Yet interestingly enough, people will say that the 'stats' show that that is exactly how people will attack...the overhead and the straight thrust. Personally I think it'd be wise to train for that, and a slash, a rapid fire pumping action of the knife such as we'd see in a prison knife attack, as well as stationary knife attacks, ie: having the blade held to your throat.
Change, Change and More Change
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Yet interestingly enough, people will say that the 'stats' show that that is exactly how people will attack...the overhead and the straight thrust. Personally I think it'd be wise to train for that, and a slash, a rapid fire pumping action of the knife such as we'd see in a prison knife attack, as well as stationary knife attacks, ie: having the blade held to your throat.
MJS that vast majority of people always fight change once some thing is established. However, I think you are absolutely right that GM Parker would have continued to change and improve his system incorporating grappling, etc. as the years went on. He was someone who was innovative and wanted to grow. I don't think he would have sat around and said, "this is it and all of it"!
Agreed Brian. But while this is true, I've seen the following asked as well: If Mr. Parker made changes, why do people frown on others that make changes? Was Mr. Parker the only one capable of making a change?
I for one, would be interested in seeing the notes. Everyone that I've asked about grappling, says that its groundfighting, not grappling. I'd be interested in knowing exactly what it consisted of.
Agreed! I've been preaching this since I joined this forum, but sadly, I think my posts were misunderstood. I was not suggesting then, nor now, that we abandon Kenpo and take up (insert any grappling art here) but instead to learn how to best get out of the potential positions, and get back up.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
There is nothing effective that would violate SGM Parker's vision. Unless (sadly) it was unprofitable.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
Still waiting on those stats. My evidence (as mentioned earlier) contradicts that, but is anecdotal....if I see contradictory data, I'll change my tune.
Totally agree that we should have techniques against many kinds of knife attacks -- the downward stab is overrepresented, to say the least.
The big thing I see is that he was not someone to say, "this is it" no I think he would have continued making improvements and become better in every area. When I think of GM Ed Parker I do not think of a great grappler. I am sure he had some training and probably was decent but that obviously was not his strength or it probably would have shown through. However, if he had been alive to see the revolution in the Martial Sciences when the Gracies began in the UFC I think you may have seen him progress and change and adapt more grappling into Kenpo and I do not mean anti-grappling. No, I think you would have seen more grappling oriented material coming out by him. However, that is all pure speculation on my part based on his make up!
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
How many kenpo seniors does it take to change a lightbulb?
Ford has the Mustang, Escape, Fusion, Explorer and Expedition. All different vehicles, yet they're all produced by the same company...Ford. Mills has his version, Speakman, Pick, you, me and everyone else has theirs. Like Ford, all the Kenpo still comes from the same source.
I see what you're saying though.
:lol:
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
Eleven. One to change it, and ten to say "that's not how GM Parker showed me"
Change is usually fought against but a lot of times change is for the better. I think those Kenpoist's that step out and learn more then bring it back to the system deserve a lot of credit! As long as they stay within the core fundamental principles then why not go out and learn more! I do not think that GM Ed Parker would tell people not to learn more as that would go against what he himself was doing on his martial path!
The problem is when someone says "this is it" or "we always had that"! They have kind've shut off their mind and become close minded. If you become close minded as a martial practitioner you might as well do some thing else with your time! I know way to many people that have became close minded through the years and well they really never improved much while training anymore! Instead always be a student and try and learn more!
I honestly think GM Ed Parker would tell his people still training in Kenpo to go out and learn more! Bring it back and lets train!
The problem is when someone says "this is it" or "we always had that"! They have kind've shut off their mind and become close minded. If you become close minded as a martial practitioner you might as well do some thing else with your time! I know way to many people that have became close minded through the years and well they really never improved much while training anymore! Instead always be a student and try and learn more!
Here are some statistics or research I found on knife attacks:
http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/edgedweapons.html
This one is a secondary source, but it would seem from reading it that the greatest danger is multiple stab wounds and not being able to recognize you're being attacked with a knife, even though you've seen it.
http://www.ncjrs.gov/app/Search/Abstracts.aspx?id=206343
This is just an abstract, and again, a secondary source, but it suggests nothing about an overhead attack.
The other abstracts I read all read pretty much the same: sneak attack, multiple stab and slash attacks, failure to recognize that you're being attacked with a knife, etc., but nothing supporting the statement that overhead knife attacks are common.
Since you've read the statististics, could you please provide them? I'm trying, I promise, but I'm not finding anything that could back up your claim.
http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/edgedweapons.html
This one is a secondary source, but it would seem from reading it that the greatest danger is multiple stab wounds and not being able to recognize you're being attacked with a knife, even though you've seen it.
http://www.ncjrs.gov/app/Search/Abstracts.aspx?id=206343
This is just an abstract, and again, a secondary source, but it suggests nothing about an overhead attack.
The other abstracts I read all read pretty much the same: sneak attack, multiple stab and slash attacks, failure to recognize that you're being attacked with a knife, etc., but nothing supporting the statement that overhead knife attacks are common.
Since you've read the statististics, could you please provide them? I'm trying, I promise, but I'm not finding anything that could back up your claim.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
That's more in line with what I've been told, as well.
On the other hand, Blindside has the knowledge of a great many things. I'm inclined to take anything he says about sticks and knives and put a great big exclamation point at the end.
On the other hand, Blindside has the knowledge of a great many things. I'm inclined to take anything he says about sticks and knives and put a great big exclamation point at the end.
Change is usually fought against but a lot of times change is for the better. I think those Kenpoist's that step out and learn more then bring it back to the system deserve a lot of credit! As long as they stay within the core fundamental principles then why not go out and learn more! I do not think that GM Ed Parker would tell people not to learn more as that would go against what he himself was doing on his martial path!
The problem is when someone says "this is it" or "we always had that"! They have kind've shut off their mind and become close minded. If you become close minded as a martial practitioner you might as well do some thing else with your time! I know way to many people that have became close minded through the years and well they really never improved much while training anymore! Instead always be a student and try and learn more!I honestly think GM Ed Parker would tell his people still training in Kenpo to go out and learn more! Bring it back and lets train!
You'd get a kick out of The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn.
I have never met either Mr. Speakman nor Mr. Mills, but I have seen them in some video clips and heard a lot about them. We are clearly talking about two very accomplished kenpoists who trained directly under Mr. Parker. The two of them, without question, have, what is discussed in another thread, a true "understanding" of the art (which I feel can be relative to each individual) as taught to them by Mr. Parker himself.
Both of the men you reference have amazing skill and teaching ability. If you were to study their teachings independently, I think you would find that both of them are consistent in teaching the underlying principles of EPAK. They have made it their own, but it is not so different from what Mr. Parker taught.
It is well documented that the accumulative journal was created so that the "Ed Parker" schools would have a consistent curriculum to follow so that you could train at any given school and not be lost. The terminology would be the same, the principles would be the same, the school rules would be the same, etc.
Since Mr. Parker is not with us anymore to implement his own changes (which I strongly believe would be the case), We must rely, as they do in nearly every other art, on the definition of our "elders" perspectives on what they were taught and trust that they know what the heck they are talking about.
Are they teaching the EPAK system...? No, but I believe that they are teaching from the base concepts and what they know of what they were taught and that it is EPAK, just not the system as Mr. Parker put on paper.
I think we are foolish to not listen to what each and every one of these first and second generation guys have to teach as they are our living resource into the mind of the late great Mr. Parker whom I did have the opportunity of training with, albeit as a kid, on a couple occasions. He was an amazing mind.
As far as not looking outside of Kenpo? I think we are foolish there again if we don't. EPAK is a system built upon aspects of other arts. Mr. Parker himself wanted the art to be tailored to each individual. I think that this means as far as ones physical makeup goes as well as to each persons experiences (life on the street or other martial arts). I think it is our duty to both preserve what Mr. Parker taught as well as to continue the evolution of this beautiful and effective art.
Hope I answered your questions you asked me from the other thread. I tend to ramble a bit.
God bless and stay safe,
James
Sorry guys, I managed to forget about this thread, but I went back into my notes and did a bit of googling.
In terms of anecdotal information, from that same document this quote appears by the author Darren Laur. (And it should be noted that this is one of the better compilations of data that I have been able to find.)
Knife attacks are a bit odd, there are several studies that look at mortalities related to knife attacks, those are from forensic reports as those locations are well documented. The sample is biased because the stabbings tend to be more fatal than the slash wounds. The majority of fatal knife wounds involve wounds to the torso, often multiple wounds, but that doesn't really tell the whole story about knife attacks.
This article may have a cultural bias that is different than the US (or UK) because it is involving a rural agricultural culture and items such as machetes are more common than most of our Western cultures. But it shows a tendency toward head and neck injuries.
One from the UK, one done on survivors of edged weapon attacks:
Finally, this looks at all cases of edged weapon attacks at Glasgow Royal Infirmary over a 4 year period, I have gone into the rather lengthy abstract and removed the Phase 1 material and added one of the pertinent charts from the main article that wasn't included. The formatting of the chart is all screwed up so I tried to simplify it
So those are the better edged weapon stats that I have been able to dig up, it might make its own thread, but would be happy to discuss the potential fallacies in the stats.
"There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies, and statistics." ~Mark Twain
In terms of anecdotal information, from that same document this quote appears by the author Darren Laur. (And it should be noted that this is one of the better compilations of data that I have been able to find.)
Knife attacks are a bit odd, there are several studies that look at mortalities related to knife attacks, those are from forensic reports as those locations are well documented. The sample is biased because the stabbings tend to be more fatal than the slash wounds. The majority of fatal knife wounds involve wounds to the torso, often multiple wounds, but that doesn't really tell the whole story about knife attacks.
This article may have a cultural bias that is different than the US (or UK) because it is involving a rural agricultural culture and items such as machetes are more common than most of our Western cultures. But it shows a tendency toward head and neck injuries.
One from the UK, one done on survivors of edged weapon attacks:
Head and neck injuries are 30% of the wounded locations
Finally, this looks at all cases of edged weapon attacks at Glasgow Royal Infirmary over a 4 year period, I have gone into the rather lengthy abstract and removed the Phase 1 material and added one of the pertinent charts from the main article that wasn't included. The formatting of the chart is all screwed up so I tried to simplify it
So those are the better edged weapon stats that I have been able to dig up, it might make its own thread, but would be happy to discuss the potential fallacies in the stats.
"There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies, and statistics." ~Mark Twain
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Inkspill
Orange Belt
from what I've reviewed, living in the US, the most likely attack is a 'prison style' knife attack, a flurry of quick stabs aimed at the body, from the front, side, or rear; as many stabs as can be executed as quickly as possible.
generally, most martial arts I've come across defend against a single thrust or a double slash, with a large commitment behind it. this doesn't seem realistic.
generally, most martial arts I've come across defend against a single thrust or a double slash, with a large commitment behind it. this doesn't seem realistic.
As just a quick bit of anecdotal research, I did a google search for "knife attacks," running through the first 10 pages I came up with 11 news articles that were good enough mention "slash" or "stab" or something similar, 5 were slashes, 6 were stabs. My group is now a primarily kali based group and we spend alot of time defending just the sort of attack you are talking about, so I am certainly not discounting the validity of the statement, but I am not sure that "most likely" is the right term. Maybe "most dangerous."
