chinese styles and imitations

[xiongnu_lohon]

I am not convinced that san soo is a chinese martial art.

A lot has been said over here.

At this point I would put san soo in the same category as "shou shu" - not a chinese martial art.

I'm not trying to cause trouble but the truth matters. Fighting ability is never proof that your art is chinese. You cannot ever claim to be a legitimate cma teacher simply because you are a scrapper/streetfighter.

I'm open to discussion if there are facts to be considered.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am curious as to what you call Sanda/Sanshou?

Edit:

I just finished reading the linked article and I do not put a whole lot in it as to San Soo being a Chinese martial art or not.

 

[xiongnu_lohon]

None of the posts at KFO were written by me, but the guy talking about the "history" of san soo is a major player in san da. He has a school in NYC.

The point of the link( discussion at KFO ) is basically just to reiterate what is already known about "san soo": it appears to be another case where kenpo people are claiming to know cma.

The way to learn fighting is to combine any CMA with san da. That's why we don't need a so-called "streetfighting" art because such an art would not produce athletes on the level of san da players anyway. San da places a lot of emphasis on clinch-type throws from shuai jiao so again there's no need for "streetfighters" to interpret shuai jiao( or any subset of it like kuai jiao/fast-wrestling ).

Basically this relates to the point I made about modern wushu in another thread. Modern wushu teaches the athleticism necessary to learn any real cma that is not wing chun. Then people can learn and excel in traditional. They learn the theory of the traditional style and they want to get a feel for it. What do they do? they do some two-man work at the guan where they train and they also learn some san da. It's all good.

What we don't need is a group of so-called streetfighters peddling kenpo while claiming that their status as scrappers( which will never equal real san da training anyway ) means they are doing cma. Since san da is the key to solving all problems with application of cma in real-time contexts it therefore follows imo that "san soo" is totally unnecessary. Beyond that I think there is real reason to believe that "san soo" really is just kenpo. I think some of the discussion at the link I posted gets into that.

Basically it gets back to this: modern wushu helps traditional by weeding out the fatties and the never-gonna-bes while san da solves any & all problems of applying any traditional cma. Because people have a sport context to work on things. The lesson of Kano and his art Judo was that sport builds better athletes. It was true in jma and san da is the answer for cma.

San Da is a sport. There's no groundfighting though.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I remember your wushu statement and I will repeat my answer Wushu is no more a prerequisite to Traditional Chinese Martial Arts than Gymnastics is to boxing. And Wushu will no more enhance traditional Chinese Martial arts than Gymnastics will boxing. If you are looking to do a post about Imitations of Chinese Styles you best look to Contemporary Wushu since is exactly that, and Imitation of Traditional Chinese Martial arts styles.

And for clarification purposes I assume you are talking Contemporary Wushu as it is taught in Chinese Physical Education colleges.

If this is true what you say about wushu maybe you can explain to me how that teaches you anything as it related to Real Traditional Chinese Martial Arts like Bafaquan, Baguazhang, Bajiquan, Bak Mei, Black Tiger, Chaquan, Choy Lay Fut, Dragon Kung Fu, Eagle Claw, Emeiquan, Fanziquan, Fujian White Crane, Houquan, Huaquan, Lau Gar, Leopard, Liuhe Bafa, Luohan Quan, Mei Hua Quan, Nanquan, Northern Praying Mantis, Paochui, Piguaquan, Shaolin Nam Pai Chuan, Shaolin Quan, Shuai Jiao, Southern Praying Mantis, Taijiquan, Tantui, Tien Shan Pai, Tongbeiquan, Wudangquan, Xingyiquan, Yingzhaoquan, Yiquan to name a few.

Sanda is a sport with no real ground fighting!? that is interesting I disagree, my sifu would disagree as would the majority of Chinese police and Chinese military.

Do you have any idea of where Sanda came form, why it was developed or its history because your post pretty much is saying you do not but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and maybe I have misunderstood what you are trying to say.

And lastly Sanda was not necessary nor has it ever been necessary to make Traditional Chinese Martial Arts effective.

 

[xiongnu_lohon]

I remember your wushu statement and I will repeat my answer Wushu is no more a prerequisite to Traditional Chinese Martial Arts than Gymnastics is to boxing. And Wushu will no more enhance traditional Chinese Martial arts than Gymnastics will boxing. If you are looking to do a post about Imitations of Chinese Styles you best look to Contemporary Wushu since is exactly that, and Imitation of Traditional Chinese Martial arts styles.

And for clarification purposes I assume you are talking Contemporary Wushu as it is taught in Chinese Physical Education colleges.

If this is true what you say about wushu maybe you can explain to me how that teaches you anything as it related to Real Traditional Chinese Martial Arts like Bafaquan, Baguazhang, Bajiquan, Bak Mei, Black Tiger, Chaquan, Choy Lay Fut, Dragon Kung Fu, Eagle Claw, Emeiquan, Fanziquan, Fujian White Crane, Houquan, Huaquan, Lau Gar, Leopard, Liuhe Bafa, Luohan Quan, Mei Hua Quan, Nanquan, Northern Praying Mantis, Paochui, Piguaquan, Shaolin Nam Pai Chuan, Shaolin Quan, Shuai Jiao, Southern Praying Mantis, Taijiquan, Tantui, Tien Shan Pai, Tongbeiquan, Wudangquan, Xingyiquan, Yingzhaoquan, Yiquan to name a few.

Sanda is a sport with no real ground fighting!? that is interesting I disagree, my sifu would disagree as would the majority of Chinese police and Chinese military.

Do you have any idea of where Sanda came form, why it was developed or its history because your post pretty much is saying you do not but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and maybe I have misunderstood what you are trying to say.

And lastly Sanda was not necessary nor has it ever been necessary to make Traditional Chinese Martial Arts effective.

I'm referring to the sport of san da, not the military version. That's why I say there is no groundfighting. Modern wushu was created by the prc to provide a framework for all wushu training. They succeeded. It's irrelevant whether modern wushu teaches the specifics of any style like mantis, white crane, mizong etc. The bottom line is this - any modern wushu player would outperform any traditional person in whatever traditional style provided that said modern wushu player is introduced to the theory & principles of the art. In other words they couldn't learn a traditional style overnight but they could learn it much faster that someone who didn't go through the crucible of modern wushu training. I'm glad you bring up gymnastics, that's a great alternative if you can't get into modern wushu at a young age. Gymnastics also will build the athletic attributes necessary to dominate in traditional styles.

Modern wushu is the ideal foundation for traditional wushu because it builds the flexibility & athleticism necessary to learn traditional styles very quickly. That's why modern wushu players often "retire" into a traditional style which they learn with ease. Lots of modern wushu people also do traditional, that's common knowledge.

San Da was created by the prc to provide a kind of sparring framework for cma. Yes it was done for the military but the bernefits apply in a sport context as well.

San da( as a sport ) provides the ideal framework for sparring in cma. You can use san da practice as a laboratory to try out things from your sequences in cma. San da people have no problem crossing over into actual fighting. Whether someone could learn to fight without it is irrelevant. San Da gives people the environment they need to succeed. Sport produces better athletes. Period. San Da( as a sport ) is the answer for people who want to learn fighting. There is nothing in san da that prevents you from practicing your traditional techniques. Yes the gloves inhibit certain movements but the main thing is that the sport can help you build your athleticism, timing, and ability to maneuver in an unstructured/non-cooperative environment. Then you can go back and drill your traditional methods as well. I have confidence that people in sport san da who also possess traditional cma will do a better job of applying their traditional methods as a result of having participated in the san da sport. I just assume you agree with that. If not then you're taking a position that classical methods without any mma/san da exposure can defeat modern mma-trained athletes. That's not realistic.

This thread is entirely appropriate because there is significant evidence that "san soo" is really just a scam created by kenpo people. That's the consensus of a lot of cma people - in other words it's an imitation of chinese martial arts. And it doesn't even use chinese methods - it uses kenpo. Wushu is obviously not traditional but it does use many of the same basic elements: stances, punches, and kicks. There is a lot that is missing in modern wushu if one is looking to learn classical fighting methods. But the skills taught in modern wushu make it very easy to learn traditional styles. Again modern wushu weeds out the fatties and the never-gonna-be types.

Again I return to the original point of this thread: there is substantial evidence that "san soo" is fake. And developments in the prc( creation of sport san da ) have made it irrelevant. Sport san da has the shuai jiao methods and really focuses on the kuai-jiao/fast-wrestling stuff.

 

[Rabu]

I find articles by Chinese Martial Arts scholars to be very enlightening.

I would suggest you read articles by Stanley Henning, Brian Kennedy, Elizabeth Guo, Ma Ming Da and people who are connected to them.

As for 'who gots the reels kungs foo' question which comes up constantly, it would appear to be a hard question to answer concisely.

If you wait 20 years, 30 years, 40 years...the arts being taught today will have significantly changed and new arts will have emerged.

In time the 'fake' arts will be the 'legitimate old timers' and people in them will critique the newcomers through their very own rose colored glasses.

Chinese martial arts history is spotty and hard to follow before the mid to late 1800's.

To a great extent that responsibility for 'taking care of the house' falls on our own shoulders as practitioners. Xue Sheng had an excellent post about this subject not too long ago.

For the modern practitioner the questions of effectiveness and honesty are probably the best guides.

KFSS may have some kind of spotty origin, but really, compare it to 'magic dwarves' and 'floating drunken fairies on a cloud' and you realize kettle seems to be calling the pot black.

Kenpo/Kempo is an interesting art. I spent my time in it and certainly dont pretend that it was 'ancient Chinese' martial arts. The last 12 years have been CMA. I gladly talk about that.

Best regards and luck in whatever it is you are trying to accomplish,

Rob

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm referring to the sport of san da, not the military version. That's why I say there is no groundfighting. Modern wushu was created by the prc to provide a framework for all wushu training. They succeeded. It's irrelevant whether modern wushu teaches the specifics of any style like mantis, white crane, mizong etc. The bottom line is this - any modern wushu player would outperform any traditional person in whatever traditional style provided that said modern wushu player is introduced to the theory & principles of the art.

I did not ask for specifics I asked how it would apply to various arts and I am also curious as to why it does not apply to Wing Chun. Which leads me to ask how it would or why it would to apply to any art I previously listed. But to simplify lets stick to some of the traditional styles I have trained. How would it help or apply or give someone a leg up on training Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua?

Contemporary (I am assuming that is what you are calling modern) Wushu teaches the hollow shell of many TCMA styles and it also teaches additional unnecessary acrobatics. I do not doubt their physical ability it is rather impressive but it does in some cases train contrary to what is needed to train TCMA. You are actually closer to TCMA in Chinese Opera Kung fu than Contemporary Wushu.

In other words they couldn't learn a traditional style overnight but they could learn it much faster that someone who didn't go through the crucible of modern wushu training. I'm glad you bring up gymnastics, that's a great alternative if you can't get into modern wushu at a young age. Gymnastics also will build the athletic attributes necessary to dominate in traditional styles. .

As would modern dance, ballet dancing and jazz dancing or any type of dancing. But I do not agree that a Wushu practitioner could learn it much faster. There are bad habits and over exaggerations of the forms taught in Modern Wushu. And the is doubly true if you go from Wushu to an internal CMA style

Modern wushu is the ideal foundation for traditional wushu because it builds the flexibility & athleticism necessary to learn traditional styles very quickly. That's why modern wushu players often "retire" into a traditional style which they learn with ease. Lots of modern wushu people also do traditional, that's common knowledge.

And many do it badly but still teach. A very good friend of mine was a member of the Guangzhou Opera company many years ago and a friend of theirs decided to come to NYC to teach martial arts. My friend asked him how he could do that because he didn't know martial arts he knew stage martial arts. I do not know what came of that but I have no doubt that if he came and opened a school he would have made good money off of a lot of Westerners. But you see, although I feel Chinese opera Kung Fu is closer to Traditional Kung Fu than Contemporary Wushu, in Chinese Opera Kung fu they are trained to miss. They are in real good shape and could probably cross over to TCMA easier than a newb or a dancer or a Contemporary Wushu person but they are still trained to miss and after years of training that it is hard to overcome. Missing is not an issue with my Taiji Sifu or my Sanda Sifu because they don't miss as it can be said of any well trained Traditional Martial Artist

San Da was created by the prc to provide a kind of sparring framework for cma. Yes it was done for the military but the bernefits apply in a sport context as well.

Actually no it was created in response to their soldiers poor performance in hand to hand combat, sports came later and the sports version has much removed

San da( as a sport ) provides the ideal framework for sparring in cma. You can use san da practice as a laboratory to try out things from your sequences in cma. San da people have no problem crossing over into actual fighting. Whether someone could learn to fight without it is irrelevant. San Da gives people the environment they need to succeed. Sport produces better athletes. Period. San Da( as a sport ) is the answer for people who want to learn fighting. There is nothing in san da that prevents you from practicing your traditional techniques. Yes the gloves inhibit certain movements but the main thing is that the sport can help you build your athleticism, timing, and ability to maneuver in an unstructured/non-cooperative environment. Then you can go back and drill your traditional methods as well. I have confidence that people in sport san da who also possess traditional cma will do a better job of applying their traditional methods as a result of having participated in the san da sport. I just assume you agree with that. If not then you're taking a position that classical methods without any mma/san da exposure can defeat modern mma-trained athletes. That's not realistic.

This thread is entirely appropriate because there is significant evidence that "san soo" is really just a scam created by kenpo people. That's the consensus of a lot of cma people - in other words it's an imitation of chinese martial arts. And it doesn't even use chinese methods - it uses kenpo. Wushu is obviously not traditional but it does use many of the same basic elements: stances, punches, and kicks. There is a lot that is missing in modern wushu if one is looking to learn classical fighting methods. But the skills taught in modern wushu make it very easy to learn traditional styles. Again modern wushu weeds out the fatties and the never-gonna-be types.

Again I return to the original point of this thread: there is substantial evidence that "san soo" is fake. And developments in the prc( creation of sport san da ) have made it irrelevant. Sport san da has the shuai jiao methods and really focuses on the kuai-jiao/fast-wrestling stuff.

OK to save time and me picking your post apart line by line it appears that your experience is with Wushu and sports Sanda with little other background. But I am not even sure of that since you have nothing listed in your profile.

I have great confidence in sports Sanda fighters to be able to fight inside and outside of the ring but they are not at the level of a non-sports sanda person when it comes to fighting ,if for no other reason than the view of the opponent. Sport wants to win by points or knockout if necessary but they have no problem with having to fight that person again and there goal is not to disable their opponent. Non-sports sanda holds no such concern for the opponent. Non-sports sanda is concerned with disabling the opponent by any means possible. Bottom-line non-sports sanda is the quickest way to learn how to hurt somebody real real bad.

I certainly do not agree with you about Contemporary Wushu and I will tell you my Taiji Sifu (over 50 years Taiji) calls it Performance art and gymnastics but not martial arts. My Sanda (Police/Military) Sifu (about 30 years Sanda) is not as kind he refers to anyone that comes from Wushu or Wushu/Sanda from one of the Chinese Physical education colleges as Huaquan (flower fist) “pretty to look at but a flower does you no good in a fight”. Both are born raised and trained in their styles in China.

Now my first CMA Sifu also from China was pretty much Wushu and a graduate of a Wushu academy and his wife was on the national team. My first exposure to CMA was Wushu in the form of competition Taiji forms and Shaolin Long Fist and I can tell you from experience it was fun but it got in the way of my training of Traditional CMA styles like Hebei Xingyiquan and Taiji (Chen and Yang). My first Sifu was highly skilled at Wushu, he did the most amazing Northern mantis form I have ever seen. But after training push hands with my Yang Sifu for about a year I found that I could beat my Wushu Sifu rather easily in push hands, which of course caused him to never do push hands with me again and caused me to leave and never go back (it was a contributing factor not the whole reason). My first Sifu was also trained in 2 non-Wushu forms one was an Old Chen form that he taught only once because the training was to hard and he could make more money training Wushu and the other was Tong bei which he never taught and I can only speculate it was for the same reason he only taught the Chen form once. He did not know entire systems of either just the one Chen form and a couple Tong Bei forms. But since I could beat him in push hands and I have yet to defeat my Yang style Sifu in push hands I am not sure you theory about Wushu giving you a jump pans out. Also since I have yet to defeat my Sanda Sifu (Police/Military) again I am not sure your theory holds. Also the fact that my first Sifu STOPPED teaching Chen because the training was to hard again I am not sure your theory holds. His Wushu classes were always full to the brim and the Chen class started with 60 people in 2 classes but before it was over there were only 6 of us left.

I am not sure what your agenda is here but attacking a style based on a post on another page is in my opinion just trying to start trouble. Do real research and you will get a better view. And I still hold to if you want a good imitaion of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts you are better looking to Contemporary Wushu.

And you have made a comment more than once about street fighting… what the heck do you think TCMA was designed for…dancing? It was made to fight, on battle fields and in streets.

 

[xiongnu_lohon]

I did not ask for specifics I asked how it would apply to various arts and I am also curious as to why it does not apply to Wing Chun. Which leads me to ask how it would or why it would to apply to any art I previously listed. But to simplify lets stick to some of the traditional styles I have trained. How would it help or apply or give someone a leg up on training Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua?

Contemporary (I am assuming that is what you are calling modern) Wushu teaches the hollow shell of many TCMA styles and it also teaches additional unnecessary acrobatics. I do not doubt their physical ability it is rather impressive but it does in some cases train contrary to what is needed to train TCMA. You are actually closer to TCMA in Chinese Opera Kung fu than Contemporary Wushu.



As would modern dance, ballet dancing and jazz dancing or any type of dancing. But I do not agree that a Wushu practitioner could learn it much faster. There are bad habits and over exaggerations of the forms taught in Modern Wushu. And the is doubly true if you go from Wushu to an internal CMA style



And many do it badly but still teach. A very good friend of mine was a member of the Guangzhou Opera company many years ago and a friend of theirs decided to come to NYC to teach martial arts. My friend asked him how he could do that because he didn't know martial arts he knew stage martial arts. I do not know what came of that but I have no doubt that if he came and opened a school he would have made good money off of a lot of Westerners. But you see, although I feel Chinese opera Kung Fu is closer to Traditional Kung Fu than Contemporary Wushu, in Chinese Opera Kung fu they are trained to miss. They are in real good shape and could probably cross over to TCMA easier than a newb or a dancer or a Contemporary Wushu person but they are still trained to miss and after years of training that it is hard to overcome. Missing is not an issue with my Taiji Sifu or my Sanda Sifu because they don't miss as it can be said of any well trained Traditional Martial Artist



Actually no it was created in response to their soldiers poor performance in hand to hand combat, sports came later and the sports version has much removed



OK to save time and me picking your post apart line by line it appears that your experience is with Wushu and sports Sanda with little other background. But I am not even sure of that since you have nothing listed in your profile.

I have great confidence in sports Sanda fighters to be able to fight inside and outside of the ring but they are not at the level of a non-sports sanda person when it comes to fighting ,if for no other reason than the view of the opponent. Sport wants to win by points or knockout if necessary but they have no problem with having to fight that person again and there goal is not to disable their opponent. Non-sports sanda holds no such concern for the opponent. Non-sports sanda is concerned with disabling the opponent by any means possible. Bottom-line non-sports sanda is the quickest way to learn how to hurt somebody real real bad.

I certainly do not agree with you about Contemporary Wushu and I will tell you my Taiji Sifu (over 50 years Taiji) calls it Performance art and gymnastics but not martial arts. My Sanda (Police/Military) Sifu (about 30 years Sanda) is not as kind he refers to anyone that comes from Wushu or Wushu/Sanda from one of the Chinese Physical education colleges as Huaquan (flower fist) “pretty to look at but a flower does you no good in a fight”. Both are born raised and trained in their styles in China.

Now my first CMA Sifu also from China was pretty much Wushu and a graduate of a Wushu academy and his wife was on the national team. My first exposure to CMA was Wushu in the form of competition Taiji forms and Shaolin Long Fist and I can tell you from experience it was fun but it got in the way of my training of Traditional CMA styles like Hebei Xingyiquan and Taiji (Chen and Yang). My first Sifu was highly skilled at Wushu, he did the most amazing Northern mantis form I have ever seen. But after training push hands with my Yang Sifu for about a year I found that I could beat my Wushu Sifu rather easily in push hands, which of course caused him to never do push hands with me again and caused me to leave and never go back (it was a contributing factor not the whole reason). My first Sifu was also trained in 2 non-Wushu forms one was an Old Chen form that he taught only once because the training was to hard and he could make more money training Wushu and the other was Tong bei which he never taught and I can only speculate it was for the same reason he only taught the Chen form once. He did not know entire systems of either just the one Chen form and a couple Tong Bei forms. But since I could beat him in push hands and I have yet to defeat my Yang style Sifu in push hands I am not sure you theory about Wushu giving you a jump pans out. Also since I have yet to defeat my Sanda Sifu (Police/Military) again I am not sure your theory holds. Also the fact that my first Sifu STOPPED teaching Chen because the training was to hard again I am not sure your theory holds. His Wushu classes were always full to the brim and the Chen class started with 60 people in 2 classes but before it was over there were only 6 of us left.

I am not sure what your agenda is here but attacking a style based on a post on another page is in my opinion just trying to start trouble. Do real research and you will get a better view. And I still hold to if you want a good imitaion of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts you are better looking to Contemporary Wushu.

And you have made a comment more than once about street fighting… what the heck do you think TCMA was designed for…dancing? It was made to fight, on battle fields and in streets.

My background includes traditional and modern cma - not san da. My focus is traditional northern cma supplemented by regular classes in modern wushu. I don't like to give out a lot of information on the internet.

As for my agenda it is simply to point out the truth. You obviously didn't read that page too closely so I will post the relevant links right here for you:
one
two
three

And as was mentioned over on that other page: if you try the excuse of "well it was just krotty uniform 'cuz no one knew about traditional wushu" then you are using the "shaolin-do" excuse. Suppose I was a kenpo karate person that you knew in your personal life. Suppose you lost touch with me for a year. After a year you see that I'm teaching a cma that no one has ever heard of with moves that look an awful lot like the kenpo I did. It's only been a year so it's not too likely I mastered a traditional cma in that amount of time. When you ask about the history of my art you find that there is none and furthermore there is no lineage. What would you think? All these points are brought up over at that other page.

There is no controversy. "San soo" is fake made-up kenpo it is NOT a chinese martial art and will not be accepted as such in 30-40 years.

You can't pick apart my posts, you never could. Thanks for trying. And to further make my point I'll add that I've been doing qigong in a big way(under several high-level teachers) since 1997. I started northern shaolin at age 11. I quit at 17 when I moved and I went back to traditional northern cma in the year 2000. Since 01 I have also been doing modern wushu.

I find it funny that you think a non-sport style like military san da could ever beat an accomplished sport competitor. Maybe we could make an exception here because the military art has groundfighting while the sport does not. But the idea that the will to hurt someone even matters is a sad pathetic joke that was debunked in the early UFCs. I'll take a sport BJJ player against any "eye-gouge trained" traditionalist every single time. That's why judo beat jujitsu a long time ago in japan. Ju-jitsu had all the deadly moves. The problem was it didn't have the athletes.

Again I don't care that traditional cma was designed for fighting. I love how you toss out these meaningless statements to support your arguments. Wow I'm shocked. I didn't know that. Again - San Da is what you do if you want to apply your traditional cma in fighting if you want to be able to do it against todays elite athletes. If all you want to do is beat up some guy on a corner who doesn't train hard that you're right you don't need it. People back in the day including my sifu's teachers could apply their stuff but there's no way they could face skiilled mma competitors of today without doing san da or some type of mma first. That's not an insult to them it's just the way things are.

BTW I know how military san da was developed after the chinese got smacked down in h2h during the border war with the soviets in the late 60s or so. Everyone knows that. I'm not even a san da competitor and I know that.

Again in terms of fighting modern(sport) wushu is dancing. But the basics of stances and especially kicks are all there. And my experience is that modern wushu coaches know a LOT more about efficient training methods( plyometrics etc.) than traditional people. Of course they don't know qigong but that can be learned.

 

[Flying Crane]

Modern wushu is the ideal foundation for traditional wushu because it builds the flexibility & athleticism necessary to learn traditional styles very quickly.

no, you are dead wrong. Modern wushu teaches bad habits that look better for performance, but undermine and weaken the basics that make traditional wushu strong. Habits developed in training Modern Wushu can destroy what is built in Traditional Wushu.

That's why modern wushu players often "retire" into a traditional style which they learn with ease.

um, no, modern wushu players retire because they get injured doing all that fancy stuff that is bad for you. Then they coach the next generation of performers.

Lots of modern wushu people also do traditional, that's common knowledge.

actually, it's the other way around. Lots of traditional wushu people also do modern wushu. These people got their foundation in the traditional arts, before getting into Modern Wushu to satisfy that competition bug. But these people know the difference between the two, and they will not pretend that Modern Wushu builds a foundation for the traditional arts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My background includes traditional and modern cma - not san da. My focus is traditional northern cma supplemented by regular classes in modern wushu. I don't like to give out a lot of information on the internet.

OK Here we go I have trained mostly Traditional Yang style Taijiquan (13 years) and I also train Police/Military Sanda (about a year) and I have trained about 2 years each (but no longer train) Chen style Taijiquan and Hebei Xingyiquan. I have training in JMA and KMA prior to that for a total of a bit over 30 years. Your turn, exactly what northern styles have you trained and for how long? Without this I see no reason to continue any discussion with you nor take any of this post seriously.

As for my agenda it is simply to point out the truth. You obviously didn't read that page too closely so I will post the relevant links right here for you:
one
two
three

And as was mentioned over on that other page: if you try the excuse of "well it was just krotty uniform 'cuz no one knew about traditional wushu" then you are using the "shaolin-do" excuse. Suppose I was a kenpo karate person that you knew in your personal life. Suppose you lost touch with me for a year. After a year you see that I'm teaching a cma that no one has ever heard of with moves that look an awful lot like the kenpo I did. It's only been a year so it's not too likely I mastered a traditional cma in that amount of time. When you ask about the history of my art you find that there is none and furthermore there is no lineage. What would you think? All these points are brought up over at that other page.

What the hell are you talking about? You are making more than a few rather way off assumptions about me here, try reading some of my past posts you may get the picture there. And what on earth does uniform have to do with anything. Put a Chinese MA uniform on someone that does TKD does not make it Chinese it makes it TKD in a Chinese outfit.

And what do I or anyone else know about the back grounds of anyone on the other page. Quote a verifiable source and I would have an easier time of believing it.

There is no controversy. "San soo" is fake made-up kenpo it is NOT a chinese martial art and will not be accepted as such in 30-40 years.

I never made any comment about San soo either way now have I? As to Kempo/Kenpo of course it is not a Chinese MA its origins come from China but it is not Chinese.

You can't pick apart my posts, you never could. Thanks for trying. And to further make my point I'll add that I've been doing qigong in a big way(under several high-level teachers) since 1997. I started northern shaolin at age 11. I quit at 17 when I moved and I went back to traditional northern cma in the year 2000. Since 01 I have also been doing modern wushu.

I really don’t need to pick apart your posts you are doing a good job of that all by yourself.

Your Qigong training, not sure why you threw that in but ok Who were your high level teachers? Who were their teachers? And what Style or Styles of Qigong do you train? I have trained Taoist Qigong and some Tibetan but I no longer train either I train only the Qigong that applies to my CMA styles with the exception of Ba Duan Gin which I have trained for years

I find it funny that you think a non-sport style like military san da could ever beat an accomplished sport competitor. Maybe we could make an exception here because the military art has groundfighting while the sport does not. But the idea that the will to hurt someone even matters is a sad pathetic joke that was debunked in the early UFCs. I'll take a sport BJJ player against any "eye-gouge trained" traditionalist every single time. That's why judo beat jujitsu a long time ago in japan. Ju-jitsu had all the deadly moves. The problem was it didn't have the athletes.

Okie dokie now it makes sense a MMA vs. TMA thingy again or a Sport vs. traditional. And for some reason you are big on Wushu over real live TCMA as well. I am guessing it is your main stay of training in CMA.

You honestly believe that a person trained in the Chinese Military in Sanda would not have a chance against a sports MAist that is pretty funny.

I love this statement used by many as justification (this is a meaningless statement you have made here by the way)

"eye-gouge trained"

Let me ask you how often in sports Sanda or any sports MA is it ok to step on someone’s knee and break it. It is trained in Police/Military Sanda. Sports Sanda has all of the Qinna removed and many of the more painful Shuaijiao moves that are in Police/Military Sanda and as you have already stated ground fighting is pretty much gone to. You really need to read up on Police/Military Sanda.

Again I don't care that traditional cma was designed for fighting. I love how you toss out these meaningless statements to support your arguments. Wow I'm shocked. I didn't know that. Again - San Da is what you do if you want to apply your traditional cma in fighting if you want to be able to do it against todays elite athletes. If all you want to do is beat up some guy on a corner who doesn't train hard that you're right you don't need it. People back in the day including my sifu's teachers could apply their stuff but there's no way they could face skiilled mma competitors of today without doing san da or some type of mma first. That's not an insult to them it's just the way things are.

I have said time and time again in multiple posts on MT that Sports MAist train VERY hard and if a Traditional MAist trained equally as hard they would be equally as effective but sadly most traditional maist do not train as hard as sports MAist.

And if you are looking for meaningless statements you might want to start reading your own posts. A few contradictory ones as well but I will get to that in a minute.

BTW I know how military san da was developed after the chinese got smacked down in h2h during the border war with the soviets in the late 60s or so. Everyone knows that. I'm not even a san da competitor and I know that.

Then why have you give at least 2 different origins already. The second one is right by the way.

Again in terms of fighting modern(sport) wushu is dancing. But the basics of stances and especially kicks are all there. And my experience is that modern wushu coaches know a LOT more about efficient training methods( plyometrics etc.) than traditional people. Of course they don't know qigong but that can be learned.

As to the basic kicks sure a kick is pretty much a kick but the focus is lacking in Wushu as to stances nope sorry they are only there externally there is no internal and they tend to be hollow. And of course modern Wushu coaches know more about polymeric, they have to they do not generally know traditional training methods which if you had actually done you would know are rather hard which is why more go for Wushu that Traditional.

And you still have not answered any of my questions and I find this rather interesting.

You said in another post that Wushu was for all intensive purposes an undergraduate program for TCMA which is incorrect you said in the post initially

Modern wushu teaches the athleticism necessary to learn any real cma that is not wing chun

And I have asked why you said this and why Wing Chun was different in your opinion.

You now say

wushu is dancing

OK then it is equally as helpful at learning TCMA as is Ballet Dancing. Or is it as you previously said

necessary to learn any real cma

I would not say Ballet was necessary, it could help, there is a lot of strength and flexibility needed for Ballet but I would not say it is necessary

 

[xiongnu_lohon]

OK Here we go I have trained mostly Traditional Yang style Taijiquan (13 years) and I also train Police/Military Sanda (about a year) and I have trained about 2 years each (but no longer train) Chen style Taijiquan and Hebei Xingyiquan. I have training in JMA and KMA prior to that for a total of a bit over 30 years. Your turn, exactly what northern styles have you trained and for how long? Without this I see no reason to continue any discussion with you nor take any of this post seriously.



What the hell are you talking about? You are making more than a few rather way off assumptions about me here, try reading some of my past posts you may get the picture there. And what on earth does uniform have to do with anything. Put a Chinese MA uniform on someone that does TKD does not make it Chinese it makes it TKD in a Chinese outfit.

And what do I or anyone else know about the back grounds of anyone on the other page. Quote a verifiable source and I would have an easier time of believing it.



I never made any comment about San soo either way now have I? As to Kempo/Kenpo of course it is not a Chinese MA its origins come from China but it is not Chinese.



I really don’t need to pick apart your posts you are doing a good job of that all by yourself.

Your Qigong training, not sure why you threw that in but ok Who were your high level teachers? Who were their teachers? And what Style or Styles of Qigong do you train? I have trained Taoist Qigong and some Tibetan but I no longer train either I train only the Qigong that applies to my CMA styles with the exception of Ba Duan Gin which I have trained for years



Okie dokie now it makes sense a MMA vs. TMA thingy again or a Sport vs. traditional. And for some reason you are big on Wushu over real live TCMA as well. I am guessing it is your main stay of training in CMA.

You honestly believe that a person trained in the Chinese Military in Sanda would not have a chance against a sports MAist that is pretty funny.

I love this statement used by many as justification (this is a meaningless statement you have made here by the way)



Let me ask you how often in sports Sanda or any sports MA is it ok to step on someone’s knee and break it. It is trained in Police/Military Sanda. Sports Sanda has all of the Qinna removed and many of the more painful Shuaijiao moves that are in Police/Military Sanda and as you have already stated ground fighting is pretty much gone to. You really need to read up on Police/Military Sanda.



I have said time and time again in multiple posts on MT that Sports MAist train VERY hard and if a Traditional MAist trained equally as hard they would be equally as effective but sadly most traditional maist do not train as hard as sports MAist.

And if you are looking for meaningless statements you might want to start reading your own posts. A few contradictory ones as well but I will get to that in a minute.



Then why have you give at least 2 different origins already. The second one is right by the way.



As to the basic kicks sure a kick is pretty much a kick but the focus is lacking in Wushu as to stances nope sorry they are only there externally there is no internal and they tend to be hollow. And of course modern Wushu coaches know more about polymeric, they have to they do not generally know traditional training methods which if you had actually done you would know are rather hard which is why more go for Wushu that Traditional.

And you still have not answered any of my questions and I find this rather interesting.

You said in another post that Wushu was for all intensive purposes an undergraduate program for TCMA which is incorrect you said in the post initially



And I have asked why you said this and why Wing Chun was different in your opinion.

You now say



OK then it is equally as helpful at learning TCMA as is Ballet Dancing. Or is it as you previously said

I would not say Ballet was necessary, it could help, there is a lot of strength and flexibility needed for Ballet but I would not say it is necessary

I'm not interested in discussing what style I practice or who my former & current qigong teachers are. I'm a private person. If you don't want to continue the discussion then don't.

As far as I know it is really the consensus in the cma community that san soo is just kenpo. Could that be wrong? Yes, it could but given the facts I would say the burden is on the san soo folks.

You like to ask a lot of questions about everything I write. Let me try to answer some. Of course wing chun is different because from what I know they don't use all the stances. So I don't think modern wushu would help them much. I think it's better to amend my original statements and say I think modern wushu is good for the wai jia type arts. I don't know enough about the neijia stuff( xingyi, taiji, liu ho pa fa, pigua, baji, bagua, tongbei etc.). Actually I think tongbei is neijia but I don't actually know. But you get the idea.

Modern wushu helped me a lot. It made my stances a lot better and the balances really helped me even though there are no balances in any traditional sets I know. I don't take it too seriously the main thing I like is the warm-ups, the stances, the balances, and the kicks.

I spoke about san da without thinking. When I said it created to give a framework for cma I said that without thinking. I really didn't know. It's been awhile since I read mizhou hui's first book but it's at my residence somewhere. he talked about why it was created, also about the 49th red army and all that stuff.

You're right about the police/military san da. Those guys could prevail. I still think everyone else( outside of san da - sport or military ) should do san da to make the transition to fighting if they want to be a fighter. I'm not a hard core fighter so I just live my life. I don't get into fights.

My focus is traditional, but if you don't want to believe that then fine. I don't want to argue about it.

thanks for the discussion. I apologize for my disrespectful tone. I acted in an insolent thoughtless way and I embarassed myself. I am sorry.

 

[graychuan]

To Xiongnu Lohon & Xue Sheng....

Very passionate thread here indeed but I would like to compliment and thank the both of you for a thread that is ripe with useful info. I am a Kempoist of 14 years, I have praticed Yang Tai Chi for 9+ years, and I have been in Wing Chun for 1.5 years. This was some enlightening reading for sure!

~Cg~

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm not interested in discussing what style I practice or who my former & current qigong teachers are. I'm a private person. If you don't want to continue the discussion then don't.

As far as I know it is really the consensus in the cma community that san soo is just kenpo. Could that be wrong? Yes, it could but given the facts I would say the burden is on the san soo folks.

You like to ask a lot of questions about everything I write. Let me try to answer some. Of course wing chun is different because from what I know they don't use all the stances. So I don't think modern wushu would help them much. I think it's better to amend my original statements and say I think modern wushu is good for the wai jia type arts. I don't know enough about the neijia stuff( xingyi, taiji, liu ho pa fa, pigua, baji, bagua, tongbei etc.). Actually I think tongbei is neijia but I don't actually know. But you get the idea.

Modern wushu helped me a lot. It made my stances a lot better and the balances really helped me even though there are no balances in any traditional sets I know. I don't take it too seriously the main thing I like is the warm-ups, the stances, the balances, and the kicks.

I spoke about san da without thinking. When I said it created to give a framework for cma I said that without thinking. I really didn't know. It's been awhile since I read mizhou hui's first book but it's at my residence somewhere. he talked about why it was created, also about the 49th red army and all that stuff.

You're right about the police/military san da. Those guys could prevail. I still think everyone else( outside of san da - sport or military ) should do san da to make the transition to fighting if they want to be a fighter. I'm not a hard core fighter so I just live my life. I don't get into fights.

My focus is traditional, but if you don't want to believe that then fine. I don't want to argue about it.

thanks for the discussion. I apologize for my disrespectful tone. I acted in an insolent thoughtless way and I embarassed myself. I am sorry.

No problem.

If you do not want to discuss your style that is fine. I would not give out the name of any Sifu I have ever trained with that does not advertise, have a website or is not published either.

As to wing chun being exempt there are a lot of stances in multiple CMA styles that are not in Contemporary Wushu and in some cases (not all) the stances that are used in Contemporary Wushu are not complete. A good example of that is any Xingyiquan or Baguazhang that is taught in a physical education college in China. They do not put the time in that as necessary to utilize the stances correctly from a traditional stand point. Stance training which is dismissed by most to day as old and antiquated is very important to many Traditional CMA styles but it is hard to do and rather boring so most do not do it at all. My first sifu (Wushu) taught Xingyi without stance training and I did not really know it was necessary at the time and to be honest Xingyi made no sense to me. My second Xingyi Sifu was traditionally trained and when he started stance training Xingyiquan’s potential for great power became clear.

An awful lot (not all) of the stances and forms found in Contemporary Wushu today come from Changquan (Long Fist). And many of those stances are exaggerated for performance reasons. But regardless there is an awful lot of skill and athleticism required for a Contemporary Wushu Performance of that there is no doubt. But much of it today is being exaggerated for reasons of winning the competition and many of those exaggerations are simply not good for the practitioner.

As to San Soo’s origin, I am not yet ready to make any statement on that since I currently have only one source of information on that and that comes from San Soo itself, I am looking for other verifiable sources. All I will say about San Soo is that from what I have seen it looks rather effective for what it claims to be, a no nonsense fighting style. Kenpo/Kempo is not a Chinese Martial Art that I do know. But I am very impressed by Kenpo/Kempo as well. I use to spar a Kenpo/Kempo guy from time to time (many years ago) and I will say he was an extremely good fighter.

As to Sanda, I wish I could honestly say that TCMA people do not need it but I can’t. If they are a traditionally trained TCMA person that has a qualified teacher that trains them like they should be and they follow the training they do not need Sanda but sadly most in TCMA do not train that way and a dose of Sanda could only help them.

And I do not like getting into fights either, I once had a job that required I get into them and I really did not enjoy that all that much.

And just a note my Sanda Sifu and Mizhou Hui were class mates.

And my apologies for what could easily be seen as hijacking your post :asian: