This is where beginners tend to fight from, no matter how much you tell them to open it, so here is the question. Closed guard can be very effective for setting up sweeps and submissions, if it is actively used and not just wrap the legs and hold on. So what are some useful tips / strategies / set ups from a closed guard that you would pass on to beginners? How do you actually make it a offensive position?
Closed Guard
- Thread starter Andrew Green
- Start date
Eternal Beginner
Brown Belt
I just fought a girl in a tournament this weekend who did precisely that...hung on. Very frustrating.
My tip to beginners on using an open guard is learn to move your hips, don't lie flat on your back and hang on for dear life.
My tip to beginners on using an open guard is learn to move your hips, don't lie flat on your back and hang on for dear life.
rutherford
Master Black Belt
The only way to win by hanging on is if you're in a match that has stand-up rules. If you're not fighting in such a match an you're hanging on, you're losing!
Don't lie flat on your back. Small changes in hip position make a great deal of difference!
Always be looking for a sweep, an arm bar, a shoulder lock - anything! Learn the feel for these openings, through time on the mats and good instruction.
Don't lie flat on your back. Small changes in hip position make a great deal of difference!
Always be looking for a sweep, an arm bar, a shoulder lock - anything! Learn the feel for these openings, through time on the mats and good instruction.
MardiGras Bandit
Green Belt
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 100
- Reaction score
- 6
When I first started I trained with people much larger then me, and definitely fell into the hold on for dear life trap. Partialy because of that I developed a very good closed guard. Now I can catch most people I go against from there.
The best closed guard setups I know are rubber guard and whizzer. Rubber guard is amazing, it is very hard to escape from, especially if a person doesn't know how to deal with it. It is somewhat advanced however, and not great for beginners. I teach new people (I run a college club) whizzer setups (basically an arm wrap) to get triangles and omoplatas. It gives a lot of control and is easy to do, so people just starting have good luck with it and don't get frustrated.
The best closed guard setups I know are rubber guard and whizzer. Rubber guard is amazing, it is very hard to escape from, especially if a person doesn't know how to deal with it. It is somewhat advanced however, and not great for beginners. I teach new people (I run a college club) whizzer setups (basically an arm wrap) to get triangles and omoplatas. It gives a lot of control and is easy to do, so people just starting have good luck with it and don't get frustrated.
Shogun
Master Black Belt
Rubber guard.
Shogun
Master Black Belt
seriously learn to control the head and shift the hips back and forth. seek armlocks. there are 4 basic armlocks you can get from this position. (Kimura, straight armlock, elbow/shoulder lock, omoplata)
rubber guard is great for closed guard. gogoplata, invisible collar, meat hook, etc
rubber guard is great for closed guard. gogoplata, invisible collar, meat hook, etc
OP
- Thread Starter
- #7
good stuff, basically what closed guard comes down to is don't be flat on your back, don't be directly under them, climb your legs up the back and try to force the arms away from the body, and keep moving, out to one side, then out to the other, keep them off balance and defending rather then trying to pass. If you are defending their pass you aren't attacking 
Things like rubber guard are just one approach to accomplishing that.
The closed guard strategy I teach basically works off a few connected techniques that are easy to learn to do, arm bar, triangle, flowersweep and chicken wing. Other stuff gets added, but those are th big ones in terms of learning the basics of what I want them to do when working closed guard.
Things like rubber guard are just one approach to accomplishing that.
The closed guard strategy I teach basically works off a few connected techniques that are easy to learn to do, arm bar, triangle, flowersweep and chicken wing. Other stuff gets added, but those are th big ones in terms of learning the basics of what I want them to do when working closed guard.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
At a training seminar, Rich P. and myself were training partners on Friday. We were working on knife deployment from grappling positions. This particular position was guy on top, you on bottom, and you try to deploy your knife. Your partner gives you a struggle and tries to prevent you from knife deployment.
Anyways, we found some success with the closed guard. From a mount if you can get your hips under him you can move to this position. From an open guard if he is trying to go for your knife or prevent you from going for your knife on your hip, a closed guard helps. You can besically can create distance between your hips and his hands, use your legs to help control his arms/hands, thus freeing your hands to deploy the knife. I'm fairly confident with this tactic because I was able to have some success with Rich giving me trouble; and Rich is 295 lbs. with a very long reach.
I will play with this more in our Combat Researchers Guild, though, and see where it goes.
Paul
Anyways, we found some success with the closed guard. From a mount if you can get your hips under him you can move to this position. From an open guard if he is trying to go for your knife or prevent you from going for your knife on your hip, a closed guard helps. You can besically can create distance between your hips and his hands, use your legs to help control his arms/hands, thus freeing your hands to deploy the knife. I'm fairly confident with this tactic because I was able to have some success with Rich giving me trouble; and Rich is 295 lbs. with a very long reach.
I will play with this more in our Combat Researchers Guild, though, and see where it goes.
Paul
OP
- Thread Starter
- #9
scenario is interesting, and what you are capable of will depend on what your partner is capable off. Bottom of side mount or mount would be dangerous with a skilled guy as you would be getting punched obviously, and not just that reaching down gives him a great opportunity for a chicken wing.
Closed guard would work, get out to the side first (I assume this is what you are doing) and keep him down with your legs, from a underhook go for it. If he reaches back to stop you chicken wing him
Which leads to a interesting idea about bluffing, reach for a non-existant weapon to create a opening for a submission or sweep, anyone considered that in training?
Closed guard would work, get out to the side first (I assume this is what you are doing) and keep him down with your legs, from a underhook go for it. If he reaches back to stop you chicken wing him
Which leads to a interesting idea about bluffing, reach for a non-existant weapon to create a opening for a submission or sweep, anyone considered that in training?
Cruentus
Grandmaster
We grapple a lot, but I am not a MMA buff, so I may not be up on your terminology. Could you briefly explain the closed guard for me so that I know we are talking about the same thing?
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2004
- Messages
- 6,545
- Reaction score
- 61
Your on the bottom fighting against their body weight, and gravity. Your strikes are weaker than theirs, and you cling on to them. This is not an offensive position. Get out from the bottom!
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Andrew Green said:where you got both legs around the guys back
What is the guard position where your knees are pulled up to your chest and closed (so your not hip to hip, as used to create distance)?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #15
Hand Sword said:
All depends, are you looking at it from a sport grappling POV or a MMA / real fight POV.
In sport grappling it can be very offensive, and sometimes you just end up there beyond your control. Sometimes, it can even be the best place for you as Royce demonstrated years ago. Not usually, but sometimes.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2004
- Messages
- 6,545
- Reaction score
- 61
Sorry, I was looking at it from a real fight POV. Froma sport view, I would still think you're at a disadvantage down there, skilled or not, If the one on top is skilled also. (which I would assume in a sporting match).
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Andrew Green said:
Knee's together, ankles still remain towards the outside so you can slip back to guard if he tries to pass, feet can be used to push off on his arms from elbow crease and manipulate his arms.
You may also be thinking competitive fighting rather then fighting. Remember, in the circumstance described I am creating distance and time to pull my knife out from my strong side hip, which can be accomplished before the guard is passed, regardless of the skill of my opponent. That is the whole point. I would love to have someone mount me while I have a knife in my hand....so I can kill them faster.
Besides that, I have seen the knees up guard, for lack of a better term, used successfully in competition. This is a transitionary manuver done by someone who doesn't want to sit in the guard for the entire match; the intention is never to stay in that position, and if the skill of the guy on bottom is there, this can be useful.
Sometimes something that one may think is "no good" in most situations they may be thinking of can be very good in a different context.
Paul
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2004
- Messages
- 6,545
- Reaction score
- 61
I hear ya! I used the guard and submissions stuff at work and in training. From those experiences, It was much tougher to be down there in training (they knew the passing and counters/defenses), than at work. But still felt disadvantaged either way. That's what I was speaking from. For me, I would rather be on top. If using the guard, I would want a reversal to make it offensive.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #20
Tulisan said:
That's it there, so no name. Not a place you'd want to sit. To easy to get passed or leg locked.
For making space I'd go with a different approach personally, but if this works for you then great
Chances are if you have a knife involved the other guy isn't a "skilled" fighter anyways
