Considerations before selecting another art to train in

[jobo]

I'm not seeing what this is saying that hasn't already been said. Karate and Taekwondo are both heavily striking arts. Taekwondo focuses more on kicks, Karate more on punches.



Yes, but to what extent does the average boxer use the clinch compared to the average Muay Thai fighter?

Not super-clinch-mcboxer vs. ew-don't-touch-me-Thai-fighter, but your typical boxing match, with typical corners and typical fighters, how much is the clinch used as a weapon, like it is in your typical Muay Thai fight?

well karate isn't a heavy striking art, a lot of karate Styleshave locks and arm bars and head locks included. It's just the karate that you have selected for your matrix doesn't include those elements as it doesn't fit you stereotype

even with out those, i disagree that karate has a bias towards punching and away from kicking, it involves a fair amount of both. I agree that tournament tkd is heavily kick bias. But tkd its self uses a lot of punches. Not of this is reflected in the matrix

 

[Midnight-shadow]

this was the purpose of the matrix, to show that Karate will get you decent at a lot of striking things, but Boxing will get you really good at punching.

But even if we just look at punching you get a huge variety of different techniques. Do you really need them all? What about blocks? I currently know 6 different ways to block a straight punch to the head. Do I need to know 6 ways to block the same attack? Surely 1 way is enough.

 

[skribs]

But even if we just look at punching you get a huge variety of different techniques. Do you really need them all? What about blocks? I currently know 6 different ways to block a straight punch to the head. Do I need to know 6 ways to block the same attack? Surely 1 way is enough.

It's not about the number of techniques you have. Karate has more punches than boxing, significantly more if you add in open-hand strikes.

However, boxing will train punching and only punching. How to punch, how to not get punched, and then drill you over and over and over again on punching. If you practice 3 hours a week in boxing, you practice three hours a week in punching.

If you practice Karate 3 hours a week, will you practice 3 hours a week on punching?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

It's not about the number of techniques you have. Karate has more punches than boxing, significantly more if you add in open-hand strikes.

However, boxing will train punching and only punching. How to punch, how to not get punched, and then drill you over and over and over again on punching. If you practice 3 hours a week in boxing, you practice three hours a week in punching.

If you practice Karate 3 hours a week, will you practice 3 hours a week on punching?

You haven't answered my question.

 

[jobo]

It's not about the number of techniques you have. Karate has more punches than boxing, significantly more if you add in open-hand strikes.

However, boxing will train punching and only punching. How to punch, how to not get punched, and then drill you over and over and over again on punching. If you practice 3 hours a week in boxing, you practice three hours a week in punching.

If you practice Karate 3 hours a week, will you practice 3 hours a week on punching?

where have you got the idea that karate has more punches than boxing does ? And even more so that karate doesn't spend,a lit of time on kicking?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But even if we just look at punching you get a huge variety of different techniques. Do you really need them all? What about blocks? I currently know 6 different ways to block a straight punch to the head. Do I need to know 6 ways to block the same attack? Surely 1 way is enough.

I believe this is part of the attempt to have more options for more situations for self defense. I see the same in NGA’s grappling.

 

[drop bear]

do they? Some boxers clinch a great deal, punch, punch clingy, FM for instance

Yes they do but Muay Thai clinch more.

 

[skribs]

where have you got the idea that karate has more punches than boxing does ? And even more so that karate doesn't spend,a lit of time on kicking?

Karate vs. Boxing: based on the fact that the more traditional Taekwondo lessons I've taken (which are closer to the Karate that the first Taekwondo masters were taught) include a lot more punches than I've seen in boxing, and on the fact that you have open-hand strikes (as I mentioned above).

Karate vs. Taekwondo: Not that Karate doesn't kick, but doesn't to the amount Taekwondo does. This is what I've heard from literally every person in a Karate vs. Taekwondo thread: "do you want to learn punches or kicks?"

 

[jobo]

Karate vs. Boxing: based on the fact that the more traditional Taekwondo lessons I've taken (which are closer to the Karate that the first Taekwondo masters were taught) include a lot more punches than I've seen in boxing, and on the fact that you have open-hand strikes (as I mentioned above).

Karate vs. Taekwondo: Not that Karate doesn't kick, but doesn't to the amount Taekwondo does. This is what I've heard from literally every person in a Karate vs. Taekwondo thread: "do you want to learn punches or kicks?"

well open hand strikes or slapping, isn't by definition a punch.
though you can also slap in boxing, its just not very effective.

there are only a limited number of ways you can punch someone, after that its just variations on a theme.
so. in boxing you have straight punches, jab and cross. You have hooked punches, coming from the side or over the top and you have upper cuts. So that's either 3or 5 depending on how you are counting, and of course rabbit punching which is against the rules
please list the many karate punches you say exist that arnt. Covered by this

 

[JR 137]

well open hand strikes or slapping, isn't by definition a punch.
though you can also slap in boxing, its just not very effective.

there are only a limited number of ways you can punch someone, after that its just variations on a theme.
so. in boxing you have straight punches, jab and cross. You have hooked punches, coming from the side or over the top and you have upper cuts. So that's either 3or 5 depending on how you are counting, and of course rabbit punching which is against the rules
please list the many karate punches you say exist that arnt. Covered by this

Backfist. Sorry, I had to be that guy

I agree. Most of the “different” punches are just variations of a few core punches. Just because they have individual names doesn’t mean they’re completely different.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Those categories are Punches, Kicks, Clinch, Stand-Up Grappling, and Groundfighting.

Assume you are talking about street situation and not just sport. Without getting into firearm, you should also include

- elbow (punch?),
- knee (kick?),
- joint lock (stand-up grappling?),
- short cold weapon (dagger, ...),
- long cold weapon (staff, ...),
- throw and dodge flying object (throwing knife, ...),
- ...

There was a famous MA guy who fought against 5 street guys without any problem until those street guys threw rocks at him, and sent him to hospital. In hospital, he told his friends that his MA teacher didn't teach him "how to dodge flying object". Some MA schools let student to dodge tennis balls while staying in a small circle. To be a good baseball pitcher can be helpful if you carry Baoding balls in your hand.

 

[Buka]

• Am I just completely off my rocker?

 

[Buka]

That's a helluva well thought out post, Scribs. As for off your rocker, nah, you just love Martial Arts. And God help all of us in that same boat.

I think whatever art you study, should you study another one, will help you in ways you probably haven't even thought of yet. I think things you learn about anything will help. It might be another school, it might be different people you hook up with outside of a school, it might be something you see, read, hear, whatever - you just grab onto it and work the heck out of it. It all adds up. And it's a pretty cool journey.

Just pack a lunch, it's a loooong journey.

Helluva post, bro.

 

[skribs]

well open hand strikes or slapping, isn't by definition a punch.
though you can also slap in boxing, its just not very effective.

there are only a limited number of ways you can punch someone, after that its just variations on a theme.
so. in boxing you have straight punches, jab and cross. You have hooked punches, coming from the side or over the top and you have upper cuts. So that's either 3or 5 depending on how you are counting, and of course rabbit punching which is against the rules
please list the many karate punches you say exist that arnt. Covered by this

Assume you are talking about street situation and not just sport. Without getting into firearm, you should also include

- elbow (punch?),
- knee (kick?),
- joint lock (stand-up grappling?),
- short cold weapon (dagger, ...),
- long cold weapon (staff, ...),
- throw and dodge flying object (throwing knife, ...),
- ...

Depending on who's defining it. Some people consider a punch to specifically be a closed-fisted strike with the hand, others lump open-hand strikes and elbow strikes into punches, as well as lumping knee strikes into kicks.

Joint locks I'd include in stand-up grappling (hence the Hapkido rating) or in ground-fighting (the BJJ rating). You could of course separate into more categories if you wished. However, the categories came from another thread, so I wasn't trying to invent a wheel, here.

As to weapons, I guess I was referring to unarmed combat. But you're right, weapon defense AND weapon skills could be included, although for a lot of arts that will be much more dependent on the individual school.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's pretty individual. If I had to pick a general rule, either after one year or after feeling reasonably competent a few years in (black belt level in many schools). My second pick is "immediately" - start the two arts together.

Its not uncommon for people to go with your second pick and start two arts together, particularly if your dojo teaches two arts. My first martial arts school taught both Judo and Karate and there were people who signed up for both and started training in both arts at right away.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Its not uncommon for people to go with your second pick and start two arts together, particularly if your dojo teaches two arts. My first martial arts school taught both Judo and Karate and there were people who signed up for both and started training in both arts at right away.

When I started Judo, my instructor started teaching Shotokan Karate about a month later, so I trained both. I've heard a lot of folks talk about how that slows learning, and it probably does, but I enjoyed it and didn't find it particularly confusing. Perhaps because - like you - I was learning them from the same school, so there was less likely to be conflicting information (something that's "wrong" in one art being "right" in another).

 

[PhotonGuy]

When I started Judo, my instructor started teaching Shotokan Karate about a month later, so I trained both. I've heard a lot of folks talk about how that slows learning, and it probably does, but I enjoyed it and didn't find it particularly confusing. Perhaps because - like you - I was learning them from the same school, so there was less likely to be conflicting information (something that's "wrong" in one art being "right" in another).

I can see how starting two arts at the same time can slow learning if both arts are similar, for instance if you train in Karate and Tae Kwon Do simultaneously that might slow learning but not with arts that are radically different. Both Karate and Tae Kwon Do use hand strikes and both Karate and Tae Kwon Do use kicks and so the different way the hand strikes and kicks are done in both arts can cause confusion and slow learning, but Karate which is striking based and Judo which focuses on throws and grappling, since the arts are so different, I don't see how starting those two arts together would slow learning in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can see how starting two arts at the same time can slow learning if both arts are similar, for instance if you train in Karate and Tae Kwon Do simultaneously that might slow learning but not with arts that are radically different. Both Karate and Tae Kwon Do use hand strikes and both Karate and Tae Kwon Do use kicks and so the different way the hand strikes and kicks are done in both arts can cause confusion and slow learning, but Karate which is striking based and Judo which focuses on throws and grappling, since the arts are so different, I don't see how starting those two arts together would slow learning in any way, shape, or form.

If they were taught by people who each only taught their respective arts, I could see conflicts. One instructor telling the new (not previously trained) student, "Never do X - that's the wrong way." Then, the other says, "Make sure you do X, or you'll never get your techniques to work." That'd be confusing to a truly new student (far less so to someone with reasonable experience, who can figure out why one says it's "wrong"). When the instructors understand other arts and explain reasons behind why things are preferred within one style (normally the case when they teach both styles), students don't get so hung up. The confusion of having two instructors giving opposing absolutes is one way to slow a student's progression.

I think even studying two striking arts need not be problematic, if the respective instructors have some familiarity with the other art. I've taught NGA to folks who were also studying another grappling art (what I taught at the time was almost exclusively grappling). When I had some familiarity with what they were training in, I was able to help minimize confusion between them, showing them why the "right" and "wrong" varied between styles.

 

[skribs]

Its not uncommon for people to go with your second pick and start two arts together, particularly if your dojo teaches two arts. My first martial arts school taught both Judo and Karate and there were people who signed up for both and started training in both arts at right away.

My school teaches both Taekwondo and Hapkido. Now, we have 24-25 Taekwondo classes every week and 1 Hapkido class, so I'll let you guess what the focus of the school is. I started Hapkido a few months after Taekwondo, and I didn't find it hard because it was 2 arts, but simply the amount of time. I got more invested in Taekwondo (up from 2-3 classes a week to 4 classes a week) and I wasn't conditioned enough to also do Hapkido, so it dropped by the wayside. When I was conditioned enough, I had started helping out, which meant I was doing 20+ classes a week, and the Hapkido class kind of went on hiatus due to lack of people.

Since Hapkido started back up, I've been going regularly. The only other regulars we have already have their black belt in Taekwondo. Those that tried to do both at the start burned themselves out on one or both.

We have a lot of other students who are mildly interested in Hapkido, especially women who go to our school to learn self defense. However, most people want to get their Black Belt first, so they only have to focus on one art a time.

I can see how starting two arts at the same time can slow learning if both arts are similar, for instance if you train in Karate and Tae Kwon Do simultaneously that might slow learning but not with arts that are radically different. Both Karate and Tae Kwon Do use hand strikes and both Karate and Tae Kwon Do use kicks and so the different way the hand strikes and kicks are done in both arts can cause confusion and slow learning, but Karate which is striking based and Judo which focuses on throws and grappling, since the arts are so different, I don't see how starting those two arts together would slow learning in any way, shape, or form.

There's also time and money invested. Let's say you take classes 2-3 times a week, and you practice at least 3 hours a week on your own. (Let's take Karate and Judo as the 2 arts here). If you're just doing one art, that's 5 hours a week devoted to Karate. If you take Karate and Judo, then you need to go up to 10 hours a week of practice to become just as competent in both of them. If there are any conflicts between the style (i.e. stances, footwork, how you hold your hands) it can take more to train yourself for each style.

Even within a style you can have differences. There's a HUGE difference in how we teach our demonstration team vs. our sparring club. For the demonstration we want deep stances, we want the techniques held long enough for the audience to see them, beautiful extension on the kicks, and pristine technique above everything else. For sparring we want shallower stances for more speed, closer kicks that focus more on speed and contact than on strength and beauty, and hands held up to protect the head instead of tight at our side for the best looking form. We had a girl in both classes and she was very good at both, but she did have to be reminded "your kicks don't need to be beautiful in sparring, they just have to hit" or the opposite in the other class.

Going back to the time investment, if you take 5 hours a week for karate, but you only have 8 hours total you could devote to martial arts, if you add in Judo you're either going to suffer at Judo because you only get 3 hours in it, or you're going to suffer in both if you cut down the time invested in both to 4 hours. This is an arbitrary number, but the point is that there is a finite amount of time per week, and people might not be able to train in two.

There's also the financial aspect of taking two arts, sometimes it's easier to add one activity at a time. There's also conditioning - can your body handle practicing that much each week?

Now, if you're in good shape and have tons of spare time, then sure. Take them both. But sometimes that's not an option off the bat.

 

[jobo]

My school teaches both Taekwondo and Hapkido. Now, we have 24-25 Taekwondo classes every week and 1 Hapkido class, so I'll let you guess what the focus of the school is. I started Hapkido a few months after Taekwondo, and I didn't find it hard because it was 2 arts, but simply the amount of time. I got more invested in Taekwondo (up from 2-3 classes a week to 4 classes a week) and I wasn't conditioned enough to also do Hapkido, so it dropped by the wayside. When I was conditioned enough, I had started helping out, which meant I was doing 20+ classes a week, and the Hapkido class kind of went on hiatus due to lack of people.

Since Hapkido started back up, I've been going regularly. The only other regulars we have already have their black belt in Taekwondo. Those that tried to do both at the start burned themselves out on one or both.

We have a lot of other students who are mildly interested in Hapkido, especially women who go to our school to learn self defense. However, most people want to get their Black Belt first, so they only have to focus on one art a time.



There's also time and money invested. Let's say you take classes 2-3 times a week, and you practice at least 3 hours a week on your own. (Let's take Karate and Judo as the 2 arts here). If you're just doing one art, that's 5 hours a week devoted to Karate. If you take Karate and Judo, then you need to go up to 10 hours a week of practice to become just as competent in both of them. If there are any conflicts between the style (i.e. stances, footwork, how you hold your hands) it can take more to train yourself for each style.

Even within a style you can have differences. There's a HUGE difference in how we teach our demonstration team vs. our sparring club. For the demonstration we want deep stances, we want the techniques held long enough for the audience to see them, beautiful extension on the kicks, and pristine technique above everything else. For sparring we want shallower stances for more speed, closer kicks that focus more on speed and contact than on strength and beauty, and hands held up to protect the head instead of tight at our side for the best looking form. We had a girl in both classes and she was very good at both, but she did have to be reminded "your kicks don't need to be beautiful in sparring, they just have to hit" or the opposite in the other class.

Going back to the time investment, if you take 5 hours a week for karate, but you only have 8 hours total you could devote to martial arts, if you add in Judo you're either going to suffer at Judo because you only get 3 hours in it, or you're going to suffer in both if you cut down the time invested in both to 4 hours. This is an arbitrary number, but the point is that there is a finite amount of time per week, and people might not be able to train in two.

There's also the financial aspect of taking two arts, sometimes it's easier to add one activity at a time. There's also conditioning - can your body handle practicing that much each week?

Now, if you're in good shape and have tons of spare time, then sure. Take them both. But sometimes that's not an option off the bat.

your basing the above on a number of assumptions that may or may not have truth in them.

two classes a week is more than enough to make good progress in an art, one is sufficient if you do a bit of home practise. The law of diminishing returns applies, doing double the number of classes doesn't mean twice the progress, it may even slow things down if you over load on instruction, some times doing less is the best way to make progress

you need some time away to away to allow the bio changes to take place. You certainly need balance in your life other hobbies time on relationship and friendships, which will be neglected if you are doing excessive training on ma.

if , for instance you do two arts two classes each and a bit of home practise you will make good progress at each, if you do four classes at one art, you may not make much quicker progress that you would doing only the two