Chamber
- Thread starter Wey
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kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
The position of chambering' the punches beside the hip or at chest level is not unique to okinawan karate. It is found in many martial arts and especially double weapons and sword. From the practical standpoint, it is a vital base and starting point for a variety of moves and especially strikes. Actually, when one chambers one side automatically one is opening that side. By opening i mean one is forming perfect or proud posture on that side. Although it is obviously possible and indeed good stretch to chambr both sides, actually, the counter motion is important too. Basically, when one chambers, one has the elbow behind oneself forming the proud posture. The countermotion is when the elbow is in front. Solve et coagula. Cannot bind without severing and cannot sever without binding. -This is my way.
The power of the bind is in the meridian of the big toe. The cut is the line of the small toe. So that one could say that water is the left toe and fire the right , right small being the earth. Whatever but this jives with other teachings real well. Don't be fooled because with small variations same positions can become internally very different. And when one aims for a certain goal one must be careful not to stick too much with one idea without constantly rechecking and examining if any other forces are countering in a negative way.
The severed proud side will be a superior striking tool though even if the tanden is cut and the energy is disturbed. The bind will be rather unflexable but has weird strength of monsterlike hunching shoulder and the energy will be intense. The sever is proud like the techniques of heaven but the bind is slightly deformed yet vital techniques of earth. All good posture martial arts concentrate on the perfect heaven posture. Some other martial arts use the eath power with great success.
The sever comes to be through the striking, working,art cutting and favours crushing palmstrikes, sword and fine artwork. The bind is actually solid, comfortable and lazy. The bind makes the shoulder truly rise from the tanden and spine, the sever will keep the shoulder relaxed mostly lowered but also fake raised whereby the connection is weak and it is eventually bad for the shoulder-that some swordsmaster have even destroyed their shoulder to the point of not being able to use them- so the bind is not more unhealthy than the sever.
The severing in the hands is kenin, a swordhand with forefinger and middle extended but also the single stretched pinky (held low). To raise it would start to bind. The thumbs are also very important especially the knuckle joint closest to tip-bend in or stretch out to sever. This thumb use corresponds to the lotus and diamond fists. Again, same motions can take on a life of their own-it's all in the tanden.
How can one unite tiger and dragon without extreme luck or excellent work?
I know this answer is prolly more spacey and wild than what was asked, but the chambering is a big deal i think and in asia it is a movement that often is synonamous with martial arts. But posture is important in many arts. It gets even funkier with head and chin position, jaw and shoulder hip dislocation, eye use, etc....popping for power and energy.
The power of the bind is in the meridian of the big toe. The cut is the line of the small toe. So that one could say that water is the left toe and fire the right , right small being the earth. Whatever but this jives with other teachings real well. Don't be fooled because with small variations same positions can become internally very different. And when one aims for a certain goal one must be careful not to stick too much with one idea without constantly rechecking and examining if any other forces are countering in a negative way.
The severed proud side will be a superior striking tool though even if the tanden is cut and the energy is disturbed. The bind will be rather unflexable but has weird strength of monsterlike hunching shoulder and the energy will be intense. The sever is proud like the techniques of heaven but the bind is slightly deformed yet vital techniques of earth. All good posture martial arts concentrate on the perfect heaven posture. Some other martial arts use the eath power with great success.
The sever comes to be through the striking, working,art cutting and favours crushing palmstrikes, sword and fine artwork. The bind is actually solid, comfortable and lazy. The bind makes the shoulder truly rise from the tanden and spine, the sever will keep the shoulder relaxed mostly lowered but also fake raised whereby the connection is weak and it is eventually bad for the shoulder-that some swordsmaster have even destroyed their shoulder to the point of not being able to use them- so the bind is not more unhealthy than the sever.
The severing in the hands is kenin, a swordhand with forefinger and middle extended but also the single stretched pinky (held low). To raise it would start to bind. The thumbs are also very important especially the knuckle joint closest to tip-bend in or stretch out to sever. This thumb use corresponds to the lotus and diamond fists. Again, same motions can take on a life of their own-it's all in the tanden.
How can one unite tiger and dragon without extreme luck or excellent work?
I know this answer is prolly more spacey and wild than what was asked, but the chambering is a big deal i think and in asia it is a movement that often is synonamous with martial arts. But posture is important in many arts. It gets even funkier with head and chin position, jaw and shoulder hip dislocation, eye use, etc....popping for power and energy.
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Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
Wey,
I agree completely with Seasoned and Victor Smith they are right on target. What they are describing is called hiki te (引き手) or pulling hand.
Also as already mentioned Okinawa is much different than Japan even today its different. The japanese never had a weapons ban placed upon them the Okinawan's did. Its a fascinating story to me. All the history of Karate and Kobudo.
I agree completely with Seasoned and Victor Smith they are right on target. What they are describing is called hiki te (引き手) or pulling hand.
Also as already mentioned Okinawa is much different than Japan even today its different. The japanese never had a weapons ban placed upon them the Okinawan's did. Its a fascinating story to me. All the history of Karate and Kobudo.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
Hikite...my uncle used to call it Fliegenschnapper-flysnatcher. A move you can see many weathermen do as they do their forcasting.
j
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Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
??? you lost me
If you really want to find out why the chamber, you might need to check out the chinese martial arts, since it is one of the mixes of karate, and its one of the oldest martial arts. Not sure if the indian martial arts chamber also, but that would also be a good research subject as well, since its been said indian martial arts is the oldest form of organized combat, and some legends say kung fu came from india (both of these statements are controversial).
The Japanese and Okinawans can interpret for themselves, but I would imagine you would want to try to find a source.
The Japanese and Okinawans can interpret for themselves, but I would imagine you would want to try to find a source.
To my mind Seasoned had it right in his first post. In a fighting stance you would never stand with a fist chambered. You would have your hands in front ready to provide a defence or offence. The chambered hand in kihon is to develop muscle memory. Here is a link to a bunkai clip of Taira Sensei of Goju Ryu karate, in Okinawa. In the first part of the clip you will see him controlling his opponent by constantly pulling him in. These grabs coincide with the chambered hand positions in the kata.
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Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
Please excuse me for saying this but you sound like you have never trained with the Okinawan's. They are the source for karate and they had a fighting system of their own before the influence from China. Also please do not mistake this, japanese karate and okinawan karate are different even in their similarities.
Okinawa praised their chinese influence in their karate. Originally, Karate to them meant "china-hand", it was Funakoshi that changed it for japan. How eactly am I confusing japanese and okinawan martial arts?
Chinese martial arts have chambered punches, and there is more writings and historians that support that chinese martial arts influenced karate, or Ti (as I am sure you are referring to when you mean okinawan unarmed combat that existed) then there is to say Ti influencing the old arts of chinese martial arts. This is the reason of my statement, I dont have to train in Okinawan styles to have learned that.
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
Yes I understand that the chinese styles use the chambered position in their styles. Look closely at Chin'na and the Okinawan expoent of that called Tuite.
Yes I was referring to Ti and the original name of karate did mean china hand it was toudi. The kanji for it read as so.
唐 (refers to the T'ang Dynasty in China)
手 (read te in Japanese and di in Uchinaguchi)
The reason I made the comment about Okinawa Karate being different then Japanese karate is because the focus even today is different, that was never more apperant to me until I was in Okinawa a couple of months ago.
Naha-te which became Goju Ryu had a much greater influence from China then Shuri-te had. Shuri-te or Shorin Ryu was influenced to some degree much different than that of Goju Ryu. If you look at the applications you can see the difference in the influences and what chinese styles and how much of what had a influence.
Oh also just to clarify I didn't say train in the Okinawan styles I said have trained with the Okinawan's regardless of style.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
I think when one does a side kick among others, one also does pretty much the same pulling back of the hand though further away from body. Kicking is also great, especially speed kicking and stretched leg.
Aside from the speed, i think one can do some powerful lunging body check style strikes too, like in the one video posted above. Also the jab packs a fair bit of power. But i think the main strength is still the faster more dexterous side, although one could argue that it simply goes hand in hand. Plus one could achieve 'balance'
-But to really get on topic and sorry for drifting so wildly...it is a risk to lower ones hands and one would want them up at face level for defence as well as for offence. But i have seen real fights where the fighters really do keep their fists to their hips and viciously take down multiple persons each time returning the fist- to the hip although at a distance then closing in quick. Have one hand out with the chambered side leg back, so standing more sideways, it's not all that bad. But i wouldn't want to be facing someone at close range with my hands down, because it is close to impossible to block faster than the attack can reach you or get past.
One could say that the chamber position is a fundemental aspect of traditional martial arts.
In karate basically all moves are in unicin. People who have never learned karate blocks and punches would most likely not be able to even do the motion. Would need a bunch of tries for most people. It's a coordination thing where left and right are in unicin so that when one block goes out and one punch returns to the chamber, then to whatever other postion or strike or block, eventually even reaching a state where the two motions become one in the mind.
In this regard the karate ways are probably closest to twosworded techniques.
I find the beauty of twosworded techniques is that the two move as one yet eventually can even be quite independant and yet still one. Meaning that if that state of oneness of the two weapons is achieved, by simple concentrating on a further happening, one can actually concentrate on 3 things at the same time.
j
Aside from the speed, i think one can do some powerful lunging body check style strikes too, like in the one video posted above. Also the jab packs a fair bit of power. But i think the main strength is still the faster more dexterous side, although one could argue that it simply goes hand in hand. Plus one could achieve 'balance'
-But to really get on topic and sorry for drifting so wildly...it is a risk to lower ones hands and one would want them up at face level for defence as well as for offence. But i have seen real fights where the fighters really do keep their fists to their hips and viciously take down multiple persons each time returning the fist- to the hip although at a distance then closing in quick. Have one hand out with the chambered side leg back, so standing more sideways, it's not all that bad. But i wouldn't want to be facing someone at close range with my hands down, because it is close to impossible to block faster than the attack can reach you or get past.
One could say that the chamber position is a fundemental aspect of traditional martial arts.
In karate basically all moves are in unicin. People who have never learned karate blocks and punches would most likely not be able to even do the motion. Would need a bunch of tries for most people. It's a coordination thing where left and right are in unicin so that when one block goes out and one punch returns to the chamber, then to whatever other postion or strike or block, eventually even reaching a state where the two motions become one in the mind.
In this regard the karate ways are probably closest to twosworded techniques.
I find the beauty of twosworded techniques is that the two move as one yet eventually can even be quite independant and yet still one. Meaning that if that state of oneness of the two weapons is achieved, by simple concentrating on a further happening, one can actually concentrate on 3 things at the same time.
j
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Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
Keep in mind that in karate not all techniques are what they seem. You see the surface function of it but not always the underlying application. Karate kata was created in such a way that it resemble Ryukyuan dance to help conceal its purpose. Even today in Okinawa they will tell you kata without proper power, stance, application and focus is nothing but dance.
What you have described "one hand out with the chambered side leg back, so standing more sideways" sounds more like a cocked fist than a true chamber. Pulling the fist back to generate more power in the strike is very common in any fighting situation but this is totally different to chamber.
"When one block goes out and one punch returns to the chamber, then to whatever other postion or strike or block, eventually even reaching a state where the two motions become one in the mind". I have never seen, nor could I imagine, anyone fighting like this. To me that would be robotic and without fluidity, plus your defence would be compromised. I don't believe that the chambered hand was ever intended to be used this way.
Another thing to consider is this. If you believe that the chambered hand is a basic part of fighting, what chamber should be used? In kata, depending on application, chamber can be clenched or open hand and palm up or palm down. Kamae, or ready position, prior to kumite has both hands up, in front of the body, not one or both hands chambered.
"One could say that the chamber position is a fundamental aspect of traditional martial arts." I believe chamber is a fundamental aspect of training traditional martial arts but it has very little to do with the actual delivery of the punch, even though a punch can be delivered from the chamber position.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
Actually, i do think that two sworded moves and karate movements both have to start out robotically. After training and experience it becomes fluid and the timing is adjusted to whatever situation, but in the mind it can all happen more or less as one. Firstly, one wants to have ones arms in the right position for defence and offence and secondly one would want to also move in such a way so that one is ready for an attack anytime and that one does not get one's own arms in the way or collide swords.
I still say chamber is chamber be it to the side a bit or not, same even for hassounokamae depending one how far you pull back, or ninjutsus dokonokamae, it is essentially the freeing of the shoulder and readying of a strike or block to achieve great speed, momentum. If you do it with open hand or with fist is secondary to the draw(although i feel the open hand will chamber better and more completely-
A boxers jab or a shoulder slam is not chambered but a good boxers upercut probably would be. The uppercut movement like or the back of the hand facing down is a chamber. Same when the fencer holds sword out with back of hand towards ground. I've seen picture of bobi no kamae and it looked chambered. Even the taking the hat off oldschool gesture is a bit of a chamber and then some-probably also the courtsy bow. Most people will write with a bit of a chamber in them . Anything that requires dexterity could be.
The dexterity takes lots of energy and concentration is is somewhat unstable and often bad for the shoulder, but still the fastest and most effective for striking.
Bruce lee would stand sideways not chambered and with twitching movement with his lead punch would lunge out and his end position is fairly chambered, internally speaking... you can visibly see this.
j
I still say chamber is chamber be it to the side a bit or not, same even for hassounokamae depending one how far you pull back, or ninjutsus dokonokamae, it is essentially the freeing of the shoulder and readying of a strike or block to achieve great speed, momentum. If you do it with open hand or with fist is secondary to the draw(although i feel the open hand will chamber better and more completely-
I don't see it as being so different. More than often, most will use this. Basically, if the chamber is really chambered, internally it may be still chambered when the punch is out. So the chambering i mean is in the posture and internal positions. So if you sever through chambering and severing of certain meridians, you will always be chambered practically no matter what you do.
A boxers jab or a shoulder slam is not chambered but a good boxers upercut probably would be. The uppercut movement like or the back of the hand facing down is a chamber. Same when the fencer holds sword out with back of hand towards ground. I've seen picture of bobi no kamae and it looked chambered. Even the taking the hat off oldschool gesture is a bit of a chamber and then some-probably also the courtsy bow. Most people will write with a bit of a chamber in them . Anything that requires dexterity could be.
The dexterity takes lots of energy and concentration is is somewhat unstable and often bad for the shoulder, but still the fastest and most effective for striking.
Bruce lee would stand sideways not chambered and with twitching movement with his lead punch would lunge out and his end position is fairly chambered, internally speaking... you can visibly see this.
j
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