessary or at least preferable to non contact when it comes to preparing yourself to defend yourself against an attacker on the streets?

IMHO, I think that contact needs to be made, especially if you're a serious student and training for self defense purposes. However, it should be gradually introduced. If you can't handle a hard shot in the dojo, whats going to happen on the street?

 

[Ninebird8]

In all three of the kung fu schools I have trained and been ranked in, there was a sliding scale from barely being hit to full contact over time. There is a tape of me fighting my Shaolin master for over 4 hours with me all padded up and he was not. At the time, it was one of the most profound and revealing times of my training and my life. It also gave me the will to keep on going, especially after being taken to the ground (my Shaolin master is 5' 11" tall, 300 lbs and no fat, and I am 5'4" and 150 lbs). This punishment was something I hated at the time but after 7-10 years of this training I knew I could take a punch...LOL!! When I started with my tai chi master, and getting older, I found it became much better to avoid getting hit as much as possible, LOL, but frankly it is unavoidable. To this day, my old body can still take significant shots while I grin/bear it. But it has also been taught to me at this point, after so long, how to absorb and give it back, how to use foot movement to get out of the way while still remaining in range to attack simultaneously, etc. But, and I will say this, the most important aspect of contact is to get over the FEAR of getting hit!!! Because, my brothers and sisters, no matter how many years of training one might have, and how many ranks one must possess, there is one truism: you will get hit!! My tai chi/white crane master is 6'1" 165 lbs, but hits like my other master above, using fa jing and extreme internal power. And, my eagle claw master to this day, at age 73, can grab you with his claw and still almost go right through your skin. Sooooo.....while some may find this brutal in today's society, like others have said, one must know first how to take a hit so one is not distracted mentally from saving your own life!!

 

[kidswarrior]

In all three of the kung fu schools I have trained and been ranked in, there was a sliding scale from barely being hit to full contact over time. There is a tape of me fighting my Shaolin master for over 4 hours with me all padded up and he was not. At the time, it was one of the most profound and revealing times of my training and my life. It also gave me the will to keep on going, especially after being taken to the ground (my Shaolin master is 5' 11" tall, 300 lbs and no fat, and I am 5'4" and 150 lbs). This punishment was something I hated at the time but after 7-10 years of this training I knew I could take a punch...LOL!! When I started with my tai chi master, and getting older, I found it became much better to avoid getting hit as much as possible, LOL, but frankly it is unavoidable. To this day, my old body can still take significant shots while I grin/bear it. But it has also been taught to me at this point, after so long, how to absorb and give it back, how to use foot movement to get out of the way while still remaining in range to attack simultaneously, etc. But, and I will say this, the most important aspect of contact is to get over the FEAR of getting hit!!! Because, my brothers and sisters, no matter how many years of training one might have, and how many ranks one must possess, there is one truism: you will get hit!! My tai chi/white crane master is 6'1" 165 lbs, but hits like my other master above, using fa jing and extreme internal power. And, my eagle claw master to this day, at age 73, can grab you with his claw and still almost go right through your skin. Sooooo.....while some may find this brutal in today's society, like others have said, one must know first how to take a hit so one is not distracted mentally from saving your own life!!

Some excellent points, and I also think an undercurrent in your post is that everyone's experience will be different. Example: much of what I've read here seems to assume the MA student'(s) never been in a real fight. If you want to know what it feels like to hit or be hit, a training hall is still only a simulation, no matter how hard the training.

So what of the new student who has been in many fights before they even sign up? Or been jumped by multiple bad guys? They certainly have experience taking and dishing out hits.

Another question I keep asking as I read is, what does contact mean? Only hitting? Because I had a sifu at one time who in his 70s would take you down with a single block. He was threatened one time by two punks who thought to rob him (in street clothes, with his coke bottle glasses and slight paunch, he just looks like a little old man--to some). The first guy reached or punched, or whatever he was trying to do, Sifu used a hard cross block that literally took him off his feet. The second guy ran away, Sifu determined they didn't want to fight anymore, and he walked away. BTW, he still says he's never been in a fight.

Anyway, I don't have the answers for what everyone else should do, but maybe we all have different questions to ask ourselves in seeking our own answer.

 

[Blindside]

Some excellent points, and I also think an undercurrent in your post is that everyone's experience will be different. Example: much of what I've read here seems to assume the MA student'(s) never been in a real fight. If you want to know what it feels like to hit or be hit, a training hall is still only a simulation, no matter how hard the training.

So what of the new student who has been in many fights before they even sign up? Or been jumped by multiple bad guys? They certainly have experience taking and dishing out hits.

Just because someone has been hit before doesn't mean they know how to deal with it. If they have, then they should have no mental issues with contact, and they can focus on other material. To me the danger in this sort of no contact training is to those who have never been hit or to those who have developed bad responses to getting hit (like going fetal.) or the like. I am going to design my curriculum based on my weaker students, not my stronger ones.

 

[kidswarrior]

Just because someone has been hit before doesn't mean they know how to deal with it.

So by the same reasoning, just because they've been hit in a controlled environment doesn't mean they'll know how to deal with it outside in an uncontrolled situation.

If they have, then they should have no mental issues with contact, and they can focus on other material.

Not sure what you mean here. If the point is, since they've been hit in a real fight, they should have no problem with getting hit in sparring, then the logic would seem to be: those who know how to take a hit should train with contact (*our* way) because they will have experience and it won't bother them; and those who haven't taken or delivered blows in the real world should train contact because they don't have experience. I don't see how this proves anything.

That is, if we say those with real world experience need to train with contact because of that experience, and those without it should train because they lack that experience, this seems to me a circular argumument, and so actually only an opinion--albeit an opinion just as valid as the next instructor's. But it's not a justification in any way I can see.

To me the danger in this sort of no contact training is to those who have never been hit or to those who have developed bad responses to getting hit (like going fetal.) or the like.

I don't see this contact/no contact dichotomy. I think--and tried to give a relevant example in the previous post--that there are different types and levels of contact, and because someone uses a different method than I do or has a different take on this issue, doesn't mean either one of us is more *right* imo. We just differ in our views on the subject.

I am going to design my curriculum based on my weaker students, not my stronger ones.

And I applaud you for following your principles in setting up your curriculum. But I don't believe that one perspective can be used to dictate how the rest of the world should operate.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So by the same reasoning, just because they've been hit in a controlled environment doesn't mean they'll know how to deal with it outside in an uncontrolled situation.

BINGO!!!

There is a major difference between any type of training in a controlled environment which means a person there to stop things if they go bad, heating and Air-condition, flat floor, etc.

I sparred for years both contact and no contact and I am very happy that I did contact sparring, actually I am very happy I did contact sparing across styles, but when reality struck in a job that I had I discovered that yes the fact that I had been hit while training allowed me to continue and not freeze up in shock at being hit (like I did the first time I was hit in contact sparing). But I can tell you things are VERY different when the guy is coming at you screaming, bleeding and drunk in an ER full of people that are not in anyway expecting it or planning on helping or stopping things than it is sparing full contact in a MA school. IMO a street fighter that has been hit or had to fight is going to far better than many that train in controlled conditions. Now take that street fighter and train him MA and you could possibly end up with a rather good MAist, but there is no guarantee. Could be you don't want to train him, he is dangerous enough already and training him may just make things worse.

But to the point of the OP

Contact is, IMO, best if you ever plan on or expect to actually use what you have trained. If your goal is SD you need contact and I do suggest starting in controlled conditions and I am in no way suggesting going out and starting fights to get better or test your skills. That would be incredibly wrong as well as incredibly dangerous.

 

[TallAdam85]

contact is important not full contact but some contact, when were in school we have shop class. in shop class they show you and teach you how to use tools then give your projects to make so that you can become hands on with your tools. much like this is for martial arts sure you can walk in to a borders book store and pick up a book read a move does not mean u know how to apply the move.
contact is good cause it lets u know how to hit with alot of power as well as learn to pull power when needed as well as how it feels to get hit. would u want a doctor to give u surgery when all they have done is practice but never realy had to make a real cut.

just my 2 cents

 

[MattJ]

So by the same reasoning, just because they've been hit in a controlled environment doesn't mean they'll know how to deal with it outside in an uncontrolled situation.

I suppose that might be true if the person in question only trained contact in class very rarely.

Not sure what you mean here. If the point is, since they've been hit in a real fight, they should have no problem with getting hit in sparring, then the logic would seem to be: those who know how to take a hit should train with contact (*our* way) because they will have experience and it won't bother them; and those who haven't taken or delivered blows in the real world should train contact because they don't have experience. I don't see how this proves anything.

That is completely backwards. The idea is to take someone with little experience with contact and give it to them through progressive deisensitization. This allows them to get used to it over time.

That is, if we say those with real world experience need to train with contact because of that experience, and those without it should train because they lack that experience, this seems to me a circular argumument, and so actually only an opinion--albeit an opinion just as valid as the next instructor's. But it's not a justification in any way I can see.

It is not a circular argument. Your POV only makes sense if class contact is practiced once. Progressive desensitization is a well known phenomenon, applicable to this scenario. It reduces the likeliehood of the "shock" response to the unfamiliar contact experience.

I don't see this contact/no contact dichotomy. I think--and tried to give a relevant example in the previous post--that there are different types and levels of contact, and because someone uses a different method than I do or has a different take on this issue, doesn't mean either one of us is more *right* imo. We just differ in our views on the subject.

I disagree. The mechanics involved in contact striking or grappling are totally different from non-contact versions. Timing and distancing are simply non-existant in no-contact practice - and that is not an opinion.