Confessions of a security guy

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Let me also, for the record, state the following.

Most customers, i.e. business owners, are not psychopaths. At least not from the beginning. I would say that most of them are regular people who know nothing about security procedure, laws, risk management etc., and who for this very reason hire an authorized security company because they've gotten the impression that those guys are professionals who know what they're doing. I also believe that, at least deep down, most customers believe that if the were to make a suggestion in the manner of "I have a problem, and I was thinking that maybe we could solve it like this", then of course, said security company would also object to said solution should it prove to be illegal or otherwise inadvisable.

But that's now how things play out in real life.

In reality, most companies will tell the client that "sure! If you want it that way, then you'll get it that way!" And this is no different than spoiling children - sooner or later you will have created a monster. It's happened more than a few times that we've stopped working with businesses for the simple fact that we were unable to guarantee the safety of the people we apprehended. Also, you'll hear some customers telling you whenever you've brought someone in that "ok, we'll keep an eye on that guy until the police arrive, you get your derriere back out there now and do what we're paying you to do". This is stupid as well as highly illegal, in that when you've apprehended someone, you're legally responsible for that person until you've handed them over to the police. The last customer who wanted things done this way even proceeded to call up my section leader (with my phone, no less) and tell him that he refused to pay for the work I was doing that day. Thankfully, we let him loose after that.

 

[Transk53]

The good cops know that we serve an important function, and thankfully they're still in the majority.

However, there is a kind of mentality here among not just police, but the entire public administration that I believe (note - I believe) isn't that much of a problem in the States - that is, the important thing isn't to do the right thing, but rather to avoid doing the wrong thing. This can have some rather bizarre consequences at times.

Don't know about the public administration system in the Sates, but avoiding doing the wrong isn't indicative of one country. I have, and have had bizarre consequences, that's just life, not bound by any given circumstances, or system.

To me avoidance is a sticky wicket, which translates across many a thing. Seems to me the crux of you're issues is where you live and work perhaps.

 

[Transk53]

Let me also, for the record, state the following.

Most customers, i.e. business owners, are not psychopaths. At least not from the beginning. I would say that most of them are regular people who know nothing about security procedure, laws, risk management etc., and who for this very reason hire an authorized security company because they've gotten the impression that those guys are professionals who know what they're doing. I also believe that, at least deep down, most customers believe that if the were to make a suggestion in the manner of "I have a problem, and I was thinking that maybe we could solve it like this", then of course, said security company would also object to said solution should it prove to be illegal or otherwise inadvisable.

But that's now how things play out in real life.

In reality, most companies will tell the client that "sure! If you want it that way, then you'll get it that way!" And this is no different than spoiling children - sooner or later you will have created a monster. It's happened more than a few times that we've stopped working with businesses for the simple fact that we were unable to guarantee the safety of the people we apprehended. Also, you'll hear some customers telling you whenever you've brought someone in that "ok, we'll keep an eye on that guy until the police arrive, you get your derriere back out there now and do what we're paying you to do". This is stupid as well as highly illegal, in that when you've apprehended someone, you're legally responsible for that person until you've handed them over to the police. The last customer who wanted things done this way even proceeded to call up my section leader (with my phone, no less) and tell him that he refused to pay for the work I was doing that day. Thankfully, we let him loose after that.

Blimey, now this thread has really lost me. Are you talking about customers being handled with over the top, or unnecessary force I guess I should put it??

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Blimey, now this thread has really lost me. Are you talking about customers being handled with over the top, or unnecessary force I guess I should put it??

When I say "customers" or "clients", I'm referring to the people who employ us.

Most customers, i.e. business owners

 

[Tez3]

That's exactly what I was thinking about you! What I write here is, in your opinion, morally reprehensible, whereas the racism directed towards myself is so insignificant that you find it appropriate to belittle it. So who's the one really differentiating between people here? That's intellectual dishonesty, strike #1.

'Intellectual dishonesty', that doesn't mean what you think it does. I am telling you how you come across in your posts, I'm not arguing with you or presenting any case other than my opinion which is that your post are all about you and your difficulties with people.

Now you're ignoring the fact that I usually only have this problem with newly employed millennials. That's strike #2 for intellectual dishonesty.

Nope, I don't care who you have problems with, if you are having problems with that many people look at what is the cause, look honestly because here you are showing a distinct prejudice against one particular group.

Strawman. Strike #3 for intellectual dishonesty,

Not, that doesn't mean what you think it does either. I'm not arguing with you or presently a fact based case, this is my opinion, you may disagree, which is fine but my opinion is not an argument, it is an honest opinion. If I were dishonest I would sugarcoat my words and say everything is fine.

I know what the laws say, and a big chunk of the trouble I get into comes from the police and/or staff being unfamiliar with said laws. But sure, that's my fault.
(You'll never hear me complaining about criminals being unfamiliar with or not caring about said laws though, that's part of the game)

So, you know more about the laws than your police force? why aren't you a police officer or lawyer?

Strawman again, strike #4 for intellectual dishonesty.

Nope still not correct. As I said you are picking up words and throwing them around like you think you know what they mean. In my opinion you are playing the victim, if you aren't look at your writing to see where this impression comes from.

 

[Tez3]

Let me also, for the record, state the following.

Most customers, i.e. business owners, are not psychopaths. At least not from the beginning. I would say that most of them are regular people who know nothing about security procedure, laws, risk management etc., and who for this very reason hire an authorized security company because they've gotten the impression that those guys are professionals who know what they're doing. I also believe that, at least deep down, most customers believe that if the were to make a suggestion in the manner of "I have a problem, and I was thinking that maybe we could solve it like this", then of course, said security company would also object to said solution should it prove to be illegal or otherwise inadvisable.

But that's now how things play out in real life.

In reality, most companies will tell the client that "sure! If you want it that way, then you'll get it that way!" And this is no different than spoiling children - sooner or later you will have created a monster. It's happened more than a few times that we've stopped working with businesses for the simple fact that we were unable to guarantee the safety of the people we apprehended. Also, you'll hear some customers telling you whenever you've brought someone in that "ok, we'll keep an eye on that guy until the police arrive, you get your derriere back out there now and do what we're paying you to do". This is stupid as well as highly illegal, in that when you've apprehended someone, you're legally responsible for that person until you've handed them over to the police. The last customer who wanted things done this way even proceeded to call up my section leader (with my phone, no less) and tell him that he refused to pay for the work I was doing that day. Thankfully, we let him loose after that.

In the UK a security guard has no more legal powers than any other non police officer ( and certain other official bodies) so anyone can look after someone who has been apprehended. There is no legal need for someone who has detained the suspect to hand them over to the police, anyone can do it. We'd expect the security guard to be reachable and there is possible for statements etc. Shop staff here do not indulge in behaviour that makes it dangerous for a suspect to be detained, the police must be called immediately and they would be quite happy to arrest staff if the suspect is assaulted or harmed. I know of nowhere where these things aren't done properly, this isn't a moral thing it's just far too much trouble and cause huge problems if procedures aren't carried out correctly. No one wants a shop lifter let off which is what will happen if the procedures aren't adhered to.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

'Intellectual dishonesty', that doesn't mean what you think it does.

Intellectual honesty - Wikipedia

"Intentionally committed fallacies in debates and reasoning are called intellectual dishonesty."

This is exactly what you're doing, you're cherrypicking the bits and pieces from my posts that you think confirms your bias about me, whilst conveniently ignoring everything I say which is incompatible with the point you're trying to make. Locally, that's referred to as "reading my posts like the devil reads the bible".

I'm not arguing with you or presenting any case other than my opinion which is that your post are all about you and your difficulties with people.

Yeah, and that's a strawman, which is intellectually dishonest.

look honestly because here you are showing a distinct prejudice against one particular group.

No, I'm not. This just goes to show how you conveniently ignore everything I've written that contradicts your thesis.

So, you know more about the laws than your police force? why aren't you a police officer or lawyer?

I've written about this before in this very thread. And as long as lay judges are employed, I don't want anything to do with working as either a lawyer or a prosecutor.

As I said you are picking up words and throwing them around like you think you know what they mean.

Now you're accusing me of the same thing you're doing.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In the UK a security guard has no more legal powers than any other non police officer ( and certain other official bodies) so anyone can look after someone who has been apprehended.

Yeah, I figured someone might say that, which is why I wrote what I did in the first post of this thread. You wouldn't have needed to write this, and I wouldn't have needed to respond to it, had you simply read that post and kept it in mind. You didn't, all in accordance with your pattern of ignoring the things I write which doesn't fit your agenda.

Shop staff here do not indulge in behaviour that makes it dangerous for a suspect to be detained,

Congratulations. Really.

No one wants a shop lifter let off which is what will happen if the procedures aren't adhered to.

That's not true where I'm at. The south side police have even instigated a project where they're actively encouraging staff and security to confront potential thieves even before they've passed the point of last possible sale. They claim it's safer and helps them with their understaffing problems. Like I said, you wouldn't believe the kind of BS they put out sometimes.

 

[Tez3]

Intellectual honesty - Wikipedia

"Intentionally committed fallacies in debates and reasoning are called intellectual dishonesty."

This is exactly what you're doing, you're cherrypicking the bits and pieces from my posts that you think confirms your bias about me, whilst conveniently ignoring everything I say which is incompatible with the point you're trying to make. Locally, that's referred to as "reading my posts like the devil reads the bible".



Yeah, and that's a strawman, which is intellectually dishonest.




No, I'm not. This just goes to show how you conveniently ignore everything I've written that contradicts your thesis.




I've written about this before in this very thread. And as long as lay judges are employed, I don't want anything to do with working as either a lawyer or a prosecutor.




Now you're accusing me of the same thing you're doing.

No, I am not debating with you. An opinion cannot be a fallacy, it can be disagreed with, laughed at, agreed with, ignored but it's an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
to have a 'bias' against you would mean I actually think what you write is valid, I don't, in my opinion you are playing the victim and want confirmation form other posters. You don't get it from me so you throw words around like a tantrum.
You are obviously miffed because I don't address all your words, why would I? I am addressing the words which pinpoint your attitude towards people, including us. I don't have a 'thesis' , I gave an opinion. If you don't like it, ignore it. Keep posting up and you are inviting opinions.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, I figured someone might say that, which is why I wrote what I did in the first post of this thread. You wouldn't have needed to write this, and I wouldn't have needed to respond to it, had you simply read that post and kept it in mind. You didn't, all in accordance with your pattern of ignoring the things I write which doesn't fit your agenda.

I assume it didn't occur to you that might be for the benefit of other posters who are not from the UK? MT is about sharing information. You are showing once again that you think everything is about you, why would you need to respond?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

No, I am not debating with you. An opinion cannot be a fallacy,

You're making statements about what I'm trying to accomplish with my posts in this thread which flat-out aren't true. That goes beyond the realm of opinions and into outright dishonesty.

in my opinion you are playing the victim and want confirmation form other posters.

In other words, you've created a false hypothesis for yourself and now you're looking for ways to support it. That is not what I'm doing and that is not my goal, stating that it is is an outright lie.

I am addressing the words which pinpoint your attitude towards people, including us.

So your belittling of the racism directed towards myself doesn't say anything about your attitude towards me? Right.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I assume it didn't occur to you that might be for the benefit of other posters who are not from the UK? MT is about sharing information.

Share information is exactly what I did in said post, which you chose to ignore. That is your problem, don't blame me for it.

You are showing once again that you think everything is about you, why would you need to respond?

I went out of my way to tell people that I was not working within a UK or US type legal framework. You ignored it. Hence, apparently everything is about YOU.

 

[Tez3]

You're making statements about what I'm trying to accomplish with my posts in this thread which flat-out aren't true. That goes beyond the realm of opinions and into outright dishonesty.

I asked you why you were posting and you haven't answered. If the purpose of your posting is supposed to be obvious you have failed in your objective, all we see is a lot of racist comments and 'poor me' posting.

 

[Tez3]

I went out of my way to tell people that I was not working within a UK or US type legal framework. You ignored it. Hence, apparently everything is about YOU.

You don't get this do you? I wasn't talking to you, you posted up some information, I posted up some as well, they would compliment each other for people perhaps like Americans who have no knowledge of either of our systems, hopefully then an American and/or an Australian with knowledge would post up what they do and then we'd all be a little more knowledgeable, we would be able to converse about our respective systems, how we work, what we think etc. It would be a conversation which is common on MT, it's how human contact flows.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I asked you why you were posting and you haven't answered. If the purpose of your posting is supposed to be obvious you have failed in your objective, all we see is a lot of racist comments and 'poor me' posting.

Yeah, because you're being intellectually dishonest and conveniently ignoring stuff that I write.

The possibility that I'm simply venting myself out after more than a few strange and unexpected occurrences, has apparently never been considered. There are no words for that in macho lingo, it seems.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

You don't get this do you? I wasn't talking to you, you posted up some information, I posted up some as well, they would compliment each other for people perhaps like Americans who have no knowledge of either of our systems, hopefully then an American and/or an Australian with knowledge would post up what they do and then we'd all be a little more knowledgeable, we would be able to converse about our respective systems, how we work, what we think etc. It would be a conversation which is common on MT, it's how human contact flows.

I will admit that wasn't what I had in mind when I started this thread, mainly because it's a subject matter I'm not all that familiar with. Having said that, I have no problems with people from different areas sharing experiences in this thread, provided that it's done without the inherent assumption that what goes for one area always applies to everywhere else as well. Sadly, there are countless examples of this within this very thread. Once more - I have NO PROBLEM with people putting in their experiences from elsewhere. Just keep in mind that it's not always where everyone else is coming from.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, because you're being intellectually dishonest and conveniently ignoring stuff that I write.

No, I'm being unintellectually amused by your whatever you call 'venting', it's not, it's just you being nasty about people, racist about others and whinging.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

No, I'm being unintellectually amused by your whatever you call 'venting', it's not, it's just you being nasty about people, racist about others and whinging.

No, again, it's because you ignore the bits I've written that don't fit in with your agenda. Confessions of a security guy

 

[Tez3]

provided that it's done without the inherent assumption that what goes for one area always applies to everywhere else as well.

Well now that somewhat 'intellectually dishonest' isn't it, I said explained quite plainly without any assumption that it was the same in any country how we did things in the UK yet you had a hissy fit at me, tut tut dear boy.

 

[Tez3]

No, again, it's because you ignore the bits I've written that don't fit in with your agenda. Confessions of a security guy

I don't have an 'agenda', all my impressions of you and how you think are taken from reading everything you have written.