Chain punching

[Nabakatsu]

So, I've been doing 2 rounds of 10 mns of straight chain punching a day for past 4-5 days or so, and I have a question.. I know this is something I should be able to figure out for myself, but so far I haven't had much success!
I've been taxing the heck out of my shoulders within the first 2 minutes every time, which makes it really painful to continue, I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to how I can refrain from using them as much, thanks in advance!

 

[mook jong man]

Don't worry about it , my shoulders used to lock up as well when I first started . It takes time young grasshopper , for the muscles and joints to become accustomed to Wing Chun training and learn to relax.

But having said that , you are doing a hell of a lot of punching there , and the muscles are still probably fatigued and sore from the last days punching effort .

How fast are you going ? Maybe you should slow down your punching and concentrate on each one making sure it is perfect and done in a relaxed way instead of doing thousands and thousands .

So cut down the volume a bit , slow them down a tad and make sure each one is perfect , If you like to go fast one thing I do is to throw out a quick burst say every 20 or 30 punches .

I think a lot of practitioners would have sore shoulders from doing that many punches everyday to be honest.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Hehehehe, thats probably just what I needed to hear, I read your post to another newb about slowing down and making them more perfect, I've been trying to do that a bit, but I want strong arms too! hehehe, I'll make 1 10 mn session slower and more perfect, and the other one full force
thanks good sir!

 

[mook jong man]

Hehehehe, thats probably just what I needed to hear, I read your post to another newb about slowing down and making them more perfect, I've been trying to do that a bit, but I want strong arms too! hehehe, I'll make 1 10 mn session slower and more perfect, and the other one full force
thanks good sir!

No worries mate , we are all newbs compared to someone .
There are people around who can make me look like I started yesterday .

 

[Nabakatsu]

I'm going to ask my Sifu about this when I get the chance this Wednesday, but I figured I'd ask now too! when you punch where are you punching from, what are the exact mechanics of your punch? I've toyed around with various muscle groups, such as the elbow, middle and upper areas of the tricep, shoulder, even tried the bicep and forearm just to see what would happen/how it felt, hehe.. any type of punching information is welcome, even drills such as defecting into bong sau after a punch ect ect ect, creativity is most welcome!

 

[bs10927]

So, I've been doing 2 rounds of 10 mns of straight chain punching a day for past 4-5 days or so, and I have a question.. I know this is something I should be able to figure out for myself, but so far I haven't had much success!
I've been taxing the heck out of my shoulders within the first 2 minutes every time, which makes it really painful to continue, I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to how I can refrain from using them as much, thanks in advance!

i know your pain. lol. what i do is alternate the rounds with practicing the motion of Luk sao by myself, then switch back to punching.

 

[AceHBK]

Good Topic!

Thanks to Skinters who made a thread called 'WC clips' I have learned to slow down my chain punches and get the mechanics down. One of the clips the guy talks about and enforces the mechanics of it. Making sure that you and extending and snapping your wrist so that you have proper bone alignment.

I can tell you, it is easier said than done. Lucky I am just beginning so it is easier correcting it now rathe than a year from now. I notice many people don't lock that wrist for proper bone alignment. Keep going slow and making sure you are doing it correctly.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Acehbk wrote in the kick penetration thread:

It makes me wonder how much kicking techniques have been lost in WC. I would like to believe that there use to be a lot of leg work used but now it seems like WC is pretty much hands and a occaional push kick.

Snapping that wrist isn't something easily done. It takes a lot of practice. I am seeing that now. It has me looking at all those youtube links where you see guys doing chain punches at 50mph.....as that guy said in that youtube video about locking the wrist upon impact.. "all that machine gun rubbish." lol He is right, if you are doing it correctly you can't have these super fast punches.


which made me think about what is actually more useful, you can probably land close to 2x more attacks by using the "machine gun rubbish" do you think your hitting twice as hard by using the wrist in this way, or more so, and thus gaining power? would damage even add up in this manner? for example if i hit you 20 times at 100% power, or 40 times at 50% power, within the same duration would you consider these to be equal, either way I'd like to hear why you believe this!

 

[Hagakure]

Acehbk wrote in the kick penetration thread:

It makes me wonder how much kicking techniques have been lost in WC. I would like to believe that there use to be a lot of leg work used but now it seems like WC is pretty much hands and a occaional push kick.

Snapping that wrist isn't something easily done. It takes a lot of practice. I am seeing that now. It has me looking at all those youtube links where you see guys doing chain punches at 50mph.....as that guy said in that youtube video about locking the wrist upon impact.. "all that machine gun rubbish." lol He is right, if you are doing it correctly you can't have these super fast punches.


which made me think about what is actually more useful, you can probably land close to 2x more attacks by using the "machine gun rubbish" do you think your hitting twice as hard by using the wrist in this way, or more so, and thus gaining power? would damage even add up in this manner? for example if i hit you 20 times at 100% power, or 40 times at 50% power, within the same duration would you consider these to be equal, either way I'd like to hear why you believe this!

I think this boils down to energy and efficiency. Effectively, what's the point in hitting, or trying to hit someone 40 times, when it can be done in 20, or less? I think a flurry of very powerful, direct punches, can and in my experience, does work. 40 punches that amount to little more than slaps, just seems... well, daft.

 

[chisauking]

First of all, the guy in the video didn't say chain punching was rubbish; just the way some people apply it is rubbish. You must spend a little time in viewing the video before jumping to conclusions.

Second, if you view the lin-wan-keun as an absolute power punch, then you don't understand its value or use.

Every one knows you can kill someone if you hit them over the head with a very heavy sledghammer, but try using that hammer in a versatile way. Most people would have problems swinging it over their heads, let alone try to hit someone mobile with it. However, give them a tiny hammer, and they can do the same damage if they smash your eye or nose repeatly with it.

Another good analogy is a very light foil and a very heavy excalibur. Sure, you can kill me IF you can left the excalibur and manaage to stab me with it, but more likely than not, the speed in which I can use the foil to stab you and prevent you using the excalibur is great.

In the same way, chain punching uses the same principles. It's not the most powerful punch in the world, but it's fast and accurate and damaging if one uses it the way it was meant to be used, and it can beat many other knockout punches to the bell.

However, it is important to note, in no way is the lin-wan-kuen weak when performed by a competent practitioner.

At the end of the day, it doesn't take a very powerful punch to inflict damage providing one hits the right places. It's up to the user to chose their choice of weapons wisely and for the appropriate use.

 

[mook jong man]

Acehbk wrote in the kick penetration thread:

It makes me wonder how much kicking techniques have been lost in WC. I would like to believe that there use to be a lot of leg work used but now it seems like WC is pretty much hands and a occaional push kick.

Snapping that wrist isn't something easily done. It takes a lot of practice. I am seeing that now. It has me looking at all those youtube links where you see guys doing chain punches at 50mph.....as that guy said in that youtube video about locking the wrist upon impact.. "all that machine gun rubbish." lol He is right, if you are doing it correctly you can't have these super fast punches.


which made me think about what is actually more useful, you can probably land close to 2x more attacks by using the "machine gun rubbish" do you think your hitting twice as hard by using the wrist in this way, or more so, and thus gaining power? would damage even add up in this manner? for example if i hit you 20 times at 100% power, or 40 times at 50% power, within the same duration would you consider these to be equal, either way I'd like to hear why you believe this!

I will have to disagree with you there Nabakatsu on the contrary Wing Chun contains many intricate leg techniques , now I can only speak for my lineage here . But ours contain this

low heel kick - target is knee or shin
medium heel kick- groin or bladder
snap kick- top of instep to groin , your basic kick in the balls

close range thrust kick - heel kick from arm distance or less to solar plexus , abdomen or groin most used when in control of their arms

stamp kick - very close range kick to back of knee joint used in conjunction with hands

hook kick - close range kick with shin to inner and outer thigh , front and back of thigh , abdomen and ribcage used in conjunction with hands.
Can also be used directed at the front of the thighs in unison with a latch behind the neck which makes the person somersault head first into the ground

Wing Chun side kick- can be directed to knee , bladder, abdomen ,chest ,ribcage executed same as hook kick but using heel.

Chum Kiu thrust kick - the pivoting kick performed at the end of Chum Kiu

Straight knee strike - targets are thigh ,bladder , abdomen commonly used with a one arm neck latch while other hand pulls the arm .

Roundhouse knee strike - performed same as hook kick , but in closer range targets are thigh ,bladder ,abdomen ,ribcage ,kidneys used with arm control.

Back hook kick - performed by raising leg and striking to the groin of attacker who is behind you with the back of your ankle and heel.

Leg locking - using the stance to break someones leg or force them to the ground , done by making contact with your shin to their lead leg , locking their ankle with your ankle , transfer your weigh to your front leg and bend it suddenly which breaks their leg at the knee joint.

Bil Gee sweep kick - sweep kick from Bil Gee , smash the back of your heel into their achilles tendon and calf , typically used with a latch and elbow strike at the same , throws them back on their head

These next ones are kicks that are not part of the Wing Chun system but my Sifu added them because they are useful for self defence and easy to do.
low side kick - low kick straight to the side impacting with heel , targets attackers knee or shins who is approaching from side

medium side kick - same as above but targets groin , bladder or abdomen of an attacker approaching from side

Charging low side kick / charging medium side kick - same as above but done from longer range , performed by doing a one step shuffle to the left or right and then kicking.

These are all the ones I know of and then of course you have all the combinations of these kicks used in chain kicking , leg deflections etc.

So as you can see there is quite a lot to work on , does any else know of any other leg stuff that I might have missed.

Sorry my mistake Nabakatsu it should have been Ace I was replying to

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

After applying a lin wan kuen, chain punching, to anyone's face or sternum, they are going to react...

The thing is that the reaction is mostly gonna be to turn away and cover... which is not a good thing if you want to finish with the chain punching...

Yet it is great if you want to control them, knee them, elbow them, kick their legs for a takedown or just push them away.

So in my experience, chain punching was never a finisher. More like a painful setup that destroys offensive structure of the attacker so I can attack at will.

If I hit'm good and he falls, better. Normally one or 2 will hit, the others will hit the arms, at which time I would have won the centerline facing game and I would have better position on his side or back.

From there, a position of victory (in the Sun Tsu sense), I can apply a finishing technique or control.

Hope that helps.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[mook jong man]

I read somewhere that it acts like a high speed battering ram , causing accumulated damage in one spot instead of all over the place like other arts.

I think that WSL said that it causes knock out because the first punch bounces the brain around and then before the brain has a chance to recover the next punch comes in shortly after which bounces the brain around again which then causes unconsciousness

 

[AceHBK]

I read somewhere that it acts like a high speed battering ram , causing accumulated damage in one spot instead of all over the place like other arts.

I think that WSL said that it causes knock out because the first punch bounces the brain around and then before the brain has a chance to recover the next punch comes in shortly after which bounces the brain around again which then causes unconsciousness

This was brought up on the TV show 'The Human Weapon'. I will admit that show got real scientific when it came to breaking things down. I remember that analogy from the show.

Also they mentioned how WC uses a vertical punch and how the bones aling for a more effective punch.

Any boxing coach will tell you, if you don't have proper technique, it doesn't matter how hard or fast you hit, you can easily hurt yourself (i,e, broken finger, hand, wrist)

 

[AceHBK]

I will have to disagree with you there Nabakatsu on the contrary Wing Chun contains many intricate leg techniques , now I can only speak for my lineage here .

Thanks for lisitng the numerous kicks. I now look forward to learning them in the future.

You also hit on my point which I talked about in the other thread. With so many different lineages, WC of old certainly must look different from past. Some lineages may have taken out some stuff while some added.


It makes you wonder what has changed.

 

[mook jong man]

This was brought up on the TV show 'The Human Weapon'. I will admit that show got real scientific when it came to breaking things down. I remember that analogy from the show.

Also they mentioned how WC uses a vertical punch and how the bones aling for a more effective punch.

Any boxing coach will tell you, if you don't have proper technique, it doesn't matter how hard or fast you hit, you can easily hurt yourself (i,e, broken finger, hand, wrist)

Yes that must of been where I got it from , I've got a mind like a sponge , it just soaks up information , most of which is completely useless.

 

[AceHBK]

Yes that must of been where I got it from , I've got a mind like a sponge , it just soaks up information , most of which is completely useless.

lol..it just needs a reason for you to use it for it to become useful.

Here is there clip where there show the animation to describe the principle of the chain punch

Here is the blind chi sao clip of the teacher and the student on the show. Teacher hits the student so hard he ends up puking over the wall.

 

[mook jong man]

Thanks for lisitng the numerous kicks. I now look forward to learning them in the future.

You also hit on my point which I talked about in the other thread. With so many different lineages, WC of old certainly must look different from past. Some lineages may have taken out some stuff while some added.


It makes you wonder what has changed.

Well the good thing about it is that they are pretty much all the same kick , what I mean by that is the angle of your leg from your stance to the target is maintained .

Apart from a couple of ones like the close range thrust kick where the knee is brought back to the chest and thrust out again because the opponent is very close , same with the stamp kick and knee strikes it is very close range so the structural angle of your leg must be reduced in order to kick or knee at close range .

What this means that if you are working on one you are basically working on them all , I remember that there was a long time where I just worked on my hook kick , and when I came back to doing a WC side kick (bong gerk) it was more powerful even though I was only practicing the other kick .

Because they are both the same movement except one is close range and strikes with the shin and the other is longer range striking with the heel . They both use the same swinging action of the hip with a pivot same as the round knee strike .

 

[chinaboxer]

So, I've been doing 2 rounds of 10 mns of straight chain punching a day for past 4-5 days or so, and I have a question.. I know this is something I should be able to figure out for myself, but so far I haven't had much success!
I've been taxing the heck out of my shoulders within the first 2 minutes every time, which makes it really painful to continue, I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to how I can refrain from using them as much, thanks in advance!

this is one of the most common mistakes in Wing Chun, which is using the shoulder muscle and trying to "shut them off", but instructors rarely have a good way of teaching how to do it. here are two videos from my Chinese Boxing Tutorial website that you should take a look at...

this one is a basic description of how to turn off the shoulder concept
http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/09/05/turning-off-the-shoulders/

this one is the basics on chain punching
http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/09/05/turning-off-the-shoulders/

make sure to subscribe to the website if you wish to join the weekly tutorial, peace!

Jin

 

[Nabakatsu]

I've noticed your activity around here and took a look at your site, good stuff keep it up, thanks for the good intentions and insights. Peace