Chungul Sang Soo Makee Questions

[Lynne]

Chungul Sang Soo Makee = double-fist block

I learned this move in Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung. Why is the word Chungul part of the name of the move? I note that we go into a lower front stance when doing the double-fist block. Is Chungul to emphasize dropping lower than usual? Or does it merely mean a double fist block in front of the body?

Also, my Chil-Sung form hasn't been critiqued yet (and it may not be before the competition). Do we arc/circle the arm at all going into the double-fist block? I would think maybe a bit of circling like we do with the inside/outside block.

I just found out that I need to arc my arm for Chun Dan Soo Do Makee.

Lots of subtleties.

 

[MBuzzy]

Lynne,

The chungul simply specifies that you're doing the block in front stance. Ever notice that some movements have the words "Hu Gul" in front of them? Hu Gul Yup Mahk Kee for example? That's just a backstance movement.

Can you please describe what you mean by circling and arcing? Not quite following you there.

If you intend to compete with a form, I strongly suggest that you have someone take a look at it before you go in front of judges. There is absolutely NO REASON for no one to critique it. In fact, if you are expected to compete with it (especially since it seems like you were coerced into it), someone definately needs to at least check it out. And there is no reason for your instructor not to!!! Even if it is simply a senior belt. You may have to go seek them out, but you need to have someone take a look with an objective eye.

I'm not sure if it is the same way at your school, but I was always taught that it is the instructor's job to TEACH, it is the student's job to follow up.

 

[jks9199]

Lynne,

The chungul simply specifies that you're doing the block in front stance. Ever notice that some movements have the words "Hu Gul" in front of them? Hu Gul Yup Mahk Kee for example? That's just a backstance movement.

Can you please describe what you mean by circling and arcing? Not quite following you there.

If you intend to compete with a form, I strongly suggest that you have someone take a look at it before you go in front of judges. There is absolutely NO REASON for no one to critique it. In fact, if you are expected to compete with it (especially since it seems like you were coerced into it), someone definately needs to at least check it out. And there is no reason for your instructor not to!!! Even if it is simply a senior belt. You may have to go seek them out, but you need to have someone take a look with an objective eye.

I'm not sure if it is the same way at your school, but I was always taught that it is the instructor's job to TEACH, it is the student's job to follow up.

I can't re-emphasize enough that there is no excuse for them not to have assessed and critiqued your form.

My students DO NOT compete with a form unless I've signed off on it. After all, my reputation is riding on them doing it well -- or poorly.

I realize you're happy with your school -- but I've got to wonder where the instructors and especially the head instructor is.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

What MBuzzy said; chungul just refers to the stance. Also, if it's a low two-fisted block, it's ha dan ssang soo mahkee. High two-hand block is sang dan ssang soo mahkee. AFAIK, without the mention of hit level, it's the "inside-outside block" version.

I also agree with upnorthkyosa. You really should be being critiqued by your instructors, and often. I don't understand an instructor who wouldn't stop you in the middle of the form whenever and wherever he/she saw you making a slight error in technique.

 

[MBuzzy]

And Lynne, I've said this before....but you really need to remember that you are PAYING for a service. Obviously there is so much more to it than that....but when you get right down to it, its a business and you are paying for a service. If you don't feel that you are getting what you need, deserve or are PAYING FOR....you have a right to go talk to your instructor about it. VERY RESPECTFULLY of course....

 

[Tez3]

I go with what everyone has said! In the organisation I did my TSD gradings with the Hyung you are doing is a 2nd Dan one so seems an odd choice they made for you.

 

[agemechanic03]

I go with what everyone has said! In the organisation I did my TSD gradings with the Hyung you are doing is a 2nd Dan one so seems an odd choice they made for you.

Tez, For a lot of the orgs, learning the Chil Sungs at lower levels is part of the curriculi to achieve Cho Dan. For us here in Korea, it's the same as yours, but he teaches us all the forms up to like Sam Dan. Just depends on which org you are affiliated with.

Chris

 

[Tez3]

Tez, For a lot of the orgs, learning the Chil Sungs at lower levels is part of the curriculi to achieve Cho Dan. For us here in Korea, it's the same as yours, but he teaches us all the forms up to like Sam Dan. Just depends on which org you are affiliated with.

Chris

When I did Wado Ryu we were taught katas ahead of the ones we needed for grading so we had plenty of practice time in with them before we needed them but we were expected and it made sense, to compete with katas that were either our grade or lower. We might have got away with the next belt ups kata but no higher and we would have had to have practised for a long time at at. I've never competed with a kata that I've only just learnt or am still learning, far too much pressure there.
Perhaps we should have a separate thread where we can post up which hyungs we do in what order? I'll start it off if anyone thinks it could be useful?

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Tez, I think that would be interesting.

Regarding the critique of your technique Lynne, as an eigth gup you should be getting corrected a lot. I'm sure our students get sick of me correcting them...

 

[Tez3]

I have to get ready for training now but will do a new thread when I get back tonight.There's another syllabus for our club now replacing the one I do but it still makes Chil Sung Ee Ro a black belt hyung only 1st Dan now.

Looking at my book Chil Sung Ee Ro seems to be a nice straight forward Hyung, I've looked at the double block as as it reads to me you turn from the reverse punch 90 deg into a normal front stance and straight into the double block, no circling or arcing. As you turn you move your arms into the block as you would normally. My book calls it Sang Soo Joong Dan Mahk Kee. As JT says it the inside-outside block.

I'm going to go through it tonight, as I said it does seem a straight forward one but I do think you must have done all the moves thoroughly in class before it becomes easy to learn. It's one of the joys of becoming more experienced that you find hyungs easier to understand and learn. Putting what you've learned in the line work into them and finding you know the movements is a special feeling!

 

[Lynne]

Lynne,

The chungul simply specifies that you're doing the block in front stance. Ever notice that some movements have the words "Hu Gul" in front of them? Hu Gul Yup Mahk Kee for example? That's just a backstance movement.

Can you please describe what you mean by circling and arcing? Not quite following you there.

If you intend to compete with a form, I strongly suggest that you have someone take a look at it before you go in front of judges. There is absolutely NO REASON for no one to critique it. In fact, if you are expected to compete with it (especially since it seems like you were coerced into it), someone definately needs to at least check it out. And there is no reason for your instructor not to!!! Even if it is simply a senior belt. You may have to go seek them out, but you need to have someone take a look with an objective eye.

I'm not sure if it is the same way at your school, but I was always taught that it is the instructor's job to TEACH, it is the student's job to follow up.

Hi,

By arcing, I mean as our school does in an inside/outside block. As you move the blocking arm from below the preparing arm, you move it in a fashion like a windshield wiper rather than a straight line.

Some of the other orange belts in Black Belt Club say they are not doing the Chil-Sung forms but Pyong Ahn Cho Dan or Pyong Ahn E Dan because they are not comfortable with the Chil-Sung forms. The Instructor (not school owner) said to all of us in black belt club, "Who is doing forms in the competition? Master R wants to see Chil-Sung forms." And he began teaching us Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung. So, I assumed that meant all belts in BBC were to do Chil-Sung. Obviously, they want us to. But maybe it's not an absolute requirement as others have decided they are not going to do a Chil-Sung form.

How would you all have taken that? I assume that if the Master of the school wants you to do something, you do it.

 

[Lynne]

Tez, I think that would be interesting.

Regarding the critique of your technique Lynne, as an eigth gup you should be getting corrected a lot. I'm sure our students get sick of me correcting them...

I got lots of critiquing at white belt.

I wouldn't get sick of the critiquing. I want to do things right. I'd hate to hear a year down the road, "Your back stance is wrong because...."

 

[Lynne]

I have to get ready for training now but will do a new thread when I get back tonight.There's another syllabus for our club now replacing the one I do but it still makes Chil Sung Ee Ro a black belt hyung only 1st Dan now.

Looking at my book Chil Sung Ee Ro seems to be a nice straight forward Hyung, I've looked at the double block as as it reads to me you turn from the reverse punch 90 deg into a normal front stance and straight into the double block, no circling or arcing. As you turn you move your arms into the block as you would normally. My book calls it Sang Soo Joong Dan Mahk Kee. As JT says it the inside-outside block.

I'm going to go through it tonight, as I said it does seem a straight forward one but I do think you must have done all the moves thoroughly in class before it becomes easy to learn. It's one of the joys of becoming more experienced that you find hyungs easier to understand and learn. Putting what you've learned in the line work into them and finding you know the movements is a special feeling!

Thanks, Tez. One of the few blocks that doesn't require some sort of circling or arcing movement!

 

[Lynne]

Tez, For a lot of the orgs, learning the Chil Sungs at lower levels is part of the curriculi to achieve Cho Dan. For us here in Korea, it's the same as yours, but he teaches us all the forms up to like Sam Dan. Just depends on which org you are affiliated with.

Chris

In our school, they teach the Chil-Sung forms to those in the Black Belt Club as we are expected to work harder - it's really a perk, I think. Otherwise, they start teaching Chil-Sungs at red belt but I'm not sure which gup level of red belt or how many Chil-Sungs they teach.

 

[Lynne]

What MBuzzy said; chungul just refers to the stance. Also, if it's a low two-fisted block, it's ha dan ssang soo mahkee. High two-hand block is sang dan ssang soo mahkee. AFAIK, without the mention of hit level, it's the "inside-outside block" version.

I also agree with upnorthkyosa. You really should be being critiqued by your instructors, and often. I don't understand an instructor who wouldn't stop you in the middle of the form whenever and wherever he/she saw you making a slight error in technique.

I started learning the form in class during BBC week. And I've done it once more in class as practice for the competition. I don't know if we'll practice again before the competition. I may grab someone or go to a special help class.

Winning isn't important but doing the form correctly is. I have to admit if I do well with it, I'll impress myself. I think at my level, it takes a good 6 - 8 weeks of learning my gup forms to feel comfortable, like I have a bit of muscle memory. And the Chil-Sung, with quite a few new moves is like learning a foreign language.

 

[Lynne]

I can't re-emphasize enough that there is no excuse for them not to have assessed and critiqued your form.

My students DO NOT compete with a form unless I've signed off on it. After all, my reputation is riding on them doing it well -- or poorly.

I realize you're happy with your school -- but I've got to wonder where the instructors and especially the head instructor is.

You make a good point about a student's performance reflecting on the quality of instruction. I'm dedicated but that doesn't mean finesse in anything, period. I think we're capable of doing the higher forms and doing them fairly well with lots of practice. But if one isn't critiqued, there is no way to know if the form is being executed properly. So many subtle things, such as stepping at the correct angle, chopping at the right angle and so on. And there could be huge blunders that we are unaware of since some of the blocks are new to us (not to mention the low stances and energy presses).

I'm beginning to think they may not know I'm doing the Chil-Sung considering that other gups have opted out of doing the Chil-Sung forms. I do remember an instructor asking me what form I was going to do and I replied, "Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung" and they were excited for me. To me, it didn't sound like a choice but to do Chil-Sung for Black Belt Club members.. "Master R wants to see BBC doing Chil-Sung forms." He also might not know that people have opted out of doing Chil-Sungs. I will grab someone for a critique.

I explained a bit about our school philosophy in my spotlight thread. We receive a requirements sheet for each gup level and there is no excuse for not learning the material. We are encouraged to grab a higher belt or attend special help classes. The idea is to promote a teamwork/family atmosphere.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

These higher belts, am I correct in assuming these are not trained instructors?

That is the way to learn bad technique, get injuries and end up in all sorts of horrible messes. In addition, they will not be insured to teach you.

Can you choose your forms?

We receive a requirements sheet for each gup level and there is no excuse for not learning the material.

Even if you are not taught it by your instructors?

 

[MBuzzy]

Lynne, please don't feel that anyone is attacking, criticizing, or insulting you or your school. Everyone is just concerned about the instruction.

Just giving you a requirements sheet DOES NOT substitute for providing REAL instruction. and every Martial Arts instructor in the world knows that one class is not enough to learn material like that. Especially standardized movements like those.

And think about it from an objective standpoint....how does it sound when the instructor who you are paying says "Well, it is your responsibility to go find another student to learn." Actually, no, it is THEIR responsibility to TEACH you. It is wonderful to have a family atmosphere, but that sounds like an excuse for not teaching.

Again, please know that we are all just concerned about your training and want you to get the best possible!! You deserve it as do all of the other students.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Lynne, please don't feel that anyone is attacking, criticizing, or insulting you or your school. Everyone is just concerned about the instruction.

Just giving you a requirements sheet DOES NOT substitute for providing REAL instruction. and every Martial Arts instructor in the world knows that one class is not enough to learn material like that. Especially standardized movements like those.

And think about it from an objective standpoint....how does it sound when the instructor who you are paying says "Well, it is your responsibility to go find another student to learn." Actually, no, it is THEIR responsibility to TEACH you. It is wonderful to have a family atmosphere, but that sounds like an excuse for not teaching.

Again, please know that we are all just concerned about your training and want you to get the best possible!! You deserve it as do all of the other students.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Lynne, please don't feel that anyone is attacking, criticizing, or insulting you or your school. Everyone is just concerned about the instruction.

Just giving you a requirements sheet DOES NOT substitute for providing REAL instruction. and every Martial Arts instructor in the world knows that one class is not enough to learn material like that. Especially standardized movements like those.

And think about it from an objective standpoint....how does it sound when the instructor who you are paying says "Well, it is your responsibility to go find another student to learn." Actually, no, it is THEIR responsibility to TEACH you. It is wonderful to have a family atmosphere, but that sounds like an excuse for not teaching.

Again, please know that we are all just concerned about your training and want you to get the best possible!! You deserve it as do all of the other students.

I third that. Students at my school are encouraged to ask the senior belts for help, but that still doesn't replace the instructor. If you're paying someone for a service that they are not providing, you really need to start asking questions.