Chang Moo Kwan?

[mastercole]

Yep: fight sense (timing? reading opponents?), power, agility and stamina are ALL going to increase one's chances of escaping unharmed in a self-defense situation.

These and those things that are only developed by hard, and constant full contact training like will power, fighting spirit, tenacity, killer instinct, etc. Without these elements that come from full contact training, of any type, hand to hand self defense capability is greatly diminished.

But "you fight like you train" proves true all too often.

And if a person does not train full contact, for years and years, when the self defense situation goes full contact - as most do - it's not going to go well for them, no matter what kind of martial theories they have been talking or reading about.

If you train to watch for and defend against only kicks to the head and face

Only kicks to the head and face? The mass majority of kicking in WTF matches are to the body, not to the head and face. Me being team leader for the US Taekwondo Team several times - I get to watch a lot of WTF matches ringside and I see a lot of kicking and punching to the body with the occasional attempt to kick the head and face. You must be thinking of some other martial art.

and only look for punches to come to the body you run the risk of developing habits that are bad for the the most likely self-defense scenarios.

The legal scoring area for a straight punch on the upper part of the WTF hogu is about 6" below the jaw. Many times WTF fighters are punched in the face, by accident, or on purpose. All the WTF fighter that I know of train to avoid and roll with ANY technique coming at their head and face, and I know some of the most elite WTF fighters in the world. Being knocked out by a face punch in a WTF match, even though illegal, takes you out of the competition, you lose. WTF fighters take it very serious. That said your average guy on the street can not punch that well, and his punch is usually easily avoided for most train fighters, of any style.

Odds are, you aren't going to be attacked with kicks. Odds are they are going to be punches (or a weapon swung) at the face.

And odds are the person doing the attacking is not going to have anywhere near the skill, timing, distance, will power, and technique of a trained fighter and will usually find himself in a very bad situation, having swung on a trained full contact fighter of any type. That said kicks are used in self defense encounters all the time, only second to hands, not third, forth, or fifth. So yes, one is likely to encounter some type of kicking in a self defense encounter.

Run in at a bar brawler with your hands dangling at your sides to rub chests is a bad idea — just like "turtling up" (a viable defense in Judo competition) is a bad idea anywhere except in a judo match.

If they did so, it would be done with the confidence that the other person did not have the skill it took to do any damage. Elite boxers do it to other elite boxers all the time while taunting them, sticking out the chin and laughing while completely dominating the other elite fighter, ultimately defeating him. Elite fighters can do a lot of things your average part time recreational martial arts guy should never do and probably would never dream of doing.

 

[puunui]

If they did so, it would be done with the confidence that the other person did not have the skill it took to do any damage. Elite boxers do it to other elite boxers all the time while taunting them, sticking out the chin and laughing while completely dominating the other elite fighter, ultimately defeating him. Elite fighters can do a lot of things your average part time recreational martial arts guy should never do and probably would never dream of doing.

I think the thing that comes out of all these types of discussions about the ineffectiveness of taekwondo in a self defense situations is that those who criticize taekwondo often times have little or no actual experience facing someone who does understand. Sparring someone who has learned using the taekwondo modern training methods and feeling that sense of helplessness needs to be experienced first hand. I don't think there is any other way to get it besides first hand experience. I think this is true of other styles as well, brazilian jiujitsu for example, where your partner goes for the choke or arm bar, and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[mastercole]

I think the thing that comes out of all these types of discussions about the ineffectiveness of taekwondo in a self defense situations is that those who criticize taekwondo often times have little or no actual experience facing someone who does understand. Sparring someone who has learned using the taekwondo modern training methods and feeling that sense of helplessness needs to be experienced first hand. I don't think there is any other way to get it besides first hand experience. I think this is true of other styles as well, brazilian jiujitsu for example, where your partner goes for the choke or arm bar, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Nothing like first hand experience to enlighten one self.

 

[zDom]

Hi Mastercole.

I don't recall discussing anything with you previously: nice to meet you.

These and those things that are only developed by hard, and constant full contact training like will power, fighting spirit, tenacity, killer instinct, etc. Without these elements that come from full contact training, of any type, hand to hand self defense capability is greatly diminished.

While I agree there are benefits to be had by experiencing full contact training and competition, I disagree that "will power, fighting spirit, tenacity, killer instinct" are "only developed by hard, and constant full contact training."

I further disagree that implication that these elements only come from full contract training but I do agree that "hand to hand self defense capability is greatly diminished" without power, fighting spirit and tenacity.

I would need your definition of "killer instinct" before I could speak to that.

And if a person does not train full contact, for years and years, when the self defense situation goes full contact - as most do - it's not going to go well for them, no matter what kind of martial theories they have been talking or reading about.

False. It is not necessarily true that a self defense encounter is "not going to go well for them" if a person does not train full contact for years and years. There are countless incidents that prove this is false. It is in fact, a ridiculous statement if you think about it.

Furthermore, it appears (and I could be wrong) that there is an implication that if someone isn't training "full contact, for years and years" that they are just "talking or reading about" martial theories.

While I have engaged in full contact training for periods of time on occasion, nearly all of my training over the last 20 years has been in traditional taekwondo and hapkido martial art training.

The taekwondo was ITF style in its roots: my instructor, Steven G. Dunn, was taught by Jeff Forby of Murphysboro, Ill., a student of the late Lee H. Park of Cape Girardeau (died 1988) who was a student of KANG Suh Chong, the eighth student to achieve dan ranking at the Chung Do Kwan founded by LEE Won Kuk.

At some time (I am conducting research to get an approximate year) Lee H. Park sent Forby to learn what was at that time the new WTF forms, the Taegeuks. Park's organization, the Moo Sul Kwan / American Martial Arts Sports and Education Association, at that time made the change to WTF forms as its primary rank requirements. MSK students do, however, learn Chon Ji first as a white belt followed by Taegeuk 1; and in addition to WTF dan-rank poomse also train Chung Moo, Gaebaek, Yu Sin. Interestingly, they are not done with the Sine Wave.

While our tournaments use point-style light contact for sparring contests, on a daily basis the sparring we trained was very, very heavy — most of the time without chest protectors — just foam feet and hand gear.

In my opinion, to engage in extremely heavy contact during sparring while being careful to not injure your opponent takes more skill than full contact sparring. Anyone off the street can come in and punch or kick as hard as they can. To have the focus and control to be able to hit your opponent as hard as you can without breaking a rib, without splattering their nose, without cutting open a cheek only comes through vigorous training.

For clarity's sake, I'm not saying we were hitting as hard as we were able to hit — I am saying, we were hitting each as hard and fast as we could get away with while being careful to not injure our opponent. It got rough, but we (almost always) were able to go to work the next day without a black eye.

This precision striking translates perfectly well to self defense. I know. I have defended myself. I have heard of similar successful defenses from those within my organization from what I consider to be reputable sources.

Only kicks to the head and face? The mass majority of kicking in WTF matches are to the body, not to the head and face. Me being team leader for the US Taekwondo Team several times - I get to watch a lot of WTF matches ringside and I see a lot of kicking and punching to the body with the occasional attempt to kick the head and face. You must be thinking of some other martial art.

I obviously was not clear enough for you or you are answering based on an assumption of ignorance on my part. I am very familiar with WTF taekwondo. I know they usually kick to the body.

I never meant to convey that punches are only allowed to the body and that kicks are only allowed to the head. I understand that punches are allowed only to the body and that kicks are allowed to either the body or the head. Should I clarify further by shading a diagram of legal target areas?

The legal scoring area for a straight punch on the upper part of the WTF hogu is about 6" below the jaw. Many times WTF fighters are punched in the face, by accident, or on purpose. All the WTF fighter that I know of train to avoid and roll with ANY technique coming at their head and face, and I know some of the most elite WTF fighters in the world. Being knocked out by a face punch in a WTF match, even though illegal, takes you out of the competition, you lose. WTF fighters take it very serious. That said your average guy on the street can not punch that well, and his punch is usually easily avoided for most train fighters, of any style.

Seems to me to be an exploitable loophole. I wonder if I could make it to the Olympic team by knocking opponents out with face punches since you seem to imply it doesn't result in disqualification.

I'll go ahead and add this: your average guy in the WTF doesn't punch as well as me.

If they did, more matches would end with technical knockouts from punches to the body. I've only fought a couple of WTF style matches, but I did win one with a competitor who was four inches taller and outweighed me by 40 pounds with punches to the body. He refused to come back for the second round.

And odds are the person doing the attacking is not going to have anywhere near the skill, timing, distance, will power, and technique of a trained fighter and will usually find himself in a very bad situation, having swung on a trained full contact fighter of any type. That said kicks are used in self defense encounters all the time, only second to hands, not third, forth, or fifth. So yes, one is likely to encounter some type of kicking in a self defense encounter.

This in no way invalidates the point I made that you are responding to.

And I have very often argued the very same point you are making in the first part of the above quote. It doesn't change the fact that the most likely attack in a self defense scenario is going to be a punch to the face, not an axe kick or a jump spinning heel.

If they did so, it would be done with the confidence that the other person did not have the skill it took to do any damage. Elite boxers do it to other elite boxers all the time while taunting them, sticking out the chin and laughing while completely dominating the other elite fighter, ultimately defeating him. Elite fighters can do a lot of things your average part time recreational martial arts guy should never do and probably would never dream of doing.

Really? Elite fighters can turtle up with such confidence that it prevents ordinary men from injuring their exposed spine and kidneys? They can rub their chest against an attacker with so much confidence that an ordinary man would be unable to damage their exposed face?

Awesome.

But this discussion wasn't about the extreme tactics WTF's elites can engage in with impunity. Maybe you should start another thread on this topic and see what kind of response it gets.

 

[ETinCYQX]

zDom, you talk about being familiar with WTF Taekwondo but with all due respect I don't see much evidence of that in your posts, at least not to the degree that mastercole and puunui are. You are telling people who are amongst the leaders of Taekwondo in the US about their own sport.

We hear this all the time, and by "we" I mean probably every KKW teacher on this board. Someone has all the answers and we're all only sport oriented and useless for self defense, and they could easily come in and beat us all up by punching the face.

Here is what mastercole and puunui have been saying. The ruleset used for sparring is irrelevant. Boxers only punch, are they incapable of self defense? Wrestlers don't strike, are they incapable of self defense?

Even more to the point, like every other KKW Taekwondo black belt, I know all of the "dirty tricks" and self defense moves that ITF guys, or MSK guys, or CDK guys do and how to apply them. Even without those techniques, roundhouse kicks from WTF competitors have been measured at over 1000lbs of force. No one is taking that directly to the stomach and staying standing.

I would go so far as to say that the people who do not understand or accept this do not understand competition. A lot of people don't, even a lot of people who coach students for tournaments etc. I mean no disrespect to you personally, I am simply stating our viewpoint. Having been on both sides of this debate I can see where you come from but when my perspective matched yours it was honestly because I didn't know enough about WTF competition training.

 

[zDom]

zDom, you talk about being familiar with WTF Taekwondo but with all due respect I don't see much evidence of that in your posts, at least not to the degree that mastercole and puunui are. You are telling people who are amongst the leaders of Taekwondo in the US about their own sport.

We hear this all the time, and by "we" I mean probably every KKW teacher on this board. Someone has all the answers and we're all only sport oriented and useless for self defense, and they could easily come in and beat us all up by punching the face.

Here is what mastercole and puunui have been saying. The ruleset used for sparring is irrelevant. Boxers only punch, are they incapable of self defense? Wrestlers don't strike, are they incapable of self defense?

Even more to the point, like every other KKW Taekwondo black belt, I know all of the "dirty tricks" and self defense moves that ITF guys, or MSK guys, or CDK guys do and how to apply them. Even without those techniques, roundhouse kicks from WTF competitors have been measured at over 1000lbs of force. No one is taking that directly to the stomach and staying standing.

I would go so far as to say that the people who do not understand or accept this do not understand competition. A lot of people don't, even a lot of people who coach students for tournaments etc. I mean no disrespect to you personally, I am simply stating our viewpoint. Having been on both sides of this debate I can see where you come from but when my perspective matched yours it was honestly because I didn't know enough about WTF competition training.

Good post, Etin.

You are correct that I couldn't possibly be as familiar with WTF as mastercole and puunui are. But then, it is not reasonable for them to
automatically assume I am as ignorant about WTF as they make me out to be. One would have to be pretty thick in the head to spend 20 years training Korean martial arts without having at least a basic familiarity with WTF.

And I certainly understand how someone who is deeply involved with KKW and/or WTF taekwondo could end up being a little touchy about this subject.

But reactions such as were made to my original comments are not going to convince anyone nor lead to a meaningful discussions which could clear up the misconceptions they struggle against.

Please note the central point of my post that brought about this confusing exchange was simply that WTF competitors, like other athletes who train for a specific rule set, "run the risk of developing habits that are bad for the the most likely self-defense scenarios."

I still believe that is a valid concern and feel no regret about extending that caution. It applies not only to WTF, but also to boxing, wrestling, point style taekwondo — ANY rule set including MMA. Even the type of sparring that I prefer as described above includes that risk: we don't allow kicks to the legs and that can foster habits that can prove detrimental in self defense.

This is what I believe to be a truism and I diligently remind my students to be mindful of it.

I have no doubt that the top WTF coaches are aware of this and train their students accordingly.

Beginning martial art students who read posts at Martial Talk may NOT be aware of it and it bears repeating.

Therefore, a rule set is NOT irrelevant. If you and or mastercole and puunui believe it to be, then we disagree. Debate me on this point but please leave straw men and other fallacies out of the discussion and we will be able to have a reasonable discussion. Reasonable discussions are good.

I have never to my recollection implied that because boxers only punch they incapable of self defense or that wrestlers don't strike so they incapable of self defense.

The risk I see boxers facing would be they may not be prepared for the forces he or she delivers on an unsupported wrist. On the other hand, they might be. But it something, I think, they should consider. A wrestler should at some time consider which positions and holds would be useful in a self-defense situation and which would expose them to danger in a self defense situation — as well as what techniques are illegal because they are dangerous in competition and therefore might be useful in self defense.

While a top TKD competitor is surely able to finish an attacker with a single roundhouse kick and without doubt has the timing and skill to land that type of devastating blow, what about a yellow belt ... or a blue belt who is NOT a top competitor? If they don't consider that their training for a specific rule set may foster "habits that are bad for the the most likely self-defense scenarios" (such as punches to the head) they could end up being not as well prepared for self defense as the more highly trained elite athletes in their sport.

Understand that I DO understand the things that, because of my comment, you and they have assumed I don't.

Can we agree that making assumptions about each other and than responding based on those assumptions rather than really listening to what is being said is not the best way to clear up misconceptions?

In summation, what I ask is simply this: feel free to argue a point I make ANY time. Please refrain from making assumptions about me or what I am saying and then reacting to that.

And please realize that I have watched hours and hours of WTF footage as well as live matches and visited and trained with several WTF style schools while reminding myself that what I have observed may not necessarily reflect how WTF is trained everywhere.

To have made this effort to not be ignorant of what is going out on outside of my dojang over the last 20 years only to be treated like an armchair martial artist by someone who is showing a pattern of dissecting my posts with a condescending attitude is patently offensive.

I hope our relationship can be better than that, ETin.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Good post, Etin.

You are correct that I couldn't possibly be as familiar with WTF as mastercole and puunui are. But then, it is not reasonable for them to
automatically assume I am as ignorant about WTF as they make me out to be. One would have to be pretty thick in the head to spend 20 years training Korean martial arts without having at least a basic familiarity with WTF.

And I certainly understand how someone who is deeply involved with KKW and/or WTF taekwondo could end up being a little touchy about this subject.

But reactions such as were made to my original comments are not going to convince anyone nor lead to a meaningful discussions which could clear up the misconceptions they struggle against.

Please note the central point of my post that brought about this confusing exchange was simply that WTF competitors, like other athletes who train for a specific rule set, "run the risk of developing habits that are bad for the the most likely self-defense scenarios."

I still believe that is a valid concern and feel no regret about extending that caution. It applies not only to WTF, but also to boxing, wrestling, point style taekwondo — ANY rule set including MMA. Even the type of sparring that I prefer as described above includes that risk: we don't allow kicks to the legs and that can foster habits that can prove detrimental in self defense.

This is what I believe to be a truism and I diligently remind my students to be mindful of it.

I have no doubt that the top WTF coaches are aware of this and train their students accordingly.

Beginning martial art students who read posts at Martial Talk may NOT be aware of it and it bears repeating.

Therefore, a rule set is NOT irrelevant. If you and or mastercole and puunui believe it to be, then we disagree. Debate me on this point but please leave straw men and other fallacies out of the discussion and we will be able to have a reasonable discussion. Reasonable discussions are good.

I have never to my recollection implied that because boxers only punch they incapable of self defense or that wrestlers don't strike so they incapable of self defense.

The risk I see boxers facing would be they may not be prepared for the forces he or she delivers on an unsupported wrist. On the other hand, they might be. But it something, I think, they should consider. A wrestler should at some time consider which positions and holds would be useful in a self-defense situation and which would expose them to danger in a self defense situation — as well as what techniques are illegal because they are dangerous in competition and therefore might be useful in self defense.

While a top TKD competitor is surely able to finish an attacker with a single roundhouse kick and without doubt has the timing and skill to land that type of devastating blow, what about a yellow belt ... or a blue belt who is NOT a top competitor? If they don't consider that their training for a specific rule set may foster "habits that are bad for the the most likely self-defense scenarios" (such as punches to the head) they could end up being not as well prepared for self defense as the more highly trained elite athletes in their sport.

Understand that I DO understand the things that, because of my comment, you and they have assumed I don't.

Can we agree that making assumptions about each other and than responding based on those assumptions rather than really listening to what is being said is not the best way to clear up misconceptions?

In summation, what I ask is simply this: feel free to argue a point I make ANY time. Please refrain from making assumptions about me or what I am saying and then reacting to that.

And please realize that I have watched hours and hours of WTF footage as well as live matches and visited and trained with several WTF style schools while reminding myself that what I have observed may not necessarily reflect how WTF is trained everywhere.

To have made this effort to not be ignorant of what is going out on outside of my dojang over the last 20 years only to be treated like an armchair martial artist by someone who is showing a pattern of dissecting my posts with a condescending attitude is patently offensive.

I hope our relationship can be better than that, ETin.

While I wasn't trying to be offensive, I definitely could have phrased my response better, you're right. You have my apologies for that.

I'd still maintain though that ruleset is largely irrelevant, and any disadvantage the ruleset an athlete trains for brings with it is offset by strength, speed, conditioning, etc. I have a father and son who train with me, the father is in fairly good shape and focuses mostly on self defense and is good at it, and his son focuses mostly on sport and is equally good at it. However the son has much better cardio and strength because that's what he needs to succeed in what he's doing; even with a somewhat more restricted skill set I'd take the son over the father if they were to engage each other.

Despite being focused on sport I still do teach low kicks, face punches, etc and spar with them, full contact even for higher ranking students. It's certainly useful for self defense but a lot of the time I wonder if they would be just as well served by standard WTF sparring and getting good at that; the self defense style sparring doesn't seem to teach them footwork, distance or timing as well as the WTF competition stuff does.

My first name is Ethan, you're welcome to call me that if you want.

 

[puunui]

While I agree there are benefits to be had by experiencing full contact training and competition, I disagree that "will power, fighting spirit, tenacity, killer instinct" are "only developed by hard, and constant full contact training."

That is Peyton Quinn's opinion, and one of the reasons for his bulletman training, so that people can go all out against the bulletman. Peyton, in his book, tells the story of a karate melee he witnessed, where a bunch of opposing karateka were trying to attack each other full force, but no one was doing any damage, even though they were trying to hit as hard as they could. He said their lack of full contact experience robbed them of their ability to handle themselves in a fight.

While I have engaged in full contact training for periods of time on occasion, nearly all of my training over the last 20 years has been in traditional taekwondo and hapkido martial art training.

What does that mean? And twenty years, and still a 1st Dan, according to your profile. I know rank doesn't mean much, but it does give an indication about what your instructor thinks about you, your dedication to training, and your abilities.

The taekwondo was ITF style in its roots: my instructor, Steven G. Dunn, was taught by Jeff Forby of Murphysboro, Ill., a student of the late Lee H. Park of Cape Girardeau (died 1988) who was a student of KANG Suh Chong, the eighth student to achieve dan ranking at the Chung Do Kwan founded by LEE Won Kuk.

Some versions of the Modern History book out there (which my students and I translated) put numbers on the original kwan students from the 1940s. But in the original version, there is no number associated with the names and there is no implication that these were the first five or ten black belt holders. So while you may have seen on a version of the Modern History book translation the number 8, next to GM Kang's name, it doesn't mean he was the 8th person to be promoted to 1st Dan by GM LEE Won Kuk. There is records of those things by the way, which the Chung Do Kwan still keeps. There remains the guep records as well. Mr. Dunn and Mr. Forby I never heard of.

While our tournaments use point-style light contact for sparring contests, on a daily basis the sparring we trained was very, very heavy — most of the time without chest protectors — just foam feet and hand gear.

and

In my opinion, to engage in extremely heavy contact during sparring while being careful to not injure your opponent takes more skill than full contact sparring. Anyone off the street can come in and punch or kick as hard as they can. To have the focus and control to be able to hit your opponent as hard as you can without breaking a rib, without splattering their nose, without cutting open a cheek only comes through vigorous training.

and

For clarity's sake, I'm not saying we were hitting as hard as we were able to hit — I am saying, we were hitting each as hard and fast as we could get away with while being careful to not injure our opponent. It got rough, but we (almost always) were able to go to work the next day without a black eye.

That is exactly what Peyton Quinn talks about in his book. You should know this, as an advocate of the "the way you train is the way you react" school. You train to pull your blows, and that is exactly what you will do when confronted in a real situation, right? In contrast, taekwondoin who train using the modern training methods train to deliver full force blows, which is what they do when confronted with a real situation. Bruce Lee talked about this in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, the idea that people think they can "coast" but then open up at anytime. The old the way you train is the way you react rears its ugly head again. train to hit full force blows, and that is what you will do in a real situation. Train to pull your blows, and that will be your reaction in a real situation. Peyton says that one of the most important things in "real fighting" is the ability to deliver full force blows, something that is only developed by throwing full force blows, which for him involves the bulletman suit.

This precision striking translates perfectly well to self defense. I know. I have defended myself

Sounds like you defended yourself once. I guess that is better than never having defended yourself at all. I would hope that you would have a bigger base of experience from which to speak, but we have to go with what we have. Once is better than nothing.

I am very familiar with WTF taekwondo. I know they usually kick to the body. I never meant to convey that punches are only allowed to the body and that kicks are only allowed to the head. I understand that punches are allowed only to the body and that kicks are allowed to either the body or the head.

Problem is you stated only kicks to the head. Why say that if you know "they" usually kick to the body? In my opinion, that is something that a troll would do.

Seems to me to be an exploitable loophole. I wonder if I could make it to the Olympic team by knocking opponents out with face punches since you seem to imply it doesn't result in disqualification.

He implies no such thing. You cannot punch your way onto the Olympic Team by knocking people out with face punches. He said that face punches happen during the course of a match under the WTF rules, and that competitors are taught to roll with it. Not the same thing.

I'll go ahead and add this: your average guy in the WTF doesn't punch as well as me. If they did, more matches would end with technical knockouts from punches to the body. I've only fought a couple of WTF style matches, but I did win one with a competitor who was four inches taller and outweighed me by 40 pounds with punches to the body. He refused to come back for the second round.

Sounds like this person was grossly overweight, and most probably grossly out of shape as well. Were the two matches that you fought in your WTF style matches, were they at the same tournament, or at different ones? What happened at the other match? You win or lose that one?

Really? Elite fighters can turtle up with such confidence that it prevents ordinary men from injuring their exposed spine and kidneys? They can rub their chest against an attacker with so much confidence that an ordinary man would be unable to damage their exposed face? Awesome. But this discussion wasn't about the extreme tactics WTF's elites can engage in with impunity.

No it wasn't about that, but it was you who inferred that when confronted with a real self defense situation, that competitors would engage in "extreme tactics" like rubbing chest protectors, which of course is ridiculous.

 

[puunui]

You are correct that I couldn't possibly be as familiar with WTF as mastercole and puunui are. But then, it is not reasonable for them to
automatically assume I am as ignorant about WTF as they make me out to be.

We are not assuming anything. We are going by what you write in your posts, the looking at the opponent's feet and watching for kicks to the head only, touching chests in a self defense situation and so forth. That type of writing doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence in your familiarity or experience with competition or training using the WTF rules.

One would have to be pretty thick in the head to spend 20 years training Korean martial arts without having at least a basic familiarity with WTF.

You have to wonder though, why your instructor would keep you at 1st Dan if you have been diligently training consistently for 20 years. Starting 20 years ago isn't the same as having 20 years of experience.

And I certainly understand how someone who is deeply involved with KKW and/or WTF taekwondo could end up being a little touchy about this subject.

Not touchy, just clearing up tired old misconceptions, which frankly I thought were put to rest here on MT. I guess I was wrong about that.

Please note the central point of my post that brought about this confusing exchange was simply that WTF competitors, like other athletes who train for a specific rule set, "run the risk of developing habits that are bad for the the most likely self-defense scenarios."

But you attempted to make that point by bringing erroneous assertions (touching chests with your opponent with your arms dangling at your sides in a bar for example) to make your point, the implication being that taekwondo competitors must be some kind of idiot. And they would have to be to do what you suggest that they would do in an actual fight scenario, rub chests with their arms dangling by their sides. that to me is unnecessary, and borders on troll behavior, stated simply to draw a negative reaction, especially since you have admitted that you don't think that is what taekwondoin would actually do. Again, if you don't believe it, then why make the erroneous statement in the first place?

This is what I believe to be a truism and I diligently remind my students to be mindful of it.

Your students? I believe you told us earlier that you didn't have a school of your own.

While a top TKD competitor is surely able to finish an attacker with a single roundhouse kick and without doubt has the timing and skill to land that type of devastating blow, what about a yellow belt ... or a blue belt who is NOT a top competitor?

If they are a yellow or blue belt, chances are very high that they are under the legal age for drinking and therefore would not be in a position to rub chests with an attacker with their arms dangling at their sides when someone tries to attack them. Even if the yellow belt was of legal drinking age, chances are that they may not even be learning sparring yet, much less strategies such as rubbing chests with your arms dangling at your sides.

Can we agree that making assumptions about each other and than responding based on those assumptions rather than really listening to what is being said is not the best way to clear up misconceptions?

I agree. But no one is making any assumptions. Instead, people are responding to what you write.

In summation, what I ask is simply this: feel free to argue a point I make ANY time. Please refrain from making assumptions about me or what I am saying and then reacting to that.

Sounds like you need to take your own advice and stop assuming people are personally attacking you.

To have made this effort to not be ignorant of what is going out on outside of my dojang over the last 20 years only to be treated like an armchair martial artist by someone who is showing a pattern of dissecting my posts with a condescending attitude is patently offensive.

Sounds like a personal problem.

 

[Cyriacus]

Wait, wait. Looking at Your opponents feet?
Lead Hand Uppercut > Rear Overhand. Have fun with that.

 

[mastercole]

While I have engaged in full contact training for periods of time on occasion, nearly all of my training over the last 20 years has been in traditional taekwondo and hapkido martial art training.

That is why we will have really different views. My first experiences with martial arts sparring back in the late 1960's were full contact. For over 40 years now I have been a strong advocate for full contact training for self defense purposes. I feel that if ones training is not full contact in nature, it's not good for self defense.

What is Moo Sul Kwan by the way? Who invented it?

Thanks

 

[zDom]

That is why we will have really different views. My first experiences with martial arts sparring back in the late 1960's were full contact. For over 40 years now I have been a strong advocate for full contact training for self defense purposes. I feel that if ones training is not full contact in nature, it's not good for self defense.

What is Moo Sul Kwan by the way? Who invented it?

Thanks

I respect your opinion regarding full contact sparring and believe I understand why you maintain that position. I do see the benefits of full contact training for self defense. For what it's worth, I think anyone who wants to be able to successfully defend needs at least a taste of full contact sparring.

My belief is once a person is familiar with what it feels like to receive full contact strikes, there isn't enough of a need to regularly receive full contact strikes to justify regularly receiving mild concussions and/or broken ribs, broken noses and other injuries that are very often going to be the result of full contact strikes.

Additionally, it takes a special person to show up and get beat on regularly. There are few people who will make taking a full contact beating a part of their longterm lifestyle. Another way to look at it is: If I am training to not get beat up, what good does it do to get beat up on a regular basis to prevent getting beat up? The net result is "more beatings" by going to class — and by people who are good at delivering beatings.

It was a small, select group at our school who were willing to participate in our heavy sparring. The challenge, we found, isn't hitting hard but hitting them hard without hitting them TOO hard in a place that will injure them. A lot of the kicks were full power — but in the abdominal area rather than on the ribs, for example; or to the side of the head or forehead instead of square on the nose.

This is discussed elsewhere on this board, but in sparring we don't "pull" our shots (although I have done so to stop their nose from going "splat" when the move forward into a strike) — we go full speed, full power, but aim with less penetration — at the surface or barely inside that surface ... or a bit deeper if we are going with somebody who is willing and able to receive that full or fuller contact.

Both full contact and controlled, full power, full speed techniques can be trained on a heavy bag. The amount of contact is simply a matter of controlling the "Z" axis, so to speak (depth) in addition to the X and Y of up/down and left/right.


Moo Sul Kwan is the name Lee H. Park gave his martial art organization. He named the organization after the school where he learned hapkido from Won Kwang-wha. Park was known for his hapkido and hapkido was his first love although he was highly ranked in taekwondo and received master rank (5th dan) in Judo from his friend, Bong Yul Shin of the Clayton area in the greater St. Louis area.

I personally say "Moo Sul Kwan taekwondo" because it has ended up not being exactly ITF (no sine wave) even though it has roots in ITF taekwondo; and isn't WTF (even though we do the WTF forms).

I trained for about four years in both hapkido and taekwondo, then took a break from HKD classes to focus on my first dan test (I think it was 1995 .. I'd have to go back and look at my certificate, but March 1995 sounds about right). I got married and took some time off to adjust to married life (a few months). Mr. Dunn moved to Florida, so I accepted an invitation to work out and help teach at the school established by Tim Wall, a close friend and another one of Dunn's blackbelts who was senior to me. Wall became part of Ed Sell's Chung Do Kwan so after a couple of years of a training and teaching, I tested to 2nd dan in that organization. On that test I scored what I was told was a record 96 percent. Could have been 94. Somewhere in there.

About a dozen years ago I decided to retire from taekwondo and return to hapkido training under Mike Morton, who was taught by Park, a student of Won Kwang-Wha who learned first from Bok Suh Sub and later directly from Choi Yong Sul.

Nobody advances through the ranks under Morton very fast. I have been advised that my final requirement to be eligible for my second dan test in hapkido is to present my instructor with the rough draft of my history of the Moo Sul Kwan and Park. I have admittedly been dragging my feet as I want to turn in something less rough and am not excited about the possibility of being invited to endure another grueling dan rank test in hapkido just yet.

I did "come out of retirement" in TKD briefly to serve as an interim head instructor for the Sikeston Moo Sul Kwan last year from January until the fall but have re-retired Like Park, hapkido is my thing. Unlike Park, I will never achieve high ranking status.

 

[mastercole]

I respect your opinion regarding full contact sparring and believe I understand why you maintain that position. I do see the benefits of full contact training for self defense. For what it's worth, I think anyone who wants to be able to successfully defend needs at least a taste of full contact sparring.

My belief is once a person is familiar with what it feels like to receive full contact strikes, there isn't enough of a need to regularly receive full contact strikes to justify regularly receiving mild concussions and/or broken ribs, broken noses and other injuries that are very often going to be the result of full contact strikes.

I see. That is different from my experience. For one I feel if the defensive movement training is excellent, the full contact trainee will usually not get many, or any of these types of injuries during their training, or sparring matches in full contact. If they train in full contact methods correctly for years, day in and day out, intelligently, they will develop a great skill of defensive body movement that is in my opinion the most important physical skills a person can develop for self defense. This is the skill that ELITE WTF fighters learn to master and is a big reason that training in the WTF modern training methods for competition is excellent for self defense.

Additionally, it takes a special person to show up and get beat on regularly. There are few people who will make taking a full contact beating a part of their longterm lifestyle. Another way to look at it is: If I am training to not get beat up, what good does it do to get beat up on a regular basis to prevent getting beat up? The net result is "more beatings" by going to class — and by people who are good at delivering beatings.

The Buddha said that we should strive to overcome fear, as we should all internal obstacles. That takes two things. An excellent student to meet an excellent instructor. Taekwondo's modern training methods for WTF competitions is intelligent and safe. No one gets beat on. What participants learn is how to use correct defensive movement, that deflects, redirects and carries the body with the power of the blows. Skilled instructors teach it step by step. An excellent students follows exactly their teacher incremental implementation of more complex training methods until it reaches the point where the participant is now dealing with full force, full contact blows, and delivering them, with no injuries because the have masters the principles of defensive movement. Many Taekwondo instructors, including me, have been successful in teaching hundreds of students how to achieve this skill.

It was a small, select group at our school who were willing to participate in our heavy sparring. The challenge, we found, isn't hitting hard but hitting them hard without hitting them TOO hard in a place that will injure them. A lot of the kicks were full power — but in the abdominal area rather than on the ribs, for example; or to the side of the head or forehead instead of square on the nose.

Correct principles of defensive body movement solves these problems. These principles can only be learned via methods of training for full contact, before the full contact sparring actually takes place at all. Other wise it is like throwing a person in the deep water and telling them to sink or swim and they must figure it out on the spot. That is how people get broken ribs, busted noses, knockouts, etc.

This is discussed elsewhere on this board, but in sparring we don't "pull" our shots (although I have done so to stop their nose from going "splat" when the move forward into a strike) — we go full speed, full power, but aim with less penetration — at the surface or barely inside that surface ... or a bit deeper if we are going with somebody who is willing and able to receive that full or fuller contact.

I find this detrimental to not just the attacker, but fully detrimental to the person being attacked in such a way. The absences of a full contact penetrating force leaves the participant being struck with a false threat, visually, timing, distance and reaction wise. They must learn the defensive body movement principles and be able to consistently apply them against the actually full force blow.

Both full contact and controlled, full power, full speed techniques can be trained on a heavy bag. The amount of contact is simply a matter of controlling the "Z" axis, so to speak (depth) in addition to the X and Y of up/down and left/right.

I disagree that there is a such thing as controlled full power in regards to kicking or punching someones body, or any type of target. Backing off on the penetration factor of a full force strike fundamentally changes the technique and everything related to the technique, for both the attacker, and the attacked. Removing the true dangerous intention of the strike, removes the true danger. And we need that danger to be real to train real.

Moo Sul Kwan is the name Lee H. Park gave his martial art organization. He named the organization after the school where he learned hapkido from Won Kwang-wha. Park was known for his hapkido and hapkido was his first love although he was highly ranked in taekwondo and received master rank (5th dan) in Judo from his friend, Bong Yul Shin of the Clayton area in the greater St. Louis area.

I personally say "Moo Sul Kwan taekwondo" because it has ended up not being exactly ITF (no sine wave) even though it has roots in ITF taekwondo; and isn't WTF (even though we do the WTF forms).

A fact you might find of interest. Actually nether Kukkiwon or the WTF created the Poomsae. The Korea Taekwondo Association did, and the ITF had it's technical committee deputy director participate in the creation of the those Poomsae. The same Poomsae adopted by the Kukkiwon, and endorsed by the WTF for Poomsae competition. So the ITF helped create what you call the WTF Poomsae.

Ed Sell's Chung Do Kwan

GM Sell is a really nice guy. I have never meet him in the USA, our home country. However we see each other in person at events in Korea and talk on the phone. Besides being the first non-Korean born Taekwondoin to achieve 9th Dan from both Chung Do Kwan and Kukkiwon, he was a signer on the document that formed the World Taekwondo Federation. I am certainly very fortunate for knowing such a man. Any discussion with him is an opportunity to learn.

 

[zDom]

I see. That is different from my experience. For one I feel if the defensive movement training is excellent, the full contact trainee will usually not get many, or any of these types of injuries during their training, or sparring matches in full contact. If they train in full contact methods correctly for years, day in and day out, intelligently, they will develop a great skill of defensive body movement that is in my opinion the most important physical skills a person can develop for self defense. This is the skill that ELITE WTF fighters learn to master and is a big reason that training in the WTF modern training methods for competition is excellent for self defense.

I believe I understand what you are talking and agree that defensive movement training combined with a chest protector to dissapate force make training full contact to the body safe. I also agree that those movements are excellent self defense tools. We often strap on chest protectors and do contact that is very close to "trying for the knockout to the body" to get experience in the same defensive body movement.

Do you ever spar without chest protectors (to experience the difference in moving without one on), and if so -- do you adjust contact?

The issue of head contact is mitigated by allowing only feet to the head. What happens when you get a head hunter at a low rank who is significantly better than his peers and is able to regularly deliver full contact head shots?

The Buddha said that we should strive to overcome fear, as we should all internal obstacles. That takes two things. An excellent student to meet an excellent instructor. Taekwondo's modern training methods for WTF competitions is intelligent and safe. No one gets beat on. What participants learn is how to use correct defensive movement, that deflects, redirects and carries the body with the power of the blows. Skilled instructors teach it step by step. An excellent students follows exactly their teacher incremental implementation of more complex training methods until it reaches the point where the participant is now dealing with full force, full contact blows, and delivering them, with no injuries because the have masters the principles of defensive movement. Many Taekwondo instructors, including me, have been successful in teaching hundreds of students how to achieve this skill.

Correct principles of defensive body movement solves these problems. These principles can only be learned via methods of training for full contact, before the full contact sparring actually takes place at all. Other wise it is like throwing a person in the deep water and telling them to sink or swim and they must figure it out on the spot. That is how people get broken ribs, busted noses, knockouts, etc.

So it isn't full contact all the time, if I understand you correctly, and not right away. You are saying that it IS a "full contact sport" and that students are trained and moved toward a point (brown belt? black belt? varies depending on the students ability and conditioning?) where they are regularly engaging in full contact sparring -- right?

I find this detrimental to not just the attacker, but fully detrimental to the person being attacked in such a way. The absences of a full contact penetrating force leaves the participant being struck with a false threat, visually, timing, distance and reaction wise. They must learn the defensive body movement principles and be able to consistently apply them against the actually full force blow.

I would agree this could be a problem if only very light contact is used. I think heavy contact is enough of a true threat to foster the learning of defensive body movement principles and to apply them.

I disagree that there is a such thing as controlled full power in regards to kicking or punching someones body, or any type of target. Backing off on the penetration factor of a full force strike fundamentally changes the technique and everything related to the technique, for both the attacker, and the attacked. Removing the true dangerous intention of the strike, removes the true danger. And we need that danger to be real to train real.

It only, in my experience, changes the feel of impact. There definitely has to be training with full penetration and power included in training (body shields, heavy bags, some heavy sparring with chest protectors) so they get a feel for delivering full power strikes. There is no doubt it is a critical part of training. But there is a benefit to the type of control I've described: Everybody misses, on occassion (when sparring an elite athlete who trains to make misses happen by defensive body movement, for example). I have seen even elite athletes losing their balance, falling down, because they are committed to making full contact and unprepared for missing resistance of a successfully landed strike.

A fact you might find of interest. Actually nether Kukkiwon or the WTF created the Poomsae. The Korea Taekwondo Association did, and the ITF had it's technical committee deputy director participate in the creation of the those Poomsae. The same Poomsae adopted by the Kukkiwon, and endorsed by the WTF for Poomsae competition. So the ITF helped create what you call the WTF Poomsae.

I never really thought about it, but that is interesting.

GM Sell is a really nice guy. I have never meet him in the USA, our home country. However we see each other in person at events in Korea and talk on the phone. Besides being the first non-Korean born Taekwondoin to achieve 9th Dan from both Chung Do Kwan and Kukkiwon, he was a signer on the document that formed the World Taekwondo Federation. I am certainly very fortunate for knowing such a man. Any discussion with him is an opportunity to learn.

I learned good things from him. I am honored to have his name on one of my certificates. The panel for my 2nd dan TKD test consisted of: GM Ed Sell; GM Brenda Sell : ) The only two candidates on the floor were my younger brother and me. The Sells are good people.



I think, should we ever have the opportunity to visit each other's schools, we would each develop a deeper respect for the other's training methods. I have no doubt you have some fine athletes. I think you would be impressed by some of ours. I also think we would both go home confident that our own way is better

 

[CMKJeon-Sa]

Before GGM Lee passed away he wanted his legacy to be passed on. His last students were taught the forms he wanted practiced. While I did not have the opportunity to train with him. GM Jon Weidenman was one of his last students. He would be able to give you more insight on what GGM Lee wanted for the future of Chang Moo Kwan. You can contact him at http://changmookwan.net/ . I understand GGM Lee was an ambassador for Taekwondo throughout his life. The goal being making Taekwondo worldwide. That goal was accomplished through focusing on the sport aspect. While sacrificing some of the traditional aspects. I ran across this memo from 2007 from GM Sun-Koo Kim http://www.wtkmd.org/new2/board/viewbody.php?code=ishop_board_bbs&page=&number=114&keyfield=&key=

Again when I mention power I'm referring to not holding back.

 

[mastercole]

Before GGM Lee passed away he wanted his legacy to be passed on. His last students were taught the forms he wanted practiced. While I did not have the opportunity to train with him. GM Jon Weidenman was one of his last students. He would be able to give you more insight on what GGM Lee wanted for the future of Chang Moo Kwan. You can contact him at http://changmookwan.net/

GM LEE Nam Suk and I had exchanged letters over the years, even shortly before his death. I still have those letters. In them he states his full support for Kukkiwon Taekwondo, which he helped build. He also was very proud of his Chang Moo Kwan and sent me some philosophy documents stating that these were the traditions of Chang Moo Kwan. GM LEE Nam Suk's legacy lives on in every Taekwondoin who practices Kukkiwon Taekwondo. He never designated to anyone single person, or group to continue on the old physical curriculum of Chang Moo Kwan, he did however endorse GM KIM Soon Bae as he next Chang Moo Kwan President because he felt GM Kim was the right man to carry on Chang Moo Kwan's support for Kukkiwon Taekwondo, which GM Kim has done his whole life. I know this because GM Kim said so. Here is a photo of GM Kim and I taken in 2008, Seoul, Korea.

[/IMG]

I understand GGM Lee was an ambassador for Taekwondo throughout his life. The goal being making Taekwondo worldwide. That goal was accomplished through focusing on the sport aspect. While sacrificing some of the traditional aspects.

You might be confusing the WTF with the Kukkiwon. Not the same thing.

That would be a misunderstanding of what GM LEE Nam Suk worked for his whole life, which until the end of his life, he fully supported Kukkiwon. He told me so. When GM LEE Nam Suk visited various nations, he never taught about the sport aspect of Taekwondo, thought he encouraged Taekwondoin who were interested to get involved with the WTF. GM LEE Nam Suk was a Poomsae expert. He loved to teach Taekwondo via Poomsae, Poomsae that he helped create by working closely with Chang Moo Kwan co-founder GM KIM Soon Bae (pictured above with me) who was a member of the KTA Poomsae Committee. You can see in the photo on GM Weideman's website that GM Lee is teaching the Kukkiwon Poomsae.

I ran across this memo from 2007 from GM Sun-Koo Kim http://www.wtkmd.org/new2/board/viewbody.php?code=ishop_board_bbs&page=&number=114&keyfield=&key=

Here is a photo of Chang Moo Kwan Vice-President KIM Ho Jae and I from that same website, taken in 2010. We are at Taekwon-Moodo Headquarters in Seoul. He currently holds all the records of Chang Moo Kwan from it's beginning. He was also the longest serving Dean of the Kukkiwon Instructors Academy.

[/IMG]

GM KIM Sun Koo's memo is not suggesting that Chang Moo Kwan go backwards to its old curriculum. He is suggesting that Chang Moo Kwan revitalize it's self as a social club that supports Kukkiwon and the WTF. He is saying that the social club suffered neglect because of all the energy that Chang Moo Kwan members, like all other kwan members, put into helping spread Taekwondo via whatever vehicle. If oyu would like to know for sure you can always ask GM KIM Sun Koo or GM KIM Ho Jae, they will tell you the same things they told me. Here is a picture of them together at a recent Chang Moo Kwan celebration at Taekwon-Moodo Headquarters with other Chang Moo Kwan seniors, including my Taekkyon instructor who is also from Chang Moo Kwan, GM LEE Yong Bok.

[/IMG]

Picture are GM KIM Sun Koo far left, GM KIM Ho Jae center and GM LEE Yong Bok (my Taekkyon teacher) far right.

Also here is a link to a photo of GM KIM Ho Jae and I earlier in 1998 at the 1st Foreign Instructor Qualification Course at Kukkiwon, where he served as Dean of the Academy for many years.

http://www.lacancha.com/alcole.html

 

[puunui]

It only, in my experience, changes the feel of impact. There definitely has to be training with full penetration and power included in training (body shields, heavy bags, some heavy sparring with chest protectors) so they get a feel for delivering full power strikes.

You left out the most important tool for full contact training, which is hogu drills (different that "some heavy sparring with chest protectors). Hogu drills give the opportunity to deliver full force strikes on a moving target safely.

I learned good things from him. I am honored to have his name on one of my certificates. The panel for my 2nd dan TKD test consisted of: GM Ed Sell; GM Brenda Sell : ) The only two candidates on the floor were my younger brother and me. The Sells are good people.

I first had contact with GM Sell in 1987, which was the year I was first appointed a Chung Do Kwan Regional Director. I most recently spoke to him regarding the rumors of the new Chung Do Kwan Jang, which turned out to be false.

 

[Archtkd]

[/IMG]

GM KIM Sun Koo's memo is not suggesting that Chang Moo Kwan go backwards to its old curriculum. He is suggesting that Chang Moo Kwan revitalize it's self as a social club that supports Kukkiwon and the WTF. He is saying that the social club suffered neglect because of all the energy that Chang Moo Kwan members, like all other kwan members, put into helping spread Taekwondo via whatever vehicle. If oyu would like to know for sure you can always ask GM KIM Sun Koo or GM KIM Ho Jae, they will tell you the same things they told me. Here is a picture of them together at a recent Chang Moo Kwan celebration at Taekwon-Moodo Headquarters with other Chang Moo Kwan seniors, including my Taekkyon instructor who is also from Chang Moo Kwan, GM LEE Yong Bok.

[/IMG]

Picture are GM KIM Sun Koo far left, GM KIM Ho Jae center and GM LEE Yong Bok (my Taekkyon teacher) far right.

Also here is a link to a photo of GM KIM Ho Jae and I earlier in 1998 at the 1st Foreign Instructor Qualification Course at Kukkiwon, where he served as Dean of the Academy for many years.

http://www.lacancha.com/alcole.html

GM Cole: I am surprised my teacher GM Duk Gun Kwon in not in that picture. When was the event and where was it held?

 

[mastercole]

GM Cole: I am surprised my teacher GM Duk Gun Kwon in not in that picture. When was the event and where was it held?

Now that I think about it, it was not so recent 2007 feels like last year to me. Like the Chinese saying "enjoy yourself, it's later than you think"

It was April of 2007 at the World Taekwon-moo-do Headquarters in Seoul. North of the Han River, on your way to Dong Dae Moon, or Itaewon, over the 2nd Han River bridge. The tall guy is the Kazakhstan Ambassador to Korea. He signed a branch agreement with GM KIM Ho Jae at the event.

 

[andyjeffries]

That is Peyton Quinn's opinion...That is exactly what Peyton Quinn talks about in his book.

What book are you referring to? I'm always up for expanding my horizons with new books, but I saw on Amazon he has a few books (each with a few editions).

Thanks.