Choreographed 5th dan testing?

[TKDmel]

I attended a BB test the other night at an affiliate school and was very surprised to see a 4th dan executing obviously choreographed self-defense against 3 opponents. We all know that in real life, self-defense is never staged, and can indeed be a fight for one's life. I wonder if the 4th dan was so unsure of his technique that he had to do a set routine that had been rehearsed. I know that for my next dan test, I will just ask a couple BBs that I don't even know to attack and having confidence in my skills and ability, I will fend off the attack as I would on the street. I feel this is a better representation of how well I have mastered my self-defense skills. What are your opinions?

 

[Kacey]

We do both - a choreographed routine and free sparring (1-on-1 for 1st, 2-on-1 for 2nd, 3-on-1 for 3rd, and 4-on-1 for 4th). They are intended to show different things - the choreographed routine is intended to demonstrate that the person testing can apply advanced techniques, and can choose the techniques best suited to their own abilities, while the free sparring is intended to demonstrate response to unknown/unexpected attacks. Both are, in my opinion, valuable skills to be able to demonstrate, and I have done both for all four of my BB testings.

At 5th, the requirements change to a less-specified, more self-directed set of requirements - more of the test is up to the person testing and less is specified, due to the rank of the student. I should note here that we were previously ITF affiliates, and our testing requirements come originally from them, although we have modified them somewhat by adding things they don't require.

 

[TKDmel]

We do both - a choreographed routine and free sparring (1-on-1 for 1st, 2-on-1 for 2nd, 3-on-1 for 3rd, and 4-on-1 for 4th). They are intended to show different things - the choreographed routine is intended to demonstrate that the person testing can apply advanced techniques, and can choose the techniques best suited to their own abilities, while the free sparring is intended to demonstrate response to unknown/unexpected attacks. Both are, in my opinion, valuable skills to be able to demonstrate, and I have done both for all four of my BB testings.

I agree with this approach, and that is what was surprising to me, in that there was nothing done that wasn't rehearsed as opposed to practiced.

At 5th, the requirements change to a less-specified, more self-directed set of requirements - more of the test is up to the person testing and less is specified, due to the rank of the student.

I understand that the requirements should be less specified, but it seemed that the test was more of an act for a t.v. show, that a BB test. The circus-like atmosphere also contributed to this feeling, as there were hoots, and hollers from the crowd, little children, literally running around, etc. Maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I sincerely hope my next test has a more "testing" feel to it and the actual possibility that I might fail it.

 

[Kacey]

I agree with this approach, and that is what was surprising to me, in that there was nothing done that wasn't rehearsed as opposed to practiced.

Oh. Well, in that case, I understand your concern.

I understand that the requirements should be less specified, but it seemed that the test was more of an act for a t.v. show, that a BB test. The circus-like atmosphere also contributed to this feeling, as there were hoots, and hollers from the crowd, little children, literally running around, etc. Maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I sincerely hope my next test has a more "testing" feel to it and the actual possibility that I might fail it.

Is this a problem with the testing, or with the facility? I can understand your concern in this situation, but at the same time, if that is the environment the students are accustomed to, then they will see nothing wrong with it - and it is entirely possible that only by setting a different example over a significant period of time will this change. The last BB testing I attend had quite a few spectators clapping, but very little in the way of yelling, and there were no kids present under 12 - and the only child under 14 was the child of one the women testing; the only other child (under 18) was one of my students, currently a 3rd gup, who wanted to see what she will (hopefully) be doing in 2-3 years for own BB, and was very quiet other than clapping - in fact, she was taking notes. There were quite a few cameras, but I see no problem at all with that.

 

[exile]

I should note here that we were previously ITF affiliates, and our testing requirements come originally from them, although we have modified them somewhat by adding things they don't require.

Hi Kacey—I don't want to go way off-topic or derail the discussion, but I was struck by this comment—I take it that you are no longer affiliated with ITF? Are you now affiliated with WTF (I'd suspect not, but that's just an intuition)? Or are you now an autonomous kwan?

 

[terryl965]

TKDMEL in over forty years I've seen it all so this does not surprise me

 

[TKDmel]

TKDMEL in over forty years I've seen it all so this does not surprise me

Terry, I can understand that at his level there is some latitude in how he performs his test and that there is some small amount of (dare I say) showmanship, but at one point his 18 month old grandson walked onto the mats and he stopped to pick him up, show him off to the crowd, and get this....put the baby in the GM's arms to hold him. I wish what I've told you wasn't true, but it really happened. To me it was a show of disrespect to the time honored tradition of BB testing.

 

[terryl965]

Terry, I can understand that at his level there is some latitude in how he performs his test and that there is some small amount of (dare I say) showmanship, but at one point his 18 month old grandson walked onto the mats and he stopped to pick him up, show him off to the crowd, and get this....put the baby in the GM's arms to hold him. I wish what I've told you wasn't true, but it really happened. To me it was a show of disrespect to the time honored tradition of BB testing.

Now that is bad he actually picked up the child and put it in the GM arms!!!
Well I hav eheard everything now, tosat there is no more respect

 

[TKDmel]

I wish I had a video-recorder, cause I'm sure some of the MT members will think I'm exaggerating. When he did a 6 board, spaced hand break, all the little kids ran out onto the floor to keep pieces of the broken boards like souveniers. I had to leave shortly after his show, but my schools BB candidates told me that when it was their time to test, they were rushed through their forms and self-defense so the test would conclude earlier. This just doesn't gel too well with me.

 

[Kacey]

Hi Kacey—I don't want to go way off-topic or derail the discussion, but I was struck by this comment—I take it that you are no longer affiliated with ITF? Are you now affiliated with WTF (I'd suspect not, but that's just an intuition)? Or are you now an autonomous kwan?

We still practice and teach Ch'ang H'on TKD, but we are currently not affiliated past the national level; however, some students still pay for certification through the ITF so they can compete at the international level.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Was this the actual test, or was it the public "show" for family and friends? With our black belt exams, we have days of technical and PT testing that is basically closed to the public and then we have a public performance/highlights for Mom, Dad, Grandma, Aunt Bunny, ect (Granny's get upset when they see you torture and beat up their "babies", even the adult ones). If it that type of situation, I would understand it.

 

[TKDmel]

Was this the actual test, or was it the public "show" for family and friends? With our black belt exams, we have days of technical and PT testing that is basically closed to the public and then we have a public performance/highlights for Mom, Dad, Grandma, Aunt Bunny, ect (Granny's get upset when they see you torture and beat up their "babies", even the adult ones). If it that type of situation, I would understand it.

Kwan Jang, what concerns me the most is that it was the actual test. It concerns me because in a few months, I will have to test at the same dojang along with many of his students who will have their friends, family, kids running around, etc. If there was a test beforehand that was about showing our skills, and then a pseudo-test later for show, then I could "wow" them with the best. I am seriously considering testing at the school where the GM teaches 3 hrs. away.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I was afraid that this was the situation, though hoping otherwise. I would recommend taking the exam with your original master instructor. I have three seperate 5th dans in different systems and they only mean as much (to me at least) as how hard I worked for them and how much I had to work to grow into them. My WTF and Hapkido rankings mean much less to me because they were SO much easier to earn.

 

[searcher]

When it comes to the choreography part of a test I am reminded that the CMAs use set two-person forms to work on their skills. Though they are not used exclusively. If it was only done to "show-off" for the master instructor, thwen it is truly a shame. My suggestion would be to stay away form that Dojang and test somewhere else if that is truly an option.

 

[IcemanSK]

When it comes to the choreography part of a test I am reminded that the CMAs use set two-person forms to work on their skills. Though they are not used exclusively. If it was only done to "show-off" for the master instructor, thwen it is truly a shame. My suggestion would be to stay away form that Dojang and test somewhere else if that is truly an option.

I would agree with this & others who said, "test under your originally instructor, if you're able."

Best wishes.

 

[TKDmel]

I would agree with this & others who said, "test under your originally instructor, if you're able."

Best wishes.

I understand that a BB test at any level is stressful and an indicator of how well someone can perform under such testing conditions, but to have to put up with the circus atmospher would be untolerable, so I am contacting my old master and testing there. Thanks to everyone who replied to this post.

 

[TKDmel]

I was afraid that this was the situation, though hoping otherwise. I would recommend taking the exam with your original master instructor. I have three seperate 5th dans in different systems and they only mean as much (to me at least) as how hard I worked for them and how much I had to work to grow into them. My WTF and Hapkido rankings mean much less to me because they were SO much easier to earn.

Just as an update, I asked my GM if I could test with him at his main school 3 hrs. away and he said "no". I am now faced with a dilemma. I have the choice of testing at the local school and having to prepare myself for, the circus atmosphere test, or finding some other master who will test me. I will always have my 1st dan KKW certificate that will allow me to compete in any local, regional or national level tournament, so not recieving a KKW certification for second dan and up, would make it no less valid or valued than any BB test not certified by the KKW. My last choice is to not test at all. Its been 15 yrs. since I became a BB. During those years, I have experienced other schools and studied under other masters. I have learned from others and taught others as well. I have always tried to uphold the traditions I have been taught and pass on my knowledge to others. One thing I have learned along the way, is I don't need stripes or certificates to validate who I am or what I can do. I show it every class, and everyday just the way I am...a Black Belt.

This is a descision I will not take lightly to be sure. I have a few months to figure it all out. I'll keep you all posted.

 

[terryl965]

TKDMEL shoot me a pm and we can talk about your problem, if you would like to. There maybe a way to work this all out.
Terry

 

[Kacey]

Just as an update, I asked my GM if I could test with him at his main school 3 hrs. away and he said "no". I am now faced with a dilemma. I have the choice of testing at the local school and having to prepare myself for, the circus atmosphere test, or finding some other master who will test me. I will always have my 1st dan KKW certificate that will allow me to compete in any local, regional or national level tournament, so not recieving a KKW certification for second dan and up, would make it no less valid or valued than any BB test not certified by the KKW. My last choice is to not test at all. Its been 15 yrs. since I became a BB. During those years, I have experienced other schools and studied under other masters. I have learned from others and taught others as well. I have always tried to uphold the traditions I have been taught and pass on my knowledge to others. One thing I have learned along the way, is I don't need stripes or certificates to validate who I am or what I can do. I show it every class, and everyday just the way I am...a Black Belt.

This is a descision I will not take lightly to be sure. I have a few months to figure it all out. I'll keep you all posted.

If I may ask - did he give you a reason? Regardless, remember that you get out of training and testing what you put into it - so "circus atmosphere" notwithstanding, you can still participate in a valid test for yourself - you will know whether the test was legitimate, and in the end, isn't that what matters?