Mod Note
Please return to the original topic.
Pamela Piszczek
MT Moderator
Please return to the original topic.
Pamela Piszczek
MT Moderator
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Your accusation that I am impugning the intelligence of others is baseless. It is the product of reading intention into an admittedly ambiguous medium.
I strongly disagree with this. I think that most Christians are completely in the dark regarding the pagan roots of not only their holidays but their entire religion.
My understanding of the topic from the original poster, was to demonstrate how dum r us chriss tee ins because we dunno wat da oreegeens uf r holy daze is:
"Daddy, why do we celebrate Christmas?"
"Daddy, why do we celebrate Christmas?"
Because this happens to be the day that was set aside to honor Jesus' Birthday.
Because this happens to be the day that was set aside to honor Jesus' Birthday. Is it really his Birthday, most likely no, but because nobody knows for sure, people long ago chose December 25th.
Full article.The eventual choice of December 25, made perhaps as early as 273, reflects a convergence of Origen's concern about pagan gods and the church's identification of God's son with the celestial sun. December 25 already hosted two other related festivals: natalis solis invicti (the Roman "birth of the unconquered sun"), and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of Righteousness" whose worship was popular with Roman soldiers. The winter solstice, another celebration of the sun, fell just a few days earlier. Seeing that pagans were already exalting deities with some parallels to the true deity, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a new festival.
Exactly, Jade Tigress.
That is also why the Church authorities moved the Jewish sabbath (which is on Saturday) to Sunday. Because SUNday is the day the Hellenistic Romans celebrated their solar deity (Apollo, I believe) on.
That is also why the solar "Cross of Light" was chosen as a religious symbol for the new faith. We do not find any iconography of Christ Crucified until well into the late fifth to early sixth centuries. There is no association of Christianity with the Cross, either, until at least the fourth century.
The earliest depiction of Christ's death is in the Pauline Galatians. He is described as "hung from a gibbet". There is no mention of a cross.
Laterz.
One of my thoughts about a solution to this problem is to teach Christmas as a multicultural holiday. How cool would it be to strip the Christian veneer off and put into its proper context and then to teach about how many other cultures are touching our lives?
Here, Lemme get you started:
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]Please accept with no obligation,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]implied or implicit our best wishes for[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]an environmentally conscious,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]socially responsible, low stress,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]non-addictive, gender neutral,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]celebration of the winter solstice[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]holiday, practiced within the most[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]enjoyable traditions of the religious[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]persuasion of your choice, or secular[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]practices of your choice, with respect[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]for the religious/secular persuasions[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]and/or traditions of others, or their[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]choice not to practice religious or[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]secular traditions at all ...[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]and a fiscally successful,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]personally fulfilling, and medically[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]uncomplicated recognition of the onset[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]of the generally accepted calendar[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]year _______, but not without due respect[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]for the calendars of choice of other[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]cultures whose contributions to[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]society have helped make America great,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono](not to imply that America is necessarily[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]greater than any other country or is[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]the only "AMERICA" in the western[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]hemisphere), and without regard to the[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]race, creed, color, age, physical ability,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]religious faith, choice of computer platform,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]or sexual preference of the wishee.[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]- DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTABILITY -[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono](By accepting this greeting,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]you are accepting these terms.[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]This greeting is subject to[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]clarification or withdrawal. It is freely[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]transferable with no alteration to the[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]original greeting. It implies no[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]promise by the wisher to actually[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]implement any of the wishes for[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]her/himself or others, and is[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]void where prohibited by law, and is[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]revocable at the sole discretion of[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]the wisher. This wish is warranted[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]to perform as expected within the[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]usual application of good tidings[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]for a period of one year, or until the[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]whichever comes first, and warranty is[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]limited to replacement of this wish[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]or issuance of a new wish at the[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]sole discretion of the wisher.)[/FONT]
How does this relate to celebrating "Christmas" as a multicultural holiday?
I did what you suggested, I saw "How cool would it be to strip the Christian veneer off"
Thus the celebration of the true multicultural origin of our christmas holiday is rationally sound.
I agree with you in part. However, individuals are not typically multicultural, and neither are families. Coming from a somewhat atypically multicultural family, I can tell you that while such celebrations are possible, they also can incvariably lead to conflict.
While my father the minister and I had numerous friendly discussions on just such matters, especially in regards to Christianity and the early church (and you should really look at the ties between Mithraism and the Nativity story-Mithras's birthday was Dec. 25 long before Jesus's, and that's why we celebrate Christmas on that day...) there have been others for whom such discussions are impossible. Ditto the marriage (almost a certainty) of the person called Jesus, church teaching to the contrary notwithstanding.
As far as the whole "Christmas=Sex Magic" thing goes, I'd have to answer, "to whom?" Why in the world should any of the world's Christians have to accept this, or celebrate it? Religion in such matters as their mythology are a thing of faith. Suggesting that people change their traditions in the name of diversity, at least where they cause no one harm, is almost as silly as suggesting that we all should celebrate Kwanzaa-a holdiday more ridiculous than Festivus.
It's interesting to me that the video is a Christian, anti-celebration of Christmas propaganda screed.
As I have noticed...and this usually increases proportionally to the amount of ego a person has invested into this fantasy.
Jesus = Mithras. Constantine unites the empire.
I would never force in on anyone, however, for the sake of intellectual honestly in presenting a worldview that was rationally sound and grounded in actual historic fact, I would make sure that my progeny knew source of this holiday. I would also make sure that they knew that the current chic religions were nothing but bastardizations of the old religions.
Your use of the word "fantasy" indicates a prejudice on your part.
Yes, and no. Constantine was actually a member of the Sol Invictus cult- and his conversion story shows elements of the Sol Invictus mythos,disguised as Christ, though he may also have been (as were many Roman soldiers) a Mithraist. However, the co-opting of the Mithrais nativity for Jesus is one of those two-way early church syncresis that are so interesting. It isn't as though the church simply co-opted Mithrais; it was also dependent upon the simple fact that a large portion of the membership (and not all) weren't willing to give elements of their Mithraism up, in spite of its being otherwise virtually eradicated in the rising power of the one, true state sanctioned religion, Christianity. The same sort of thing can be seen with Obeah practicing Africans disguising their gods as Christian saints, thus we have voodoo. Or the Church building sanctuaries on previously pagan places of worship and sacred sites throughout Europe. Or in the indians of Mexico disguising tha Aztec goddess Tonantzin as the Virgin of Guadelupe.
In fact, for the most part, if you scratch a Catholic saint hard enough in the place of his birth, invariably you'll find that underneath he's some forgotten local god.
Not bastardizations at all. There's a legitimate, scientific word for it, in the anthropological study of religion, and it's called syncreticism. It's always happened and I think always will. Again, because of my rather atypical heritage, I have a somewhat unique perspective on this, in that my family-at least, on my father's side-has a rich syncretic tradition that has Indian, African, Polynesian and Christain elements....
Great how your going to teach your kids, btw. Somewhat better than the simple default to teaching nothing that I've seen in many agnostic/atheist/ambivalent families.