Chuan fa

[Flying Crane]

Well, I read the article you posted and it is vague and general enough to be unhelpful. There is no real description of the methodology that makes these punches unique (or to recognize if they are NOT unique and are done in other methods and known by a different name). Hell, everything he described could be used to describe how we develop our punches in Tibetan White Crane, but I won’t go out on a limb and make the claim that it is the same.

What it seems to me he is describing is the notion that the entire body from the feet on up is trained to connect and operate as a single unit, developing much greater power than could be generated if a punch is thrown using the muscles of the arm, shoulder, back, and chest. This concept should exist in some format in every martial art, but it seems to me that while it is often given lip service, a functional understanding of this concept is often absent in most schools. I believe it has been lost over time due to poor teaching, and the downstream is unlikely to regain it unless someone steps in to teach them. People generally do not figure this out by themselves.

As has been pointed out previously in this thread, the term Chuan Fa is a generic term that simply means fist/fighting method. It is similar to the term karate, in that by itself it is very generic and only gets more specific if it is tied to a method like Shotokan or Goju-ryu, for example. The term Shaolin Chuan Fa is very generic and could reference any of the numerous methods connected to Shaolin. I see the author is or was a teacher of Pai Lum, which I don’t pretend to know much of anything about.

 

[Cri70]

just to clarify, it was the japanese who renamed "china hand" to "empty hand" as they did not want to any association with chinese influences when karate came to Japan

I always read it was Funakoshi (who was Okinawan) who did, but while residing in Tokyo, and for the reason you mention (aka marketing - "chinese hand" would have now gone down too well the nationalistic climate of pre-WWII Japan). If I don't remember badly from one of his books, he conferred with the few other masters actively promoting the name change. Apparently he was trying hard to "sell" the art to the Japanese authorities and the change of name (two different kanji with same pronunciation but different meanings) was just one of the many things he did to achieve that goal. Others were the adoption of do-gi, removing/de-emphasizing throwing and grappling since Judo was already a thing in the field, getting access via his good friend Kano, introducing a lot of the pseudo-militaristic traits it still has (everybody at attention, strong protocol and ceremony, uniforms, sensei's orders aren't to be questioned, questions aren't very encouraged, just do and you will eventually get why) and of course stressing karate as a body- and character-building activity as opposite to a combat technique.

These ideas probably came directly from one of his teachers, Itosu, who had "de-fanged" katas quite a bit when successfully introducing it to primary schools in Okinawa. By is own pen, Funakoshi was not particularly averse to make deep changes to achieve a goal - after all, he had experienced himself a lot of them, starting from the cancellation of the samurai class which had impacted his family. He also explicitly said in his later years that the karate of its time was different from the one he learned as a young boy (and certainly it was!), and it was only natural. He seemed to be a strange mix of traditional but change-friendly.

Both Funakoshi and Itosu were trying very hard to save what was, at the time, a very niche cultural expression in real and present danger of extinction - while (this is only my $.10 opinion) at the same time avoiding to give actual effective weapons to lots of random people. Karate was traditionally passed on to selected people on a 1-1 basis, so possibly they saw a danger in making its applications public domain (and the more I understand katas, the more I begin to agree with them ).

Also, while Japan in the 1920 was still a constitutional monarchy with an elected parliament, it was already towards the end of the Taisho period, and Japan would move into a much more totalitarian and nationalistic period, which probably was already very much in the air just before 1922, so selling karate as a discipline-inducing activity was a very good marketing move.

So changing the kanji from "chinese" to "empty" while preserving the pronunciation was probably a good move.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I always read it was Funakoshi (who was Okinawan) who did, but while residing in Tokyo, and for the reason you mention (aka marketing - "chinese hand" would have now gone down too well the nationalistic climate of pre-WWII Japan). If I don't remember badly from one of his books, he conferred with the few other masters actively promoting the name change. Apparently he was trying hard to "sell" the art to the Japanese authorities and the change of name (two different kanji with same pronunciation but different meanings) was just one of the many things he did to achieve that goal. Others were the adoption of do-gi, removing/de-emphasizing throwing and grappling since Judo was already a thing in the field, getting access via his good friend Kano, introducing a lot of the pseudo-militaristic traits it still has (everybody at attention, strong protocol and ceremony, uniforms, sensei's orders aren't to be questioned, questions aren't very encouraged, just do and you will eventually get why) and of course stressing karate as a body- and character-building activity as opposite to a combat technique.

These ideas probably came directly from one of his teachers, Itosu, who had "de-fanged" katas quite a bit when successfully introducing it to primary schools in Okinawa. By is own pen, Funakoshi was not particularly averse to make deep changes to achieve a goal - after all, he had experienced himself a lot of them, starting from the cancellation of the samurai class which had impacted his family. He also explicitly said in his later years that the karate of its time was different from the one he learned as a young boy (and certainly it was!), and it was only natural. He seemed to be a strange mix of traditional but change-friendly.

Both Funakoshi and Itosu were trying very hard to save what was, at the time, a very niche cultural expression in real and present danger of extinction - while (this is only my $.10 opinion) at the same time avoiding to give actual effective weapons to lots of random people. Karate was traditionally passed on to selected people on a 1-1 basis, so possibly they saw a danger in making its applications public domain (and the more I understand katas, the more I begin to agree with them ).

Also, while Japan in the 1920 was still a constitutional monarchy with an elected parliament, it was already towards the end of the Taisho period, and Japan would move into a much more totalitarian and nationalistic period, which probably was already very much in the air just before 1922, so selling karate as a discipline-inducing activity was a very good marketing move.

So changing the kanji from "chinese" to "empty" while preserving the pronunciation was probably a good move.

All the above is pretty much the way it was, though the timing I think is a little off. All of the changes in karate did not happen at one time, but over a few years and I believe the militaristic nationalism didn't really start till after 1930 (though it's hard to put an exact date to cultural changes).

I also think you're crediting (for good or ill) Funakoshi and Itosu too much for some of these changes. It was more the Japanese establishment (Dept. of Physical Education, basically) that mandated these changes to conform karate to the existing MA sport structure. Funakoshi was certainly instrumental at first, but then the JKA pretty much took control and left him in the dust. Meanwhile, in Okinawa, things remained more traditional till post WWII and beyond.

 

[mograph]

Ch'uan fa (or quan fa) is literally translated as "fist method," or better as "boxing method." "Boxing way" is a possibility, as long as it's not "boxing path," which would be quan dao.

The Japanese might have called it "China fist."

But it's not a good idea to place get too much meaning from English translations.

 

[CMyers0323]

Well, I read the article you posted and it is vague and general enough to be unhelpful. There is no real description of the methodology that makes these punches unique (or to recognize if they are NOT unique and are done in other methods and known by a different name). Hell, everything he described could be used to describe how we develop our punches in Tibetan White Crane, but I won’t go out on a limb and make the claim that it is the same.

What it seems to me he is describing is the notion that the entire body from the feet on up is trained to connect and operate as a single unit, developing much greater power than could be generated if a punch is thrown using the muscles of the arm, shoulder, back, and chest. This concept should exist in some format in every martial art, but it seems to me that while it is often given lip service, a functional understanding of this concept is often absent in most schools. I believe it has been lost over time due to poor teaching, and the downstream is unlikely to regain it unless someone steps in to teach them. People generally do not figure this out by themselves.

As has been pointed out previously in this thread, the term Chuan Fa is a generic term that simply means fist/fighting method. It is similar to the term karate, in that by itself it is very generic and only gets more specific if it is tied to a method like Shotokan or Goju-ryu, for example. The term Shaolin Chuan Fa is very generic and could reference any of the numerous methods connected to Shaolin. I see the author is or was a teacher of Pai Lum, which I don’t pretend to know much of anything about.

Yeah honestly I notice alot of articles and some even books are the same. I guess it's done maybe to pull more students? Not saying anyone should rely on this stuff to learn but it would be cool to see deeper explanations.

I have learned a few of the cutting techniques. Being the sunfist, reverse punch and backfire. I can't say I've seen cutting punches in other styles but penetrating power is something I assume all styles do. The mechanics behind the cutting punch are a bit difficult to explain but I believe they have some demonstrations on youtube if you look up grandmaster Tsai.

I gotta agree there I feel alot gets lost probably in just translation alone let alone if someone isn't taught right or other factors. I did after posting this find more about the author or the martial artist Glenn c Wilson but I have no idea where this article was from or if he teaches them openly.

Yeah I never really got more info on it other than it being street Kung Fu haha. I'd have to ask more from my Sifu about the lineage we teach. I never really got much into that. But thanks for the reply I appreciate it!

 

[CMyers0323]

Ch'uan fa (or quan fa) is literally translated as "fist method," or better as "boxing method." "Boxing way" is a possibility, as long as it's not "boxing path," which would be quan dao.

The Japanese might have called it "China fist."

But it's not a good idea to place get too much meaning from English translations.

Thanks I appreciate that. It seems interesting that it's a general term. This guy is the only other school I've ever seen mention the cutting fist I'm not sure if there's any connection to the lineages or of its something else but it's pretty cool to learn more about it!

 

[Cri70]

All the above is pretty much the way it was, though the timing I think is a little off. All of the changes in karate did not happen at one time, but over a few years and I believe the militaristic nationalism didn't really start till after 1930 (though it's hard to put an exact date to cultural changes).

I also think you're crediting (for good or ill) Funakoshi and Itosu too much for some of these changes. It was more the Japanese establishment (Dept. of Physical Education, basically) that mandated these changes to conform karate to the existing MA sport structure. Funakoshi was certainly instrumental at first, but then the JKA pretty much took control and left him in the dust. Meanwhile, in Okinawa, things remained more traditional till post WWII and beyond.

Yes, may well be - I'm no historian, and it's difficult even for these to say with any certainty what happened at that level.

Some forces must already be well at work in the 20s tough (as it happened across most of the world, for similar reasons) even if they didnt get into full swing til 1932.

 

[frank raud]

True Wally Jay- Bernie Lau & Mike Irabela are all Danzan ryu jujitsu.

I realize that the OP has not been here for awhile and won't respond but Bernie Lau is Danzan ryu? I thought he was an Aikido guy through and through.