Climate Change Discussion/ split from What is the purpose of a Taekwondo form?

[Flying Crane]

I am very intrigued by the wave energy model. Makes a lot of sense. It does ring of trying to tame mother nature which I think cannot fully be accomplished. So there will be some mishaps as we figure out the technology.

There have been plenty of mishaps as we have figured out our current widespread technologies as well, some with pretty disastrous results.

Deep water Horizon
Exxon Valdez
Fukushima
Three Mile Island
Chernobyl
Upper Big Branch Coal Mine explosion in West Virginia

Just a few that come readily to mind. We’ve hardly had a clean history with the technology we’ve been using so far. Mishaps will be part of any technology. Just because something new isn’t flawless right out of the box is no reason to refuse to begin using it while we work to improve it, if it offers better alternative to what we already have.

 

[Buka]

I don't dismiss them at all. Turbines are incredibly efficient where the is ample flat land. Of course that is not the case everywhere. The downside is they take up a very big footprint when you compare the energy generated with water generation. There have been way too many documented stories of wasted millions during the Obama administration and the green energy movement.
I am very intrigued by the wave energy model. Makes a lot of sense. It does ring of trying to tame mother nature which I think cannot fully be accomplished. So there will be some mishaps as we figure out the technology.

Flat land is certainly easier. But not necessary....

Taken from my porch.

 

[dvcochran]

Flat land is certainly easier. But not necessary....

View attachment 21954
Taken from my porch.

Well yea, but they are at the peak of a hill line. What is on each side of the hill?

 

[dvcochran]

There have been plenty of mishaps as we have figured out our current widespread technologies as well, some with pretty disastrous results.

Deep water Horizon
Exxon Valdez
Fukushima
Three Mile Island
Chernobyl
Upper Big Branch Coal Mine explosion in West Virginia

Just a few that come readily to mind. We’ve hardly had a clean history with the technology we’ve been using so far. Mishaps will be part of any technology. Just because something new isn’t flawless right out of the box is no reason to refuse to begin using it while we work to improve it, if it offers better alternative to what we already have.

Curious list. It is ridiculous to make that argument given how much longer oil/coal, nuclear, & hydro have been around.
Germany's Green Energy Disaster: A Cautionary Tale For World Leaders
This link supports my point that this in not just a scientific solution. Runaway socialism and liberalism can be more disastrous than any of than accidents you listed.

 

[dvcochran]

Wave energy conversion technology has nothing to do with taming nature. It just makes use of the kinetic energy of waves. As for waste, we've not had any scarcity if that under any recent administration. The budget is set by Congress, not the President, though the President has some influence on the process.

Ask anyone from New Orleans during hurricane Katrina. There are some amazing articles that logically document that it was "impossible" for the levy's to fail. The old civil engineering rule of calculating the maximum then multiplying by three wasn't even close to the actual calculated energies during the hurricane. We are and will continue to get smarter but I guess I am too cynical to think we can beat on our chest and tame mother nature. That said, I am excited to see where wind and wave and nuclear energy go. Although I think seeing 100 windmills in close proximity ruins the landscape.

 

[Flying Crane]

Curious list. It is ridiculous to make that argument given how much longer oil/coal, nuclear, & hydro have been around.
Germany's Green Energy Disaster: A Cautionary Tale For World Leaders
This link supports my point that this in not just a scientific solution. Runaway socialism and liberalism can be more disastrous than any of than accidents you listed.

Are you still trying to make the issue about Socialism? And Liberalism? That tired old distraction?

Here is a clue: climate change doesn’t give a rat’s *** about the specter of Socialism. Anthropogenic climate change is real. It knows no political distinctions.

And let’s see...you don’t actually need to worry about the Socialism issue because nobody is actually suggesting that the US needs to become a Socialist State in order to deal with it. I guess if Liberalism give you nightmares, well we are here to stay so for you it may be a real problem.

But then again, you know that Socialism isn’t a problem. Because I already told you this in an earlier post.

So maybe you can actually discuss the issue and stop throwing out weak distractions.

Now for my list of energy disasters...I was merely pointing out that our current energy technology comes with plenty of very very costly and damaging problems and catastrophes, so arguing that we cannot implement renewable energy resources on the basis that they are as yet imperfect, is a very flawed argument.

But I think you actually understand this already and simply choose to attempt distractions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Curious list. It is ridiculous to make that argument given how much longer oil/coal, nuclear, & hydro have been around.
Germany's Green Energy Disaster: A Cautionary Tale For World Leaders
This link supports my point that this in not just a scientific solution. Runaway socialism and liberalism can be more disastrous than any of than accidents you listed.

Two problems in that post, DV.

1. That’s not a disaster caused by green technology. It could be called (and perhaps properly) an economic disaster, but that seem to be overstating the issue from what little I know.
2. Your second sentence is a flagrant statement of position without any support given, and a false comparison, at best.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ask anyone from New Orleans during hurricane Katrina. There are some amazing articles that logically document that it was "impossible" for the levy's to fail. The old civil engineering rule of calculating the maximum then multiplying by three wasn't even close to the actual calculated energies during the hurricane. We are and will continue to get smarter but I guess I am too cynical to think we can beat on our chest and tame mother nature. That said, I am excited to see where wind and wave and nuclear energy go. Although I think seeing 100 windmills in close proximity ruins the landscape.

What has a hurricane to do with your comment about taming nature? Or wave tech?

 

[Buka]

Well yea, but they are at the peak of a hill line. What is on each side of the hill?

Uh.....wait for it.....hillside!

Not much level land here. All volcanic land. They build those things where the best wind blows. We got some big wind.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok, can you not see a comparison between this common issue in engineering, where specialist expertise is countered by people who have non...

...and your view that the information about the conditon of the global climate should be weighed in on by people who do not study climate science and have done no research themselves?

Because to me that is exactly same thing and it is equally frustrating.

Bumping this post up. I would like to see a response from @dvcochran

 

[Flying Crane]

No, I do not.

From what I have seen, it seems to me that the news outlets that lean conservative tend to deny the climate science. If you can point me to a conservative-leaning news source that accepts the climate science and champions the need to take action, please do. I would like to be wrong about that.

At the same time, liberal-leaning outlets tend to champion the climate science, and stand in line with the overwhelming consensus of the scientific community.

This is what I see.

I wonder why these divisions are so clear.

Why do the conservative outlets stand in opposition to the overwhelming scientific consensus?

Bumping this post up also, would like to see a response from @dvcochran

 

[DaveB]

Ask anyone from New Orleans during hurricane Katrina. There are some amazing articles that logically document that it was "impossible" for the levy's to fail. The old civil engineering rule of calculating the maximum then multiplying by three wasn't even close to the actual calculated energies during the hurricane. We are and will continue to get smarter but I guess I am too cynical to think we can beat on our chest and tame mother nature. That said, I am excited to see where wind and wave and nuclear energy go. Although I think seeing 100 windmills in close proximity ruins the landscape.

As does the landscape being underwater.

 

[DaveB]

Curious list. It is ridiculous to make that argument given how much longer oil/coal, nuclear, & hydro have been around.
Germany's Green Energy Disaster: A Cautionary Tale For World Leaders
This link supports my point that this in not just a scientific solution. Runaway socialism and liberalism can be more disastrous than any of than accidents you listed.

Anything done badly is dangerous.

Allowing irrational fear to rule you is more dangerous.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well yea, but they are at the peak of a hill line. What is on each side of the hill?

@Buka lives on Hawaii. Their flat land is all vertical.

 

[dvcochran]

Two problems in that post, DV.

1. That’s not a disaster caused by green technology. It could be called (and perhaps properly) an economic disaster, but that seem to be overstating the issue from what little I know.
2. Your second sentence is a flagrant statement of position without any support given, and a false comparison, at best.

I disagree. The overselling of a technology is the basis for the problem in Germany. Wind power is a great thing. But don't kid yourself. At the current tech it is not a replacement for oil/coal, or hydro. It doesn't even subsidize very well yet. Ok, go ahead and pile on some more.

 

[dvcochran]

Are you still trying to make the issue about Socialism? And Liberalism? That tired old distraction?

Here is a clue: climate change doesn’t give a rat’s *** about the specter of Socialism. Anthropogenic climate change is real. It knows no political distinctions.

And let’s see...you don’t actually need to worry about the Socialism issue because nobody is actually suggesting that the US needs to become a Socialist State in order to deal with it. I guess if Liberalism give you nightmares, well we are here to stay so for you it may be a real problem.

But then again, you know that Socialism isn’t a problem. Because I already told you this in an earlier post.

So maybe you can actually discuss the issue and stop throwing out weak distractions.

Now for my list of energy disasters...I was merely pointing out that our current energy technology comes with plenty of very very costly and damaging problems and catastrophes, so arguing that we cannot implement renewable energy resources on the basis that they are as yet imperfect, is a very flawed argument.

But I think you actually understand this already and simply choose to attempt distractions.

And let’s see...you don’t actually need to worry about the Socialism issue because nobody is actually suggesting that the US needs to become a Socialist State in order to deal with it. I guess if Liberalism give you nightmares, well we are here to stay so for you it may be a real problem.

Hmm, hmm, who is the current conservative POTUS? Likewise conservatives are here to stay, clearly in much greater numbers.

But then again, you know that Socialism isn’t a problem. Because I already told you this in an earlier post.

You obviously do not know that socialism is a problem. Study a little. You saying, anything, in an earlier post means very little.

I have been discussing the bigger picture of the issue. You refuse to get past crying about how it is happening to offer anything in the way of a solution. I have been trying to explain how complex the solution is. If in fact there is one than humans can mitigate. I have more faith in mother nature blowing another big volcano or meteor strike.

 

[dvcochran]

Anything done badly is dangerous.

Allowing irrational fear to rule you is more dangerous.

Because the comment is so much so, it feels rather stupid responding. How does any thinking person get "irrational fear" out of anything I have said. Oh wait, a thinking person....

 

[dvcochran]

Bumping this post up also, would like to see a response from @dvcochran

I do not know what "bumping a post up is". Enlighten me.

 

[dvcochran]

Uh.....wait for it.....hillside!

Not much level land here. All volcanic land. They build those things where the best wind blows. We got some big wind.

I guess I fat fingered the line. Oh wait!, your on an island where the wind blows, all the freaking time. Hmm, good place for a windmill.

 

[dvcochran]

What has a hurricane to do with your comment about taming nature? Or wave tech?

Ocean Wave Energy | BOEM