Chi Kung form form muscle development and strength

[Curios7877]

Very interesting thank you! Is there also something that works "muscle against muscle" like in Goju Ryu Sanchin with high tension. Where the agonist muscles have to work against the antagonist? I feel like that these exercises might not be the best for getting "jacked" one might from dynamic tension benefit for grappling applications

 

[Xue Sheng]

Very interesting thank you! Is there also something that works "muscle against muscle" like in Goju Ryu Sanchin with high tension. Where the agonist muscles have to work against the antagonist? I feel like that these exercises might not be the best for getting "jacked" one might from dynamic tension benefit for grappling applications

Bruce Lee: The Art of Expressing the Human Body

 

[jobo]

Very interesting thank you! Is there also something that works "muscle against muscle" like in Goju Ryu Sanchin with high tension. Where the agonist muscles have to work against the antagonist? I feel like that these exercises might not be the best for getting "jacked" one might from dynamic tension benefit for grappling applications

Very interesting thank you! Is there also something that works "muscle against muscle" like in Goju Ryu Sanchin with high tension. Where the agonist muscles have to work against the antagonist? I feel like that these exercises might not be the best for getting "jacked" one might from dynamic tension benefit for grappling applications

well,,,,,,, do you want to increase your strengh? if so those exercises are an extremly effective way of doing it with out gym equipment or more than a modest investment in time.

i find some of those extremly chalenging, if you dont, then your already very strong and there will be a progresion for you

pick half a dozen and do them for a minete each every day for a month and your torso strengh will increase greatly, torso strengh is were all effective strengh lies,, strong arms and legs are usless with out it, even more so for grappeling applications

will you get jacked? yes probably, if you do the same excercises as those guys you will end up with much the same body pattern, though being jacked and having significant strengh are not always or even very often the same thing

dynamic tension were your locking one muscle gròup and then moving it with another are great, but they take a well developed nervious system to work well, that is your already pretty dam strong ( otherwise your resisting a very weak muscle with an equally weak muscle and youl get nowhere fast like that)and have the capacity to activate the fibres to get maximal contraction and the resisting muscle to 99.9 % of the moving muscles which is harder than it sounds, but if you want to do them, do them, its easy, lock the muscles and move them, body builder poses are all you need or do them within a kata

 

[mograph]

There is no external Qigong?

Then why do the Chinese have different terms of internal and external Qigong, huh?

It's hard to tell if you're joking, but since you disagreed with my post, I'll assume you're being serious.

Context matters. My reply was valid in the context of the original question.
The OP wanted muscle building, external strength training. Qigong does not do that. Weight-bearing exercises do that.

"Qigong therapy can be of “internal” or “external” forms. Internal qigong refers to the self practice of mind-body-breathing integration techniques such as Tai chi or meditation. EQT [External Qigong Therapy] involves hand movements, similar to therapeutic touch, acupressure on specific points, focused attention (possible visualization), and other mind healing techniques to direct the therapist’s own qi into the patient." Effects of External Qigong Therapy on Osteoarthritis of the Knee A Randomized Controlled Trial

"External" can have more than one meaning.
Regarding qigong, it has nothing to do with building muscles.

 

[Oily Dragon]

@Oily Dragon let me tell you I'm cross training in submission grappling and Bjj besides TMA training and I have to say that strength is still a very useful thing in combat despite all technique. But I definately agree with you that I would always prefer to wrestle against a 180 pound bodybuilder instead of a 240 pound wrestler that isn't ripped. But strength is still factor in my opinion. And the people back then know a little bit about combat no matter if India, China, Rome or ancient greece

I think you missed my point. Qigong, Yoga, Pilates, are all bodyweight exercises. Alone, there will be a plateau as far as strength training and that limit is based on your weight. The bigger you are, the better. If you're small and shrimp, you will become svelte and stalwart.

Because of that, specifically for smaller people, some systems like Qigong add extra (metal) weights. These aren't part of the qigong, they are things people added to make the qigong more effective for building strength.

This is why elderly Tai Chi people just rely on their bodyweight, and beefier external Wei Gong practitioners cover themselves in stone, bronze, or medicine balls.

 

[Oily Dragon]

It's hard to tell if you're joking, but since you disagreed with my post, I'll assume you're being serious.

Context matters. My reply was valid in the context of the original question.
The OP wanted muscle building, external strength training. Qigong does not do that. Weight-bearing exercises do that.

"Qigong therapy can be of “internal” or “external” forms. Internal qigong refers to the self practice of mind-body-breathing integration techniques such as Tai chi or meditation. EQT [External Qigong Therapy] involves hand movements, similar to therapeutic touch, acupressure on specific points, focused attention (possible visualization), and other mind healing techniques to direct the therapist’s own qi into the patient." Effects of External Qigong Therapy on Osteoarthritis of the Knee A Randomized Controlled Trial

"External" can have more than one meaning.
Regarding qigong, it has nothing to do with building muscles.

You're suggesting there is no Wei Gong, specifically the building body muscle, sinew, tendon, and ligament qigong?

Your knowledge of Qigong appears pretty limited.

What Qigong sets do you actually know? I can tell you which sets include lunges and squats, by contrast.

 

[Curios7877]

I think you missed my point. Qigong, Yoga, Pilates, are all bodyweight exercises. Alone, there will be a plateau as far as strength training and that limit is based on your weight. The bigger you are, the better. If you're small and shrimp, you will become svelte and stalwart.

Because of that, specifically for smaller people, some systems like Qigong add extra (metal) weights. These aren't part of the qigong, they are things people added to make the qigong more effective for building strength.

This is why elderly Tai Chi people just rely on their bodyweight, and beefier external Wei Gong practitioners cover themselves in stone, bronze, or medicine balls.

I definately understand your point, of course the bodyweight is the crucial factor in that context. But with a Isontonic dynamic tension exercise set like Goju Sanchin were muscle works against muscle the strengthening effect would theoretecially still exist in zero gravity because the resistance does not depend on gravitational pull of one own body. But certainly the problem stays almost the same when your muscles are weak than you train "against" these weak muscles and you would be able to get much stronger. Nevertheless my interest at a Chi Kung form that is mainly a "dynamic" isometric exercise set that has it's focus on the external strengthening effect (like the Sanchin of Goju Ryu) resides.Very Sorry for my horrible english, it's not my first language

 

[minn8325]

The issue with dynamic tension is Isometrics only make you stronger at isometric so you’ll develop visable muscle over time but none of it will transfer into moving strength.

Dynamic tension was the core of Charles Atlas’s mail program.

That be said I am a big fan of Tai-Chi because I like doing it. It’s fun and relaxing check out - San Diego Tai Chi (Taiji)/Chi Kung Information

 

[jobo]

The issue with dynamic tension is Isometrics only make you stronger at isometric so you’ll develop visable muscle over time but none of it will transfer into moving strength.

Dynamic tension was the core of Charles Atlas’s mail program.

That be said I am a big fan of Tai-Chi because I like doing it. It’s fun and relaxing check out - San Diego Tai Chi (Taiji)/Chi Kung Information

well thats not true, there is a disconect between iso and the full range of motion, but iso will increase strengh markedly for 15 degree of motion each side of the hold point.

its not the hardest thing to do, 3/4/5 holds and get the benifits over the full range of motion but where they are especials useful, is where there is weakness in the power curve of a movement or you have a need to be very strong at point in the movement, such as straight arm push strengh and for muscle that only have a very short range of movement to start off with, like the pectoral

 

[minn8325]

well thats not true, there is a disconect between iso and the full range of motion, but iso will increase strengh markedly for 15 degree of motion each side of the hold point.

its not the hardest thing to do, 3/4/5 holds and get the benifits over the full range of motion but where they are especials useful, is where there is weakness in the power curve of a movement or you have a need to be very strong at point in the movement, such as straight arm push strengh and for muscle that only have a very short range of movement to start off with, like the pectoral

This is all true in powerlifting where the goal is to be tight and fast in a very specific range of motion under load.

not as much in unweighted whole/part natural motion. Powerlifting, Strongman, and Weightlifting are stand alone sports with training goals for those sports.

 

[jobo]

This is all true in powerlifting where the goal is to be tight and fast in a very specific range of motion under load.

not as much in unweighted whole/part natural motion. Powerlifting, Strongman, and Weightlifting are stand alone sports with training goals for those sports.

there can be a disconect between weight lifting and real world strengh, as real world strengh is as much about intermuscle co ordination as it is about the strengh of any particular muscle. and if the lift your doing doesnt match the real world it can leave you looking weak

but and its a big but, having strong / healthy muscles as a base and then learning to co ordinate them in real world movements is a more efficient way of going about things than focusing on the techneque and hoping your get stronger

 

[minn8325]

Sorry about all that I just found the ignore button didn’t mean to thread jack you with side conversations.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I definately understand your point, of course the bodyweight is the crucial factor in that context. But with a Isontonic dynamic tension exercise set like Goju Sanchin were muscle works against muscle the strengthening effect would theoretecially still exist in zero gravity because the resistance does not depend on gravitational pull of one own body. But certainly the problem stays almost the same when your muscles are weak than you train "against" these weak muscles and you would be able to get much stronger. Nevertheless my interest at a Chi Kung form that is mainly a "dynamic" isometric exercise set that has it's focus on the external strengthening effect (like the Sanchin of Goju Ryu) resides.Very Sorry for my horrible english, it's not my first language

Maybe it's a semantic issue, because dynamic means movement to me, so "dynamic isometric" means...idk.

Consider Zhan zhuang, a pretty common qigong set. I'd classify it alone as internal, static, and isometric when done on its own.

But in Tai Chi, the same is part of dynamic, isometric and isotonic combos. You spend time shifting between movement and stillness in a rthymic pattern.

It's still internal, and stand alone is valuable, but it's value in Tai Chi is multipled for the reason JoJo mentioned.

Now contrast with Southern Shaolin Iron Thread, which is similar but is far more like Charles Atlas's idea of dynamic tension, making it internal from an external point of view, but defintely external from a Tai Chi point of view.

If none of that makes any sense, welcome to Kung Fu.

 

[punisher73]

Iron thread/wire is a dynamic tension set in some kung fu styles (Hung Gar/Jow Gar for a couple).

There is also a set called, "stone warrior" that was done by Green Dragon Studios. It was put together by the head of the school, Sifu Allen and not a traditional set (I believe it was marketed as a traditional set though).

If your background was Goju-ryu, you can also train Seisan in the manner of Sanchin and incorporate the Hojo Undo tools used. In the Shuri based styles (Shorin-Ryu), Seisan was originally taught as their strength and conditioning kata since they didn't use Sanchin.

 

[Moriarty]

Sorry, I'm a bit late joining in this discussion.

This looks like it could be what the OP was asking about:

A Handbook for Twenty-Four Posture YiJinJing, by Wang Huaiqi

WANG HUAIQI’S TWENTY-FOUR POSTURE YIJINJING

– 易筋經廿四式圖說 A HANDBOOK FOR TWENTY-FOUR POSTURE YIJINJING 王懷琪 by Wang Huaiqi [published by 商務印書館 Merchant Publishing House, Sep, 1917] [translation by Paul Brennan, Nov, 2017] – 編者小影 Port…

brennantranslation.wordpress.com

 

[laopai kungfu]

Sorry, I'm a bit late joining in this discussion.

This looks like it could be what the OP was asking about:

A Handbook for Twenty-Four Posture YiJinJing, by Wang Huaiqi

WANG HUAIQI’S TWENTY-FOUR POSTURE YIJINJING

– 易筋經廿四式圖說 A HANDBOOK FOR TWENTY-FOUR POSTURE YIJINJING 王懷琪 by Wang Huaiqi [published by 商務印書館 Merchant Publishing House, Sep, 1917] [translation by Paul Brennan, Nov, 2017] – 編者小影 Port…

brennantranslation.wordpress.com

I'd like to second this recommendation. This version of the muscle change classic is what you're looking for. Unlike the 12 movement one most are familar with that use tension in a stretched position, this one uses dynamic tension in a contracted position leading to greater muscle size and strength. It is 22 or 24 moves long and is done from 12 to 50 reps depending on the tradition, although i rarely go beyond15 myself. It's a good set to keep in your back pocket and makes a nice add-on to barbell work.

Iron wire and Green Dragons stone warrior sets are also worth doing as is their teet lohan qinquan.

 

[Koryuhoka]

I'm searching for a chi kung set that has it's focuses purely on dyanmic tension. I would really like to know which prioritises dynamic tension the most in all the styles that are out there.

I would guess probably something from a southern style but I would love if somebody could enlighten me. Thanks very much for your help in advance.

(I'm well aware about the fact that for a solely muscle building/strenghtening effect one is better of with weight training. But besides the fact that all gyms are still closed in my country just a thought experiment what is the set would do best for muscle strength/building?)

Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu Sanchin Kata. They are Hard Qigong.

 

[Koryuhoka]

Thanks for the answers so far.



The benefit I'm trying to get out of this is a exclusively external strength building set. My background is Goju karate and I always enjoyed doing Sanchin to training and improving my muscle strength for the most I'm aware that the internal aspect of Sanchin also is important in Karate. But sometimes I only use the Kata as a dynamic tension isometric/exercise set.

Now I wonder if there is a dynamic tension exercise set alike in any Kung fu style that's main purpose is to build strength and tone martial arts specific muscle like high tension sanchin in Goju Ryu Karate.

Sanchin is of Chinese origin. And IT IS a Hard Qigong. You already have what you are looking for. Seriously. You can do Sanchin and Tensho. You have it in your hands and do not realize it.