Combining Wing Chun and Aikido?

[Drasken]

Placed this here since it is talking about two different styles. Didn't know where else to put it.

So I talked with an old training buddy of mine and he said in the few years it's been since we trained last he has been taking instruction from a guy that teaches Wing Chun striking mixed with Aikido. Now at first I wasn't sure about this, but after about an hour of messing around and sparring I must say that the two styles seem to compliment each other nicely.
I was wondering if anyone else has heard of this blending of the two styles before and if anyone had thoughts on it. I was considering learning some more since it was really effective in our sparring session, especially since the quick strikes and simultanious defense set me up for a throw or neutralization no matter what strike I threw. I even picked up a couple things in a relatively short period of time that I used later in a spar with my buddy who trains MMA, and was just as surprised as he was at how well it worked.

Any thoughts on the subject?

 

[mook jong man]

No , no , and absolutely not.

 

[Drasken]

No , no , and absolutely not.

Lol any specifics why? Is it more of a purity of systems thing or not effective in your opinion? Very curious about this topic and honest opinions, meaning hopefully reasons given for said opinions as well if you wouldn't mind expanding on it?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Lol any specifics why? Is it more of a purity of systems thing or not effective in your opinion? Very curious about this topic and honest opinions, meaning hopefully reasons given for said opinions as well if you wouldn't mind expanding on it?

Well, i cant give you 'specifics', but they both have two ideologies that you have to stick to for the arts to be effective (push/pull/using opponents weight and force, and keeping the (centerline?)) which, as far as I can tell at least theoretically oppose each other.

 

[Drasken]

Well, i cant give you 'specifics', but they both have two ideologies that you have to stick to for the arts to be effective (push/pull/using opponents weight and force, and keeping the (centerline?)) which, as far as I can tell at least theoretically oppose each other.

Aikido as I learned it was blending and moving an opponent's balance off of centerline to throw and neutralize the threat. So I see some similarities in the styles, but the philosophy of each style is different you're right. The thing is that when blending the concepts it ends up coming out on the other side as something completely new. It was an incredibly odd concept which is why I decided to ask for more opinions.
I think it is a completely new animal based off of concepts of the two arts as a straight blending probably wouldn't work at all.
Just wanted to see. Some of the stuff I picked up works rather well. But it is also possible that it was misrepresented as something it was not. I saw several Aikido techniques in the exchanges between my old friend and I, and I admit I know very little of Wing Chun other than concepts from reading about it. So it's possible it was something completely different that was presented as something it wasn't.

 

[Cyriacus]

Well, i cant give you 'specifics', but they both have two ideologies that you have to stick to for the arts to be effective (push/pull/using opponents weight and force, and keeping the (centerline?)) which, as far as I can tell at least theoretically oppose each other.

With that being said, might it not be possible to know how to do both?

 

[mook jong man]

Lol any specifics why? Is it more of a purity of systems thing or not effective in your opinion? Very curious about this topic and honest opinions, meaning hopefully reasons given for said opinions as well if you wouldn't mind expanding on it?

The Wing Chun stance is unique to Wing Chun , and as a result of that , the methods of both generating and overcoming force are also unique to Wing Chun.
They are not interchangeable with other methods.
In other words the Wing Chun arm structures are able to generate and withstand force because they are bolstered by the power transmitted from the Wing Chun stance.
Without the correct stance , the angles of the arms are doomed to collapse under heavy pressure from the opponent.

 

[Drasken]

The Wing Chun stance is unique to Wing Chun , and as a result of that , the methods of both generating and overcoming force are also unique to Wing Chun.
They are not interchangeable with other methods.
In other words the Wing Chun arm structures are able to generate and withstand force because they are bolstered by the power transmitted from the Wing Chun stance.
Without the correct stance , the angles of the arms are doomed to collapse under heavy pressure from the opponent.

This unfortunately sounds like shortcomings of Wing Chun. However this statement assumes that Aikido is not flexible enough to adapt to another style's stance, which isn't true. I've pulled off Aikido techniques quite well and comfortably from stances such as Krav Maga's boxing like stance.
I see your point and I'm not arguing as my knowledge of Wing Chun is obviously less than your own. But I've heard of many people using Wing Chun as well as incorperating tools from other styles instead of keeping rigid to the style itself. It is possible this is just talk, but it seems to be the newthought that rigidity to one style is too limiting. So many people try to stay fluid.

I would say this is because of MMA, but it happened when Bruce Lee's books were popular as well.

So yes, I thank you for your advice. I take it to heart and will keep it in mind when looking for more info. And hope to hear more opinions as it seems this topic is highly debated. The truth of it is though that I would plan on learning Wing Chun seperately anyway and come to my own conclusion based on my training with it. And that is IF I decided to look that deeply instead of just abandoning this line of thinking as just pure curiousity and nothing more.

 

[mook jong man]

This unfortunately sounds like shortcomings of Wing Chun. However this statement assumes that Aikido is not flexible enough to adapt to another style's stance, which isn't true. I've pulled off Aikido techniques quite well and comfortably from stances such as Krav Maga's boxing like stance.

It's got nothing to do with short comings of Wing Chun , the Wing Chun techniques are designed to work with the Wing Chun stance , simple as that.

I see your point and I'm not arguing as my knowledge of Wing Chun is obviously less than your own. But I've heard of many people using Wing Chun as well as incorperating tools from other styles instead of keeping rigid to the style itself. It is possible this is just talk, but it seems to be the newthought that rigidity to one style is too limiting. So many people try to stay fluid.

I would say this is because of MMA, but it happened when Bruce Lee's books were popular as well.

They might think they are doing Wing Chun when attempting to incorporate Wing Chun techniques into their own styles.
But all they are doing is a pale imitation , physically it might look the same but it definitely won't feel the same.
That is because they are missing a vital piece of the puzzle , the correct Wing Chun stance.

 

[Drasken]

They might think they are doing Wing Chun when attempting to incorporate Wing Chun techniques into their own styles.
But all they are doing is a pale imitation , physically it might look the same but it definitely won't feel the same.
That is because they are missing a vital piece of the puzzle , the correct Wing Chun stance.

But once again you assume it isn't the other way around. Is it not possible to execute techniques from other styles in a Wing Chun Stance? Or to switch stances during a fight if one style by itself isn't working?

Either way, I do agree that when you use concepts from many styles together you cannot truely call what you are using any of the component styles. It is at that point an eclectic combination and would be essentially a Mixed Martial Art, although not what people think of when the term is used. But it truely would be.

 

[mook jong man]

But once again you assume it isn't the other way around. Is it not possible to execute techniques from other styles in a Wing Chun Stance? Or to switch stances during a fight if one style by itself isn't working?

Either way, I do agree that when you use concepts from many styles together you cannot truely call what you are using any of the component styles. It is at that point an eclectic combination and would be essentially a Mixed Martial Art, although not what people think of when the term is used. But it truely would be.

If other techniques from other styles worked properly from a Wing Chun stance then don't you think we would already be using them in Wing Chun ?

Wing Chun is a close quarters fighting system , and when engaged at close quarters with the opponent it is not a good time to have conflicting reflexes or to mess around with switching stances.

 

[Drasken]

If other techniques from other styles worked properly from a Wing Chun stance then don't you think we would already be using them in Wing Chun ?

Wing Chun is a close quarters fighting system , and when engaged at close quarters with the opponent it is not a good time to have conflicting reflexes or to mess around with switching stances.

Point taken. And I admit once again that you know Wing Chun much better than I do. I know it may not sound like it, but I do value your advice. It only strikes me as slightly odd because you are the only person that practices Wing Chun that I have talked to on this matter that is so strongly against this concept for the reasons given. Most that argue against it do so for stupid reasons that have nothing to do with the techniques of the styles themselves.

Either way, thank you for giving your opinion on this matter. If nothing else, it will aid me in further research and discussions. It will also help me de ide where to go next with my training, as I am deciding on which style to devote my time to learning, now that I'm getting back into the martial arts.

 

[K-man]

There are principles in aikido that fit with all martial arts. Whether you would choose to introduce aikido techniques into WC or whether you use the aikido principles to better understand your WC is up to you. In karate we have our different stances too and I have no trouble in using the aikido principles and the techniques in my training.

As has been said, you don't want a WC hybrid but expanding your understanding by cross training might work fine. It is really a matter of trying a little. Yoshinkan aikido may well have similar principles to WC. :asian:

 

[Dirty Dog]

If other techniques from other styles worked properly from a Wing Chun stance then don't you think we would already be using them in Wing Chun ?

Not necessarily, unless you believe that Wing Chun is the be-all and end-all of Martial Arts and is totally 100% perfect for all situations.
Obviously this is not the case, so it is reasonable to wonder what non-WC techniques might work well for WC practitioners. Or what WC techniques might work well for non-WC practitioners.

 

[mook jong man]

Not necessarily, unless you believe that Wing Chun is the be-all and end-all of Martial Arts and is totally 100% perfect for all situations.
Obviously this is not the case, so it is reasonable to wonder what non-WC techniques might work well for WC practitioners. Or what WC techniques might work well for non-WC practitioners.

I do not believe Wing Chun to be the be-all and end-all of martial arts.
But I do believe that it excels in the range that it was designed for and that is close quarters striking and manipulation of the opponents balance.
There is no doubt that Wing Chun is the descendant of several earlier Kung Fu systems , these earlier systems probably contained some elements of throwing and chi na similar to Aikido.

Wing Chun in it's early phase a few hundred years ago probably contained these components as well.
But in keeping with Wing Chuns minimalist approach and emphasis on efficiency a lot of techniques deemed unessential were discarded by the founders over the years.

This was maybe because they required the use of brute strength , were not practical or violated other important Wing Chun principles.
The Wing Chun we have today is the result of being streamlined and pared down to what works within the framework of Wing Chun.

Now if people want to go around throwing chain punches from a boxing stance with boxing footwork , good luck to them.
But it's not Wing Chun , and it will not work like it does in Wing Chun.

Similarly if they want to try and do Aikido throws on people using the Wing Chun stance , go for it.
But that is not what it was designed for.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

With that being said, might it not be possible to know how to do both?

I'm far less than an expert on this, and someone like mook jong man would be better to answer, or an aikido practitioner, but I think they would be awesome to know how to do both. However, they're distinctly separate, and as I said, oppose each other a bit, so you would have to do one or the other, maybe switch between them, but trying to combine the two into one system, like the instructor appears to have done, wouldn't work in theory. However, if an instructor has found a way to make the two work, and its effective, more power to him. Doubt purists of WC or aikido will be very happy about it, but if it works, it works.

 

[Cyriacus]

I'm far less than an expert on this, and someone like mook jong man would be better to answer, or an aikido practitioner, but I think they would be awesome to know how to do both. However, they're distinctly separate, and as I said, oppose each other a bit, so you would have to do one or the other, maybe switch between them, but trying to combine the two into one system, like the instructor appears to have done, wouldn't work in theory. However, if an instructor has found a way to make the two work, and its effective, more power to him. Doubt purists of WC or aikido will be very happy about it, but if it works, it works.

Ive been meaning to reply again, but i decided against it. Now i will
In my thinking, i was thinking that you could just, you know. Transition from a WC stance to an Aikido stance. It wouldnt be too hard.
But, thats more along the lines of learning both seperately. But, couldnt you learn them at the same time, albeit as seperate things, with a format in which to train them? I mean, learning to use Aikido from WC drills. Less about techniques, more about training methods.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Ive been meaning to reply again, but i decided against it. Now i will
In my thinking, i was thinking that you could just, you know. Transition from a WC stance to an Aikido stance. It wouldnt be too hard.
But, thats more along the lines of learning both seperately. But, couldnt you learn them at the same time, albeit as seperate things, with a format in which to train them? I mean, learning to use Aikido from WC drills. Less about techniques, more about training methods.

Hmm i guess that could work, although it sounded like the instructor was training the techniques together, which IMO wouldnt work. As for transitioning, thats what I meant by switch between them, but still think the techniques from both should be separated when learning them. As I said, if the instructor figured out how to teach them together, and it works, I'm not going to argue with him...that would be like arguing with a painter that blue and red dont make purple.

 

[geezer]

Wing Chun in it's early phase a few hundred years ago probably contained these components as well. But in keeping with Wing Chun's minimalist approach and emphasis on efficiency a lot of techniques deemed unessential were discarded by the founders over the years. This was maybe because they required the use of brute strength, were not practical, or violated other important Wing Chun principles.

The Wing Chun we have today is the result of being streamlined and pared down to what works within the framework of Wing Chun.

This is very well put, Mook. If more chunner's really stopped to think about this, maybe they wouldn't always be trying to add on extra techniques taken from other systems. That always struck me like buying a beautiful sports car and then covering it with cheesy stickers and chrome doo-dads from your corner auto-shop.

On the other hand, I would beg to differ with your statement below implying that WC only works from a WC stance and posture.

Now if people want to go around throwing chain punches from a boxing stance with boxing footwork , good luck to them. But it's not Wing Chun , and it will not work like it does in Wing Chun.

My old Chinese sifu used to claim that WC really came down to a way of moving, ...a way of using your body to exploit your opponent's force and defeat him with maximum efficiency. For this purpose, our stance is ideal ...but not absolutely necessary. He claimed that when you reach the highest levels of proficiency (something I personally can only dream about) you can outwardly assume the appearance of a boxer, karateka, thai boxer, choy lee fut stylist, or whatever, and still apply wing chun.

To prove his point he would physically mimic other styles (something he did quite well) and have us "attack" him. He would respond according to wing chun concepts and effortlessly dissolve our attacks. Afterwards, he would conclude by saying that when you are good enough, you can apply you wing chun in any form, from any position. It just works best as it was designed. That's why we call it a system, not just a style.

Now, getting back to the OP, I'd say that some lineages of WC may share certain concepts with Aikido, although I can't say for sure as I have never trained in that art. I do know that the WC I train is "soft" and "flexible", and it abhorrs crude resistance and crashing force against force, but rather seeks to borrow and use an opponent's force. To me, these sound rather similar to some Aikido precepts.

On the other hand, we are a practical fighting system that favors very compact and efficient movements, we favor straightlines over circles, and release our strikes with great speed and explosive, yet "elastic" force to effectively annihilate our attacker. None of this seems compatible with what little I've seen and heard said of aikido.

Moreover, mastering just one of these arts is a life's work. Studying several arts can be counterproductive. I study WC and Escrima, so yes, I know it's possible to study two or more separate arts, but it can also slow down you progress in each art individually. By contrast, combining different arts is, in my opinion, a huge mistake.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Can I just suggest that if you do combine these a possible name blending both might be......wait for it......WINDO! Funny to me anyway. Hey, the beauty of training is that you can combine whatever you want. If you are asking about the validity then it becomes a matter of opinion and experience.