Components of The Art

[King]

True, it can take a very high level of technical proficiency, but have your really created anything by doing that? Have you pushed the boundaries of your medium by copying what has already been done? As far as combatives are concerned, hasn't it already been done many times over?

It may not be original, but it's still art. Kids in school are shown these things as example - for some students it becomes a goal to look forward to. Of course in the beginning they immitate these styles to understand it. Then they start using these styles to create their own pieces of art.

In a combative sense you have your punches, kicks, throws and holds with different names but share the same principles. But even if two students may train in the same styles the results will be different. In essence the martial artist uses these moves to define themselves in their art.

I agree that it's been done many many times over. But I still remember a time when there was only Karate, Judo and TKD. Then other martial arts became exposed as popularity soared. Now we have things like MMAs and military type combat system which evolved from moves borrowed from different styles. So I see a sort of evolution that is pulling away from traditional term martial art into a combat system.

Banking off my master's perspective the reason a martial art was created is to preserve their culture and way of life. Like how the Samurai wanted to hold onto their budo so they gave up their swords and created Aikido. Same reason why my master has dedicated his entire life promoting Thai culture through Muay Thai. Many martial arts were created to teach future generations about their culture and why a combat system was used in the past.

I say a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, a throw is a throw and a hold is a hold no matter what pretty name you call it. But if you have people there to appreciate it, those people will call it art.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

It may not be original, but it's still art. Kids in school are shown these things as example - for some students it becomes a goal to look forward to. Of course in the beginning they immitate these styles to understand it. Then they start using these styles to create their own pieces of art.

In a combative sense you have your punches, kicks, throws and holds with different names but share the same principles. But even if two students may train in the same styles the results will be different. In essence the martial artist uses these moves to define themselves in their art.

I agree that it's been done many many times over. But I still remember a time when there was only Karate, Judo and TKD. Then other martial arts became exposed as popularity soared. Now we have things like MMAs and military type combat system which evolved from moves borrowed from different styles. So I see a sort of evolution that is pulling away from traditional term martial art into a combat system.

Banking off my master's perspective the reason a martial art was created is to preserve their culture and way of life. Like how the Samurai wanted to hold onto their budo so they gave up their swords and created Aikido. Same reason why my master has dedicated his entire life promoting Thai culture through Muay Thai. Many martial arts were created to teach future generations about their culture and why a combat system was used in the past.

I say a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, a throw is a throw and a hold is a hold no matter what pretty name you call it. But if you have people there to appreciate it, those people will call it art.

First of all, I'll have to disagree with you that the copied painting was art. A wonderful of technical prowess and a tremendous display of mimicry, but not art. Art would be the original painted by Monet. To say that the copies were art as well, would lessen the intrinsic value of what was copied.

On your second point, I wholeheartedly agree with you. No two people do anything exactly the same way. Still, that does not elevate any activity to an art.

Your third point leads me to believe that you mean the traditional styles are an art form because they are old. If that's the case, I'll have to disagree, but I'll leave it alone since I'm not sure if that is what you were trying to say.

You last point is a very good one. But I don't think preserving a combative style as reference to a culture raises the the practitioner to the level of an artist. Once again, it's been done before, and to preserve something makes me think it is being held in stasis. And I know Muay Thai is not stagnant, but a very vibrant and alive style. Also to make a culture known, it's good to share the crafts from it.

Remember, the artists of the world may inspire us to new heights, but it's the craftsmen of the wold that keep it working.

Jeff

 

[Elayna]

Hey peeps,

I was wondering what you guys thought about the different parts of my post, besides just the meaning of art? I hope that by not being able to describe the meaning of "the art" completly it hasn't destracted from what the rest of the post said.
I also want to say, that I understand that "the art" will mean something different to everyone. And, that maybe the only way to close the gap between "factions" or different points of view would be to finally agree on a description of the art. But is this possible?
I mean to me its like agreeing on a one unified religon. May be possible, but highly unlikley.
So I think that we need to concentrate on the things that we can agree on. Make those better, and then maybe the defintion of the art will come. Just a thought. *shrug*.

So if anyone has any ideas please feel free. I posted a few in my original thread.Respect and Honor. Love and Passion. These are all things that Im pretty sure we can all agree upon the meaning. True they may not have much to do with the combative part of Martial Arts. Especially for those who think martial arts is only combative. I still feel that it is something to take into consideration.
Really think on and discuss.
Having an open mind is a good thing. That is how our great leaders, scientist and anyone who has contributed to the evolution of the human race has done anything. With having an open mind, thinking beyond the norm and trying something new and unheard of. Im not saying to change the way you think just because. But I am at least asking you to give it a chance. To explore, and just to see. If its not for you then thats fine.
Free will, a god given right to all

Anyhoo....just putting some stuff out there for consideration.
Have an awesome night all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Mind being our thoughts, ideas and so on.

This I have no problem with, but it should probably be expanded

Body being our physical selves. Our strength, reflexes and so on.

This I agree with

Heart being our emotions, concious, morals and so on.

This I have a problem with this is the way it is presented and defined.

I do not have time to go into a long explanation but to me it seems that this would apply more to an art that could be considered a 'do' (aikido) as opposed to one that could be considered a 'jitsu' (aikijitsu) to put it in Japanese terms

As for Chinese martial arts, same thing, I do not see this applying to something like Sanda/Sanshou. But, although I would not apply it myself, you could apply it to some of the internal styles in CMA depending on the actual focus of the class.

 

[Elayna]

Xue,

Umm...if you could describe what you are meaning a little more I would appreciate it. I had a bit of trouble understanding what you were talking about. I am familiar with a few of the arts you mentioned, but the later ones Im not so familiar with. I would really appreciate you explaining a bit more.
Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue,

Umm...if you could describe what you are meaning a little more I would appreciate it. I had a bit of trouble understanding what you were talking about. I am familiar with a few of the arts you mentioned, but the later ones Im not so familiar with. I would really appreciate you explaining a bit more.
Thanks

Once again short on time, but

Sanda/Sanshou

Internal Chinese Martial arts - Tai Chi, Bagua, Xingyi, Yiquan

Sanshou/Sanda
There are 3 version of this: Military, Police and Sport
http://www.answers.com/topic/san-shou

Tai Chi (Officially recognized styles by the PRC: Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun, Zhaobao)
http://www.answers.com/Tai%20Chi%20Chuan

Xingyiquan (sometimes classified as internal/external - I agree with this classification)
http://www.answers.com/topic/xingyiquan

Baguazhang
http://www.answers.com/topic/baguazhang

Yiquan
http://www.answers.com/topic/yiquan

Although I said some might apply it, it is not applied that way by me. It sounds too much like spirituality in Martial arts issue and if you check around MT you will see my opinion on that. Suffice to say I think that is responsible for ruining many martial arts today. Particularly Tai Chi, especially Yang Style Tai Chi

 

[Elayna]

Xue,

Thank you for taking the time to post all those links, I really appreciate it.But apparently we have different views on spirituality in the martial arts.I’m really sorry for any bad experiences you have had in this department.I’m not going to try and change your mind or anything like that. You probably have good reason for feeling the way you do.I just feel that there is more to martial arts then meets the eye. In my heart and my mind I feel that there is something spiritual about martial arts.

To everyone and no one…..

Xues post has made me think about the replies to my threads and the replies to others threads.
I just want to say first, that what I say is based on the feeling I have in my heart. Not based on any science or any “logic” so to speak. I know in my heart and in my “gut” that there is more to martial arts then just the building of the body.
I look out into this world and see something more awful then the years past. True we have been fighting against each other since the start of time, but not in the same way. 30 years ago race was the biggest issue we had to deal with. Well race in this day and age is a very small issue compared to what we are dealing with now. I mean now you can’t even like a different color or something simple like that without worrying who’s going to call you a name or want to kill you.
When did this world crave death do much? We have gone from being people of imagination and wondering what else is out there to being cold hard cynics.
I don’t see many people these days that play like children and enjoy life. What happened to simple courtesies? Instead people see being rude to others and saying well if you don’t like it shove it up your butt as a sign of strength. What the heck you know. T
his is not right, should never have been right and it needs to stop.

Of course what has this to do with martial arts. Well martial arts has always been a very big thing in cultures. Even in the ancient villages, and some current ones, “martial arts” is something learned by children once they can walk. They are taught what we call “martial arts” and also to sit and look at the flowers and see beauty in life.
Well I feel that if we as martial artist change our hearts and our minds to that of what the great masters are trying to tell us, then we will have a domino effect on our culture and society.
Children look up to us. They see us as heroes. But are we really teaching them good things? Are we teaching them to curb their ego and be humble and not crave violence or are we doing the opposite with concentrating on other things?
I see and have experienced many martial artists saying how much they revere both the dead and alive grandmasters of the art. But I don’t see them putting to action the grandmasters words of wisdom. I say actions speak louder then words.

The martial arts code is being forgotten. The martial arts community is becoming more “Hollywood” by the day.The masters have said. Competition is NOT number one. Politics is NOT number one.
To concentrate on family. To connect with Mother Earth or “energy” if you will. I see more medals on teacher’s walls these days then stories of honor. Because according to the great masters of old…medals are not always honor.
I know that a lot of you will disagree with me and that’s fine. I may be crossing the line, but honestly I don’t care. It needs to be said. I’m not trying to change the way you think or the way you feel. Everyone has their own right to that.
I hope that you all understand where I’m coming from and respect my right to feel, say and think what I need too.
All it takes is one person. One person to start a domino effect for good.

I don’t want to save the world. I’m just a child of this world, in pain, that wants to make it better.And believe me, if you have seen and experienced the things I have you would want to too. If not for others, then for your children and for yourself. Even if that means swallowing your pride and stepping up to do the “unpopular” thing.
Look outside the realm of possibility, because only then will you see what is truly possible. Whatever our minds and hearts can imagine is what can happen.The world needs change.
We may not be able to change everything or everyone…but, we can at least help.The time for having our eyes shut is over.
Martial arts should not be about politics, rank, or competing. It should be about connecting with the earth, being honorable, being respectable, and preserving life.Preserving life should be the ultimate goal for every martial artist. Not to seek out glory or medals or anything like that. And we should be thankful we don’t have to fight. We should be sitting in our chairs with our children thanking whatever god we worship that we don’t have to fight. Not, going and seeking it out through competition just to make ourselves feel better. How childish. Its time to grow up…
Sparring amongst each other is one thing, but for medals is wrong. For honor among your peers all it takes is just an unsaid knowing between comrades. That’s all. That’s how they did it in the past. Even today there is still an unsaid knowing between comrades that says “there the ones”. I don’t need to tell my son I’m in charge. He knows. I’ve never told him, but he knows. Its unsaid and understood. A mutual respect. That’s the way it should be between martial artists. To have to show a medal is…childish. It’s like saying. “Look mommy what I got”.
Its time for change. If you don’t believe what I say, then read the poems, journals and books of the masters. Believe them. Do what they say if indeed you revere them.
I’m nothing but a child of this world trying to do the best I can. I may not be popular, I may not be liked, but I feel in my heart I am doing the right thing. And that’s all the counts for me.

Respects to you all

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue,

Thank you for taking the time to post all those links, I really appreciate it.But apparently we have different views on spirituality in the martial arts.I’m really sorry for any bad experiences you have had in this department.I’m not going to try and change your mind or anything like that. You probably have good reason for feeling the way you do.I just feel that there is more to martial arts then meets the eye. In my heart and my mind I feel that there is something spiritual about martial arts.

First, I do feel there is more to martial arts, I do not think we are that far off there. However I am very cautious when it comes to conversations about Spirituality in the martial arts. It has been my experience that most, and I am by no means including you in this, but most that come to martial arts looking for spirituality are expecting the teacher to stop and have spiritual discussions or find big flashing lights that say LOOK HERE, this is the spirituality of it. But in reality such things are first thought of as intrinsic to the art by most well trained teachers and second internal to each student, not external as most feel it should be.

It is this view that is destroying the martial arts. People show up looking for this epiphany, this guiding light, this guru and when they don’t find it they do what they can to change this martial art to what they feel it should be. After that they attempt to change or ignore the historical facts of the martial arts themselves. And most unfortunately, more times than not, they are successful. I have lost 2 good CMA schools to this and it always started in Yang Tai Chi. I will go no further than this here, I have ranted about this numerous times on MT and what most fail to see the word intrinsic.

With that being said I do not, at this point, feel it is what you are doing. But I am very very cautious about such discussions because this is always were they end up. Also before I get pummeled by the Yang style people on MT. Yang style Tai chi is a very good and very effective martial art that takes a long time to become proficient at. But it is when you walk into class and the majority of the class is taken up by a discussion of crystal energy and its effect on Qi or how the evil spirits of the Hawaiian island give off negative energy that it is done, dead, gone and never coming back. My suggestion at this point walk out of the class because it has been my experience at this point your Sifu has lost complete control of the class and or no longer cares about the style as much as he cares about the dollars.

Well it looks like you got me to rant again, and I am trying so hard not to these days. And after all my effort to be a kinder gentler Xue

To everyone and no one…..

Xues post has made me think about the replies to my threads and the replies to others threads.
I just want to say first, that what I say is based on the feeling I have in my heart. Not based on any science or any “logic” so to speak. I know in my heart and in my “gut” that there is more to martial arts then just the building of the body.
I look out into this world and see something more awful then the years past. True we have been fighting against each other since the start of time, but not in the same way. 30 years ago race was the biggest issue we had to deal with. Well race in this day and age is a very small issue compared to what we are dealing with now. I mean now you can’t even like a different color or something simple like that without worrying who’s going to call you a name or want to kill you.
When did this world crave death do much? We have gone from being people of imagination and wondering what else is out there to being cold hard cynics.
I don’t see many people these days that play like children and enjoy life. What happened to simple courtesies? Instead people see being rude to others and saying well if you don’t like it shove it up your butt as a sign of strength. What the heck you know. T
his is not right, should never have been right and it needs to stop.

Of course what has this to do with martial arts. Well martial arts has always been a very big thing in cultures. Even in the ancient villages, and some current ones, “martial arts” is something learned by children once they can walk. They are taught what we call “martial arts” and also to sit and look at the flowers and see beauty in life.
Well I feel that if we as martial artist change our hearts and our minds to that of what the great masters are trying to tell us, then we will have a domino effect on our culture and society.
Children look up to us. They see us as heroes. But are we really teaching them good things? Are we teaching them to curb their ego and be humble and not crave violence or are we doing the opposite with concentrating on other things?
I see and have experienced many martial artists saying how much they revere both the dead and alive grandmasters of the art. But I don’t see them putting to action the grandmasters words of wisdom. I say actions speak louder then words.

The martial arts code is being forgotten. The martial arts community is becoming more “Hollywood” by the day.The masters have said. Competition is NOT number one. Politics is NOT number one.
To concentrate on family. To connect with Mother Earth or “energy” if you will. I see more medals on teacher’s walls these days then stories of honor. Because according to the great masters of old…medals are not always honor.
I know that a lot of you will disagree with me and that’s fine. I may be crossing the line, but honestly I don’t care. It needs to be said. I’m not trying to change the way you think or the way you feel. Everyone has their own right to that.
I hope that you all understand where I’m coming from and respect my right to feel, say and think what I need too.
All it takes is one person. One person to start a domino effect for good.

I don’t want to save the world. I’m just a child of this world, in pain, that wants to make it better.And believe me, if you have seen and experienced the things I have you would want to too. If not for others, then for your children and for yourself. Even if that means swallowing your pride and stepping up to do the “unpopular” thing.
Look outside the realm of possibility, because only then will you see what is truly possible. Whatever our minds and hearts can imagine is what can happen.The world needs change.
We may not be able to change everything or everyone…but, we can at least help.The time for having our eyes shut is over.
Martial arts should not be about politics, rank, or competing. It should be about connecting with the earth, being honorable, being respectable, and preserving life.Preserving life should be the ultimate goal for every martial artist. Not to seek out glory or medals or anything like that. And we should be thankful we don’t have to fight. We should be sitting in our chairs with our children thanking whatever god we worship that we don’t have to fight. Not, going and seeking it out through competition just to make ourselves feel better. How childish. Its time to grow up…
Sparring amongst each other is one thing, but for medals is wrong. For honor among your peers all it takes is just an unsaid knowing between comrades. That’s all. That’s how they did it in the past. Even today there is still an unsaid knowing between comrades that says “there the ones”. I don’t need to tell my son I’m in charge. He knows. I’ve never told him, but he knows. Its unsaid and understood. A mutual respect. That’s the way it should be between martial artists. To have to show a medal is…childish. It’s like saying. “Look mommy what I got”.
Its time for change. If you don’t believe what I say, then read the poems, journals and books of the masters. Believe them. Do what they say if indeed you revere them.
I’m nothing but a child of this world trying to do the best I can. I may not be popular, I may not be liked, but I feel in my heart I am doing the right thing. And that’s all the counts for me.

Respects to you all

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying, but that is not surprising, I was not clear, hopefully my above post helped clear things up a little.

And I would like to add the following.

I do not care about medals nor do I promote fighting, I do not care about ego and I would rather run away than fight if at all possible. Most unfortunately it has not always been possible.

I have also quoted a Bagua master on MT that said “Don’t fight”. Fighting is a very serious thing and that is also what most Martial arts masters want to get across (I am by no means a master, I am rather far from that actually and don’t feel that it is really possible to attain to be honest). And it is this very issue that fighting is a very serious thing that many seem to miss today. It is also missed by many that learning how to fight is actually a big part of martial arts. Neither is a correct view.

I come from very old school martial arts, back in the early 70s, and I remember when there was less animosity between styles and I rather liked it. I do not like the current in fighting that is going on that amounts to the old “My style is better than your style” fight. That too has been going on for years, but it was a much more friendly competition way back in the days of the dinosaurs than it is now.

I also do not like that fact that there are people out there that want to kill me “just cause” they don’t agree with something I say or don’t like me because of some other insignificant reason.

The world has become a very scary place from what it uses to be that is for sure.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Great post Xue Sheng. Can't disagree with anything you said there. I'd just like to add that studying combative arts is no more or no less intrinsically spiritual than any other activity. Pretty much anything you do could be used as a spiritual metaphor. If you choose to use the Martial Arts as your metaphor for spiritual development, more power too you. Then again you could also use Christianity, Taoism, or model railroading as well. If you don't use an activity as a tool for developing your spirituality, it in no way lessens the practitioner, be it Martial Arts or anything else.

There are no hidden spiritual secrets in Combatives. Only in ourselves can we find such a thing.

 

[Elayna]

I agree with some of the things that both Xue and Jeff have stated.
I dont think we are going to find what were looking for, just by walking in a dojo, and asking the teacher....So...where is it? I mean come on.
Nothing in life is free. Definatly not finding that peace you are searching for. You need to work for it. Big time. And you are not going to find it in a crystal. LOL *rolling eyes*(well only if your looking for your reflection. LOL)

I dont think that by moving your body and throwing someone your going to find that peace either. But I do think, that whatever your heart feels and whatever mind set your in will strengthen that throw and show you new things not only about yourself, but about your opponent. Or, it could just stop you up like a clogged drain.
The grandmasters of old never told us not to train. They never told us not to spar or not to hone our skills. But they have told us not to compete for the things many compete for these days. They have told us not to involve ourselves as martial artists in politics and so on.
Training is good. Sparring is good. I honestly dont care if you train in a dojo or not. Training is training. A farmer never went to a dojo to learn to defend is home. But he did it just fine as any soldier...Just differently.
Traing your body, by working. By using it. Thats all that matters in the end. Even the romans with all their muscle and tatics were still defeated.
Even if you look into the history of the battles when the romans controlled england. The brits fought and fought. They didnt have any training, but they had a cause. They had heart. They had passion. They may not have one the big battles, but its the little battles that they won that brings goosebumps. And its those little battles that in the end, gave the future generatioins the courage to stand up yet again.
Thats we need to start seeing, not only in our world, but in martial arts.
We have been told time and time again. Competition..NO. Politics...NO.
These things to some may be impossible to avoid...But there not if we just refuse. If everyone decides to be the big person and refuse. Anything is possible if you want it to be.
For those out there who seek fighting, whether through war, or through competition. Wait till you kill some one and look into their eyes and see that look. I cant describe it for you. But once that happens, you wont want to kill again.
I believe that defending your family is good. Defending the goodness of mandkind is good. But there is huge difference between seeking out fighting and just waiting for it. And from my own personal experience I would rather wait for it, because you never know, it might never come. IF we are so lucky. But when the fight does come to you, then by all means, take it to them and shove it down their throat. But until that day comes...sit with your family and enjoy a peaceful life.
This also applies to competition arts. Sparr in the dojo or in your back yard or something. Sparr for a hot dog. Anyways...I think you all get how I feel on that. And honestly I could say it over and over and those of you who firmly believe the way you do, will not get it. Because apparently it is something no one wants to get. Because, the masters have said it over and over and over and over...but yet....Well....Here we are.
And you know Jeff is right. Anything can be spirtual if you want it to be. But what makes martial arts so much more of a target for that is this. By focusing your mind and your heart with your body and creating that balance, humans can become something much more then we could ever imagine. Something much more then making model railroads and being spirtual. I know some wont believe me, and thats fine. We have seen it in the past, and I tell you, we will see it in the future. If we can just get our heads out of our butts and see the light of day.
A balance, between all 3 is what we should aim for. Dont give up training, but dont give up the passion, the heart and the goal and aim for something greater. Material things will only take you so far. But whats in your heart will take your farther. And when your on your death bed and all you have to look at is medals, youll be wishing you had friends and family around to be there with you. Do you really want to wait that long to see what is really important? <this question is not mean for anyone specific, just a thought>
Anyhooo.....Lets keep thinking, discussing and talking about the "unpopular". I actually really enjoy it. . I know Im wierd. LOL