Circling Destruction

[pete]

Now onto the extension of flashing mace for me.

hehehe, and more fun tweaking captured leaves (that the name of that one, right)... get the dit dat jow ready!

 

[Kenpo Mama]

hehehe ... get the dit dat jow ready!

That just sounds really WRONG on so many levels!!!!

 

[Mr. Dan]

I have to agree with parkerkarate on this one, with the chop to the side of the neck you are catting "up", not back. Using marriage of gravity as well as a little back-up mass. It feels powerful and correct because you can keep the elbow anchored when chopping.

 

[Kenpo Mama]

I have to agree with parkerkarate on this one, with the chop to the side of the neck you are catting "up", not back. Using marriage of gravity as well as a little back-up mass. It feels powerful and correct because you can keep the elbow anchored when chopping.

Hey Mr. Dan,

I'm willing to give this thread... er... technique another looksee, but please if you would, tell me your stance positioning before the cat up, if i am visualizing this correctly you are moving from a right forward bow then stepping up to a right 45 degree cat as you deliver the chop.

So i'm seeing you in the cat still with the weight distribution i described previously even though you are stepping up to the cat your are still in a 90/10 rear leg/front leg distribution. If i understand Marriage of Gravity correctly as quoted from II -

Gravitational Marriage - The uniting of mind, breath, and strength while simultaneously dropping your body weight along with the execution of your natural weapon(s). Timing all of these factors with the dropping of your body weight greatly adds to the force of your strikes. This combined actions literally causes a marriage with gravity and is thus, often referred to as "marriage of gravity".

With this in mind and if you step up to the cat your weight is actually shifting back while your natural weapon is being delivered forward. You also address back-up mass which is triggered by proper BODY ALIGNMENT, again quoted for anyone unfamiliar with the terms...


"Body Alignment - This involves the placing of angles into perspective. It is the coordination of body parts in order to harmonize the angles at which they travel. All parts of the body are aligned to travel in one direction. This principle, when followed, automatically triggers the principle of back-up-mass where body weight enhances your action"

Focusing on the last line of this quote, "all parts of the body aligned to travel in one direction... where body weight enhances your action" regardless of the fact of stepping up to the cat, the strike, from the natural weapon (based upon my "limited" experience) is being delivered from a less powerful position. I appreciate any further discussion of this technique or any others.

Respectfully,

Donna

 

[Mr. Dan]

Going from a right forward bow at the 4:30 angle and moving up and towads 3:00 into the cat stance. I am 6'3" and not many of my training partners are my size, ( a little smaller) so my application of this chop (gravitational marriage) may be a little different than yours, If you wan't a little more power try working the back-up mass principle as you slide in. Your left foot slides up the circle towards the opponent, body moving towards target along with the chop.
p.s. I dont know of anyone who thinks this technique is easy. Good Luck!!

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Going from a right forward bow at the 4:30 angle and moving up and towads 3:00 into the cat stance. I am 6'3" and not many of my training partners are my size, ( a little smaller) so my application of this chop (gravitational marriage) may be a little different than yours, If you wan't a little more power try working the back-up mass principle as you slide in.
p.s. I dont know of anyone who thinks this technique is easy. Good Luck!!

Ah yes, the dreaded height differential, at 5'5" i'm mostly shorter than my training partners, so it definitely makes a difference in the application of the chop. Thanks for the discussion.

Donna :ultracool

 

[c2kenpo]

Hey Mr. Dan,

I'm willing to give this thread... er... technique another looksee, but please if you would, tell me your stance positioning before the cat up, if i am visualizing this correctly you are moving from a right forward bow then stepping up to a right 45 degree cat as you deliver the chop.

So i'm seeing you in the cat still with the weight distribution i described previously even though you are stepping up to the cat your are still in a 90/10 rear leg/front leg distribution. If i understand Marriage of Gravity correctly as quoted from II -

Gravitational Marriage - The uniting of mind, breath, and strength while simultaneously dropping your body weight along with the execution of your natural weapon(s). Timing all of these factors with the dropping of your body weight greatly adds to the force of your strikes. This combined actions literally causes a marriage with gravity and is thus, often referred to as "marriage of gravity".

With this in mind and if you step up to the cat your weight is actually shifting back while your natural weapon is being delivered forward. You also address back-up mass which is triggered by proper BODY ALIGNMENT, again quoted for anyone unfamiliar with the terms...


"Body Alignment - This involves the placing of angles into perspective. It is the coordination of body parts in order to harmonize the angles at which they travel. All parts of the body are aligned to travel in one direction. This principle, when followed, automatically triggers the principle of back-up-mass where body weight enhances your action"

Focusing on the last line of this quote, "all parts of the body aligned to travel in one direction... where body weight enhances your action" regardless of the fact of stepping up to the cat, the strike, from the natural weapon (based upon my "limited" experience) is being delivered from a less powerful position. I appreciate any further discussion of this technique or any others.

Respectfully,

Donna

KenpoMama, I am quoting this post becasue it actually has what you are looking for and Pete alos has the extra answer to this tech I think which helps explain the Striking and catting.

First let me use a point of refrence Short 3 which has several "settling" cat stances so to speak. Yes I know the cat stance is transitional but does that mean we cant settle into a transitional stance and explode out of it?

So take Short 3 we do Destructive Twins and settle then continue till we settle on the end of the technicque ready to move to Crashing Wings (PAUSE) We move to a transitional cat stance in Crashing Wings while we "show" (if taught or not imagine an opponent in from of you at the moment) a finger whip to the eyes before we settle into our width. You can even imagine that cat stance as 2 heal palms to the chest while you settle into your cat stance which creates a bracing angle. This is where Marriage of Gravity and Settling and Power can be derived from your cat stance.

No to Circling Destruction We set our opponent up and have now moved into a forward bow with a heal palm to the jaw (Pete this is where your persitent question "What is your left hand doing?" is so great)

Take you head and turn it to the right and now think of the target your right hand has to hit is it more or LESS exposed?? Of course you are cutting off your target by hitting him with the heel palm. The idea is to OPEN your target by your reverse motion ripping back and down turning the head back to the left stretching the zone out and sliding down the back which creates your shoulder check this also affect your opponents height and width zone and now allows you to bring the right chop to your target while setting into your cat stance by stepping up the circle. By stepping up the circle here and seeing how you can settle into a cat stance by dropping your weight into it (hip rotation I practice it just from neutral to cat) you can see where the power is generated and you are now (or should be) cocked and loaded and yes neutral to your oppnents backside for the scoop kick or whatever you have planned next.

Thie great thing about this technique I think is the ability to change your opponets height and width zones via almost every strike. The worst of all of course to me is the reverse widow wiper effect we have when we hit him with our heel palma nd rib back when we cat up with revers motion OUCH!!.

Just my thoughts on this tech.

David Gunzburg

 

[jaybacca72]

i personallly do the chop from a nuetral bow but have trained it from a cat stance. i think both work well and are situational but if you hit the chop using path of action mentality(ie tea pot theory)and consider the nerve strike involved then you will realize that the stance is not as important meaning both variations will be effective. i prefer the neutral because you have a better base if countered or another opponent decides to hit you,you may be able to weather the storm. as far as the ending goes what variations do other's do i have a couple that work.
later
jay artyon:

 

[Doc]

In my understanding the "knife-hand" to the right rear of the neck is executed from a finishing neutral bow coming off a rotating twist to provide the energy for efficient execution.

 

[Michael Billings]

In my understanding the "knife-hand" to the right rear of the neck is executed from a finishing neutral bow coming off a rotating twist to provide the energy for efficient execution.

That is how I learned it also. The cat was to provide rotation, gravitational marrage, an angle of cancelation, leverage, open the hips for the scoop kick, etc, on the last move????

-Michael

 

[Maltair]

From Kenponet

Circling Destruction (Front- Left Step-Through Punch)


1. An attacker at 12 o'clock comes at you with a left step-through punch.



2. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow as you execute a right inward parry followed by a left outward hooking parry (waiter's hand) to your attacker's left arm. Continue the motion of your right hand so that it executes a right outward backfist to your attacker's left ribs.
3. Step your left foot to 4:30 into a right forward bow facing 10:30 as you execute a left horizontal palm strike to your attacker's face. (Your right hand should be cocked at your right ear.)

4. Pivot into a right neutral bow as simultaneously have your left hand claw across your attacker's face as you execute a right inward handsword to the right side of your attacker's neck.

5. Execute a right front scoop kick to your attacker's groin as you simultaneously thrust a left palm strike to your attacker's left kidney with a right two-finger scoop to your attacker's eyes. 6. Land back to 4:30 into a left neutral bow and cross out. Note: I have seen this ending done differently, so the option is being listed. From your right front scoop kick and eye hook, come crashing back down into a right neutral bow facing 10:30 as you execute a right inward elbow and a left palm strike to your attacker's head. Then cross out.

Taking a look at this, it doesn't seem like you would be far enough behind them to get the sword hand on the right side of there neck.

The version I've learned throws in an extra elbow break with the right hand (like lone kimono from the side) and left waiters perry after backfist to ribs. Use this to help them lean the forward more. Follow up with another backfist to ribs which has them bend over right into the left claw, while stepping with left foot behind to a twist stance.
Anchor claw with elbow to opponents left shoulder blade and pull down as you unwind to a neutral bow around 8 o'clock to deliver the right sword to exposed neck.
As they crumble, go ahead and grab the obligatory eye hook, kidney shot and scoop kick :ultracool

 

[Doc]

From Kenponet

Circling Destruction (Front- Left Step-Through Punch)


1. An attacker at 12 o'clock comes at you with a left step-through punch.



2. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow as you execute a right inward parry followed by a left outward hooking parry (waiter's hand) to your attacker's left arm. Continue the motion of your right hand so that it executes a right outward backfist to your attacker's left ribs.
3. Step your left foot to 4:30 into a right forward bow facing 10:30 as you execute a left horizontal palm strike to your attacker's face. (Your right hand should be cocked at your right ear.)

4. Pivot into a right neutral bow as simultaneously have your left hand claw across your attacker's face as you execute a right inward handsword to the right side of your attacker's neck.

5. Execute a right front scoop kick to your attacker's groin as you simultaneously thrust a left palm strike to your attacker's left kidney with a right two-finger scoop to your attacker's eyes. 6. Land back to 4:30 into a left neutral bow and cross out. Note: I have seen this ending done differently, so the option is being listed. From your right front scoop kick and eye hook, come crashing back down into a right neutral bow facing 10:30 as you execute a right inward elbow and a left palm strike to your attacker's head. Then cross out.

Taking a look at this, it doesn't seem like you would be far enough behind them to get the sword hand on the right side of there neck.

The version I've learned throws in an extra elbow break with the right hand (like lone kimono from the side) and left waiters perry after backfist to ribs. Use this to help them lean the forward more. Follow up with another backfist to ribs which has them bend over right into the left claw, while stepping with left foot behind to a twist stance.
Anchor claw with elbow to opponents left shoulder blade and pull down as you unwind to a neutral bow around 8 o'clock to deliver the right sword to exposed neck.
As they crumble, go ahead and grab the obligatory eye hook, kidney shot and scoop kick :ultracool

Looks good on paper, but I submit the parry's do nothing to control width, or the dreaded "crossing right" in the initial attack. Failure Possibility: High!! Forget the rest.

 

[Michael Billings]

DOC ... you just like to thump them really hard (relaxed, but hard), any time you lay hands on them. Admit it, you enjoy watching them fall down from an inward block to the arm. (... and taken from the thrusting inward block thread ...) My block/strike is sort of circular, but actually more elliptical and with a definite settling when I strike with it at initial contact.

-Michael

 

[Doc]

DOC ... you just like to thump them really hard (relaxed, but hard), any time you lay hands on them. Admit it, you enjoy watching them fall down from an inward block to the arm (... and taken from the thrusting inward block thread ... mine block/strike is sort of circular, but actually more elliptical and with a definite settling when I strike with it )

-Michael

Don't be smug, you do the exact same thing and enjoy it as well.

 

[Maltair]

but I submit the parry's do nothing to control width, or the dreaded "crossing right" in the initial attack..

I thought the double perry was one of Kenpo's bread and butter?

 

[Doc]

I thought the double perry was one of Kenpo's bread and butter?

If it is, your bread has molded. Couldn't resist that one.

In all seriousness, in general and depending upon certain circumstances, the parry is designed to and is supposed to support a hard blocking, or offensive action. Back to back parrys are, and should be rare within techniques sequences of Kenpo. Modern motion-kenpo lives on parrys because it is "easier" and quicker to learn. I'm sure the fact that is appears faster is also a factor in its favorite status. Proper blocking is almost unheard of mostly because there are few that know how to execute or teach it themselves. The reasons for this go back to Ed Parker himself, who only taught the "concept" of blocking in motion-kenpo and NEVER actually taught HOW to block sir.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Circling Destruction at our school goes roughly like this:

Step forward right. Right inward block. Loop the right hand down and around counter clockwise into a right inverted horizontal punch to the back of the left ribcage. Left rear cross over, left inward palm to the face. Unwind to a right neutral bow, right inward handsword to the side of the neck. Right front scoop kick to the groin with a right inward 2 finger hook to the right eye. Plant the right foot back.

Any opinions? I'm always open to what people think. And just so you know I'm not easily offended, so let her rip. (Doc lol)

 

[Doc]

Circling Destruction at our school goes roughly like this:

Step forward right. Right inward block. Loop the right hand down and around counter clockwise into a right inverted horizontal punch to the back of the left ribcage. Left rear cross over, left inward palm to the face. Unwind to a right neutral bow, right inward handsword to the side of the neck. Right front scoop kick to the groin with a right inward 2 finger hook to the right eye. Plant the right foot back.

Any opinions? I'm always open to what people think. And just so you know I'm not easily offended, so let her rip. (Doc lol)

Well I can't rip your teachers method. Apparently it is working for you on some level or you would have questioned it before now. Can it be better? In my opinion, I think so.

Step forward right. Right inward block.

Consider, what is the left hand doing during these actions to make you successful? Your right arm is traveling across your body as you move away from its intended objective. If your left hand which is closer and presumed between you and the attacking weapon, why is it passive? Further, as I envision your description, "blocking" with the right hand as you step out and forward (essentially away from the weapon) would appear somewhat impossible, and at the least very difficult. Your attackers width is not controlled which could allow him, (as a good boxer would) to withdraw his left forward body and cross with his right hand. AT best you hit each other, and "ties" go to the aggressor.

Loop the right hand down and around counter clockwise into a right inverted horizontal punch to the back of the left ribcage.

Considering the previous comment, absent left hand, and suspect positioning, it appears you are striking him as he moves away from you with a strike that also doesn't control his body in some manner.

Left rear cross over, left inward palm to the face.

What is the right hand doing during these actions? I detect contradictory body mechanics. The left foot crosses behind you torquing your hips counterclockwise, while your left heel palm delivers a strike counterclockwise in the opposite direction on a body not in position or under your control.

Unwind to a right neutral bow, right inward handsword to the side of the neck.

Alone this is reasonable. Stepping into the twist created a "reserve energy stance," unpivoting releases that energy to the right side of your body. I hope he is in position for it to be effective.

Right front scoop kick to the groin with a right inward 2 finger hook to the right eye.

All things considered I hope he's there for the kick. However "hooking" a persons eye because he threw a left punch at you would be considered a "maiming" action and in California will get you a felony booking, even if you are not the aggressor. I understand why it is there, I just don't agree it is appropriate.

Tag you're it.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Well I can't rip your teachers method. Apparently it is working for you on some level or you would have questioned it before now. Can it be better? In my opinion, I think so.

Consider, what is the left hand doing during these actions to make you successful? Your right arm is traveling across your body as you move away from its intended objective. If your left hand which is closer and presumed between you and the attacking weapon, why is it passive? Further, as I envision your description, "blocking" with the right hand as you step out and forward (essentially away from the weapon) would appear somewhat impossible, and at the least very difficult. Your attackers width is not controlled which could allow him, (as a good boxer would) to withdraw his left forward body and cross with his right hand. AT best you hit each other, and "ties" go to the aggressor.

Yeah, I left a lot out of the description when writing it, just copied it from our manual which is intended for reference only and doesnt contain any finer points at all. My bad. Well, When stepping forward I try to jam the attacking arm when blocking, the left hand is of course up at all times. So I'm coming in when he punches.

Considering the previous comment, absent left hand, and suspect positioning, it appears you are striking him as he moves away from you with a strike that also doesn't control his body in some manner

When I start to loop the right hand the left had acts as a check to the arm. And I adjust my stance accordingly. I tend to take a small step with both feet ( kinda shuffle and rotate just a little, its really hard for me to explain the footwork that places me in position to be behind him when i cross over) to position myself for the crossover as the right arm punches. But the shuffle and slight rotation should also be done in such a way as to be in "directional harmony" with the punch. (Good ol motion based kenpo lol, it's all I know) I'm horrible at explaining these things in writing.

What is the right hand doing during these actions? I detect contradictory body mechanics. The left foot crosses behind you torquing your hips counterclockwise, while your left heel palm delivers a strike counterclockwise in the opposite direction on a body not in position or under your control.

When I do the crossover and left palm my right arm is up about shoulder level, same position the left arm is in when the palm is started and finished, the elbow is level with the shoulder and hand, horizontally. Both arms are essentially in the same position, providing stability when i do the crossover. The crossover should put me behind the opponent (after i adjust my stance with the right punch) so when i settle into the nuetral bow with the chop to the neck my right leg is lined up for the scoop kick. As the chop is done the left arm is basically in the same position as when it did the palm but not really, again hard to put finer points into words. Then the hands do some other things as your completing your scoop kick but ive massacured this technique with enough badly spelled words for now.

Alone this is reasonable. Stepping into the twist created a "reserve energy stance," unpivoting releases that energy to the right side of your body. I hope he is in position for it to be effective. All things considered I hope he's there for the kick.

Yeah I hope he's there too lol.

However "hooking" a persons eye because he threw a left punch at you would be considered a "maiming" action and in California will get you a felony booking, even if you are not the aggressor. I understand why it is there, I just don't agree it is appropriate.

I agree Doc.

Tag you're it.

Now youre it.

 

[Doc]

Yeah, I left a lot out of the description when writing it, just copied it from our manual which is intended for reference only and doesnt contain any finer points at all. My bad. Well, When stepping forward I try to jam the attacking arm when blocking, the left hand is of course up at all times. So I'm coming in when he punches.

The left hand is "up?" What does that mean? If its up and its closer, why isn't it "blocking" or something active instead of passively just "up?"

When I start to loop the right hand the left had acts as a check to the arm.

Keep in mind that when a person throws a punch, he doesn't leave it there to be "checked." Once it is expended it will withdraw in preparation for or with another action.

And I adjust my stance accordingly. I tend to take a small step with both feet ( kinda shuffle and rotate just a little, its really hard for me to explain the footwork that places me in position to be behind him when i cross over) to position myself for the crossover as the right arm punches. But the shuffle and slight rotation should also be done in such a way as to be in "directional harmony" with the punch.

You were doing OK until you said "directional Harmony" WITH the punch.

When I do the crossover and left palm my right arm is up about shoulder level, same position the left arm is in when the palm is started and finished, the elbow is level with the shoulder and hand, horizontally. Both arms are essentially in the same position, providing stability when i do the crossover. The crossover should put me behind the opponent (after i adjust my stance with the right punch) so when i settle into the nuetral bow with the chop to the neck my right leg is lined up for the scoop kick. As the chop is done the left arm is basically in the same position as when it did the palm but not really, again hard to put finer points into words. Then the hands do some other things as your completing your scoop kick but ive massacured this technique with enough badly spelled words for now.

The hands do "other things" as you kick? This is really hard isn't it? Explaining on paper what you take for granted in execution is extremely difficult. A for effort.

Now youre it.

My biggest thing would be to advise you of being specific with your hands. Both hands should have precise assignments, and be active at all times. The "positional check" of motion kenpo is anomolous in human anatomy. The body constantly seeks and thrives mechanically on sematry. If there is any doubt what a hand should do at any given moment, than you're in trouble. Consider writing your own precise notes for your techniques over and above what's in those "manuals" which we've discovered really don't tell you much.

Think about that, and thanks for the brain exercise. We both learned something.