christian disrespect!

[Phoenix44]

It occurs to me that maybe the instructor feels that the meditation period has absolutely nothing to do with religion or prayer, but is just time to calm your mind. That's not "Christian disrespect," by the way, any more that what you feel is "Buddhist disrespect." It may simply be that this meditation period is not for the purpose of any religion.

I had two Roman Catholic students confide that bowing in the beginning of class made them uncomfortable. I told them not to do anything that made them feel it violated their religion. On the other hand, they didn't feel the need to spend the time praying, either.

 

[TheBattousai]

I respect that..but I am neither overzealous....or fanatical about my belief...I do feel that I am doing bhuddist things

I have to make one comment on this. Meditaion is mentioned in the bible by King David in Psalm 46:10; Be still, and know that I am God. In the way I was taught to meditate, the idea of it was that when you said things to God threw prayer, you did all the talking. In meditation, you empty your mind and wait for an answer. You can get an answer from prayers by not letting him give it to you. Also if the instructor has a problem with crossing your chest, then bring up menkyo buddhism, were they practice various hand symbols for clearing there mind and concentration; simular aspects in thinking between the two.

 

[Jagermeister]

A reasonable compromise may be that you think about whatever you like, but avoid gestures that may be distracting, or possibly disturbing, to other people. In addition, if this is a private facility rather than a public one, then the owner/operator/instructor has the legal right to ask you to desist, at least in the US - whether or not he has the moral right is an argument for a different thread.

Very good point here. When it comes down to it, he makes the rules. And if you respect him, do your prayer and wait until later to do the cross thing, if it's really that necessary. I like Andrew Green's analogy regarding following the customs of another culture/religion - kind of like the "when in Rome" sort of thing.

To summarize: don't make a big deal of it - he's not trying to disrespect your religion.

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

I am a Roman Catholic...well when we have times of meditation...I feel as if I am praying to a bhudda...so I get caught saying prayers when the class is meditating..in the times when you must reflect on the things you have learned..."MOKOSOI" I think its called in karate. I just say a quick thank you to God that we had a good session and that no one was hurt..and if someone was that he wasnt hurt to bad..and to ask him to help me absorb all I learnt that day! I also begin my session with a quick prayer..for everyones safety!

A senior member of the Federation pointed it out, he said that it was disrespectfull to make the sign of the cross while meditating...I dont see that I am doing anything wrong...In all other factors i am one of the best students, not in terms of I can kick butt....but I make it my point to observe ettiquette...I never talk unless we are asked if we have questions...i will attempt everything the masters say without complaint and i suck it up as much as I can...except for the days when they want to work you into the ground! I know what it means to stand before a master and the things that need to be done to show respect

I was interested in your take on this disrespect because I take the time to pray during meditation!

*bows respectfully*

If I come to your house for dinner and everyone in your household does a meal time prayer/ grace. I would participate in doing so to show respect to you and your family. But if you come to my house and start doing that christian stuff at my dinner table, you will be having dinner with my dog outside my house for sure.

 

[aplonis]

Are there any fundamental (pun intended) differences between praying to Yaweh on the one and, and say...Baal...on the other? If there are then it is similarly possible that an equally fundamental difference lay between cerebral and spiritual practices of meditation.

Buddha studied meditation under Hindu masters before he became "The Buddha". Each of those teacher taught a different technique. Just so, meditation, purely in and of itself...is only a "technique". You clearly misunderstand the process if you insist on feeling that to meditate in am MA environment is "praying to Buddha".

We Buddhists likewise have many different varieties of meditation. The very most basic sort is not really even "Buddhist" at all. I have even read where a group of Jesuits undertook the practice. I refer to a simple training of purely mental (aka secular) discipline. To take a particular object of focus and keep it foremost in one's awareness without ever drifting away. Usually this object of focus is "the breath". Why the breath? Because you always have it with you and it is always in the here-and-now.

So the sort of meditation generally taught in MA schools is not at all what is taught at Buddhist meditation centers. In MA schools goal is to set aside non-training-related concerns along with all other distractions whatever...to set one's focus upon developing and maintaining a proper attitude conducive to training. It is by no means praying to Buddha.

Do your praying outside of MA class just as I, a Buddhist, persue my own non-MA-related spiritual exercises outside of MA class. When either of us do otherwise we work to upset the group dynamic doing ourselves and everybody else a disfavor.

 

[Sarah]

I am the only white belt...yellow belt since yesterday...

Congrates on your promotion!

 

[Fallen Ninja]

Many have already posted some great thoughts... so I thought I would throw my in the pot too.

Meditation for me was one of those things that I had a problem with too, when I first started. The thought of kneeling in front of the Kamiza made me wonder what in the world I was doing?!

Now when I sit in front I start to go over things that I learned throughout the class. In the Bujinkan we work a lot on feeling. A certain feeling that you had that night or whatever new ideas came to mind. Then I sit there after I pass over that onto what this art means to me. The ones that sacrificed so much so that I could be a part of something I don't deserve to know. The battles that were fought using the same techniques and movement that I am learning in a class that should not be offered to someone like me.

So maybe you should not try and pray and use prayer for your own devotional time and maybe concentrate on what is being offered to you and what you are getting out of it.

As a Christian it is good to pray and you need to, but sometimes you must explore other parts of yourself and not confuse the two.

:ninja:

 

[BrandiJo]

i would think itd be ok to pray, but when we medatate its to clear our minds of everything not to talk or worship a certain god/God i supose its up to the school how its handled but i see no disrepsect in praying

 

[SAVAGE]

Seriously? 20? How long is a class?

Ok my week goes like this:

Mon 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu
6:45-8:00- Hapkido

Tues 5:00-6:00- Boxing
6:00-6:30- Weights!

Wed 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu
6:45-8:00- Hapkido

Thur 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu

Friday- 5:00-6:00- Boxing
6:00-6:30- Weights

Saturday- 2:00-6:00- Judo!
6:00-6:30- Weights

Sunday- Rest!

 

[Sarah]

Wow...hope you dont get burnt out with that schedule!

Ok my week goes like this:

Mon 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu
6:45-8:00- Hapkido

Tues 5:00-6:00- Boxing
6:00-6:30- Weights!

Wed 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu
6:45-8:00- Hapkido

Thur 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu

Friday- 5:00-6:00- Boxing
6:00-6:30- Weights

Saturday- 2:00-6:00- Judo!
6:00-6:30- Weights

Sunday- Rest!

 

[SAVAGE]

I aolologise to the board for this double post....my mentioning bhudda was a mistake..I cant find the edit post button!

I did not say that sensei had the problem...but a senior member of the federation...I did some asking around... had a few conversations, with a few other people...the man in question is part of the federation...not a karateka...never stepped on the mat in his life..but is like a parent....his problem is with catholics...because his religious affiliation are pope bashers...I have approached sensei and he says it is alright...and that it is right to give god the nod every time we feel like he needs one!

As for making the sign of the cross...well if you were catholic..it is all muscle memory...I dont think many of us make the conscious effort to make the sign...more like we bow our heads to pray and up it comes like a instinctive strike..or..block! Well that is what it is like for me!

I make no move to ever force my religion on anyone...Jesus never did that...my wife and I are of two seperate religions I a catholic..she a Jehovahs Witness...My son is to be raised a catholic (that is more a Fijian Culture thing than a religious thing..i.e you are what your father is), but I go to Jehovahs Witness meetings...and I sit there while everyone tries to convert me...I have never asked my wife to join me for mass...but she started coming without my saying a word! I suppose it is because I am the most religious of the two of us..and by my example of trying (I do emphasise trying) to lead a good christian life...if by this people come to know God in whatever form..or whatever denomination..I cannot apologise for it..but i do not go preaching at people..about hell and damnation and that my path is the only path..and if you are not with me you will burn for eternity!

This man is just trying to make himself important by imposing rules in the Dojo...well that is what sensei said anyway..I have senseis OK...so I am just going to go on doing what I do!

*bows respectfully*

 

[Sarah]

Am glad things have worked out for you

 

[SAVAGE]

Sarah,

Thank you for your congrats...also ideally that is what my week is like....but with work and family sometimes they just slip by...but I am carefull to rest alot and eat heaps of fresh fruits and vegetables..and if my body just doesnt want to train...I dont...pushing your self is one thing....trying to kill yourself is another!

I am just glad that my MA and religion are things that I dont need to seperate!

 

[Paul B]

I am also glad that things worked out. Good for you!

I have to say that's one heck of a schedule! I think you have a great attitude,though..and that is half the battle. Keep it up.:asian:

 

[SAVAGE]

Paul,

thank you as well, my grandfather (the reason I started boxing...he was a fanatic....that lead to my discovery of MA), used to say:

Your Attitude in life, determines your alltitude in life!

A good rule to live by IMHO!

 

[Sarah]

Your Attitude in life, determines your alltitude in life!

I like it

 

[SAVAGE]

I like it

It is kinda catchy!

 

[Marginal]

A senior member of the Federation pointed it out, he said that it was disrespectfull to make the sign of the cross while meditating...I dont see that I am doing anything wrong...In all other factors i am one of the best students, not in terms of I can kick butt....but I make it my point to observe ettiquette...I never talk unless we are asked if we have questions...i will attempt everything the masters say without complaint and i suck it up as much as I can...except for the days when they want to work you into the ground! I know what it means to stand before a master and the things that need to be done to show respect

I was interested in your take on this disrespect because I take the time to pray during meditation!

In general, the point of pre class meditation isn't to pray to Bhudda, your ancestors, God etc. It's more of a clear your mind so that you can focus on the pending lesson.

Regardless, I don't go to a church and demand they change their rules and traditions to suit my interpretation of their practices. That would be rude. I don't know why it's supposed to be ok the other way around.

 

[jcraigking]

OK..this got me. Was there ever anything mentioned about Mokuso being a "prayer" to Bhuddha? If so..it's time to run.

Second..mokuso/mokkyung..it's a time to clear the mind and concentrate on what is at hand.

One problem you will have a hard time getting past is different uses of the term "meditation" in the two traditions being discussed. In the Catholic Tradition, meditation is a form of prayer. We meditate on the attributes of God as a way of growing in intimate union with Him. While we do clear our minds of the distractions of the day before we pray, we do not "empty" ourselves. From the Catholic, or most other Christian traditions, understanding of the spiritual world an act of emptying ones spirit opens it to other spiritual influences (ie the demonic). THis is one of the objections that some (more fundamentalist) Christian groups have forbidden martial arts.

I am not asking for wether anyone agrees or disagrees, just trying to shed light on the difference of understanding of what meditation is.

I'd also note to the origional post that while we are accustomed to beginning and ending our prayer with the Sign of the Cross, there is no reason that we have to. If doing so is to cause disruption or scandal you'd be better to omit it, but still silently pray.


Craig

BTW: I have a BA in Catholic Theology, am working on my MA, and am a Parish Coordinator of Faith Formation. You could say I am like a Blackbelt in Theology, but I usually just tell people I'm a "Theology Geek." One thing I have been throwing around is putting together a short booklet of principles used in MA (harmony, self defense, balance...) and showing where these principles are found in the Catholic Tradition. I have had more a number of Catholics and other Christians who asked me questions about how to reconcile philosophies found in MA with our faith. If I get around to it I will post it here. That could be a resolution for me this year

 

[CuongNhuka]

If the senoir is not the head of school I would talk to him/her (other student). And then (while being very polite and repectful) him/her to explane how it is disrepectful, and try to compermize. But if that fails I would try to talk to the head of school, explain what has happened, and ask for his/her advice. If you cann't find a good comprise, either comply with the rules or consider leaving.
I'm sure the student has a good reason (or at least good intent). I don't mean to be rude, but if you cann't comprimise and would like to continue to pray before and after class it might not be a good idea to stay. Most Coung Nhu schools would probably let you do that.
Or maybe you could try to meditate with the class, but pray on your own before and after. Say at home? Just some ideas, hope it helps.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John (old Celtic prayer for those who fight and study martial arts)