Chain Punches - Do you lock the Elbow?

[Kanoy919]

I've always thought that it's bad to lock your joints, but was recently told that I should be fulling extending my arms while doing chain punches. I was not told specifically to lock my elbow, however, during the demonstration, this is how it appeared to me. I was around 98% fully extended and was told to extend further. If I do, my elbow is locked.

A little help please!

Thanks!

 

[Touch Of Death]

full extension indicates a path of motion that drops your shoulder out of socket before your thrust. You should invert your punch past the horizontle before ever locking your elbow.
Sean

 

[7starmantis]

I'm certainly not a WC practitioner, but coming from mantis (and a medicine background), I would be very carefull of ever locking my elbows during punches. Not only is it extremely bad for your elbows and could seriously injur them by itself, when thinking from a mantis background, we really love to attack joints and such, locking a joint on your own would be a bad day against someone looking for joint attacks.

JMHO,
7sm

 

[monji112000]

:asian:The problem with not locking your elbow is that you will cave in when enough force is applied against your punches. The reason is you are using muscle instead of body structure(ie your horse). The other problem is HYPER-extending your arm. Thats also a bad idea. I asked my Sifu what he was talking about when I first started. He keeps saying “Lock elbows, lock elbows , How come you don't lock elbows?”
After class I asked him what does he mean? I was trying to Hyper-extend them.., of course my elbows hurt for a few days because of my mistake. Lock elbows to him means just before hyper extension, your arms are as straight in line as possible. (not exactly a perfect line).


In Wing Chun we use something called impact power. It uses the force that is coming at you. Without a proper structure you will cave in and often take many hits.
I don't know if impact power is talked about outside of the Applied Wing Chun Family. Marcus_P could probably shed some light if I have explained it well.

 

[7starmantis]

:asian:The problem with not locking your elbow is that you will cave in when enough force is applied against your punches. The reason is you are using muscle instead of body structure(ie your horse). The other problem is HYPER-extending your arm. Thats also a bad idea. I asked my Sifu what he was talking about when I first started. He keeps saying “Lock elbows, lock elbows , How come you don't lock elbows?”
After class I asked him what does he mean? I was trying to Hyper-extend them.., of course my elbows hurt for a few days because of my mistake. Lock elbows to him means just before hyper extension, your arms are as straight in line as possible. (not exactly a perfect line).


In Wing Chun we use something called impact power. It uses the force that is coming at you. Without a proper structure you will cave in and often take many hits.
I don't know if impact power is talked about outside of the Applied Wing Chun Family. Marcus_P could probably shed some light if I have explained it well.

I see your point about "caving in" but I guess thats one of the differences bewteen WC and mantis. Why would you have force applied against your punches? And when that did happen, why would you want to "out push" or use more force than what is applied to them? See, in mantis we want to "cave in" and not try to overpower force with force of our own. In fact, if force is applied and I can "cave in" correctly I can probably get the person applying the force to loose their balance or at least overcommit. Its most certainly not using muscle force to punch without locking your arms, in fact you can still punch through your opponent, you can even use the punch to push them or control their center, its all a matter of timing and distance, not locking your elbows. Body structure is important and in mantis we are heavily against using muslce force, its body alignment and moving the waist etc. While locking your joints can give your punch or attack a solid base it commits you way too much to that attack as you cannot feel or change quickly and it also offers your body structure as the receiving party. Locking your joints against a person who is looking for joint locks and breaks is dangerous. A locked elbow is easily injured. The difference is force by muslce or force by structure, but in my opinion both are force and both overcommit you and in mantis we are constantly looking for that.

Its just a difference of style I believe, we do not use as much the force coming at you as the combined force of the punch coming at you and your movement in towards the punch. Alot of our focus in mantis is to get the opponent off balance, then its easy to let the opponent "walk into your attack" so to speak.

7sm

 

[monji112000]

I follow what your saying, I will try to explain impact power in a different way (in my understanding of it). I don’t believe you will have time to take advantage of me locking my punch and I think you are talking about hyper-extending your hand. I could be wrong. Everything happens in a short second.

For example (this has happened to me recently). Someone throws a a hook or 2. Lets say for this example that he commits completely and tries to knock your head clear off with both very fast and hard. It doesn’t matter if they are clean boxer hooks or longer choy lay fut wheel hooks. I could turn my horse (step forward slightly if needed) and tan+da, then quickly without stopping turn my horse again and cover the whole area in front of me and tan+da again or pak+da.

That first Hook he is going to come in and hit me unless he has really long arms (really long) and even if he does he is going to move forward with a great deal of power. This is how MOST people punch. (This is just a example) it could be one hook or 10 hooks or uppercuts ect.. it makes no difference.

I don’t know how Mantis players derive their power so I can’t say what works for you. BUT, I can say with full confidence when he comes in to knock my head off. My Punch has to be straight, fast and I MUST use my horse. If not, my punch will hit, and if its his face it may stop him. BUT, his body will still keep moving and if that one hit didn’t completely incapacitate him ( I have never had 1 punch do that) you will have him all over you . Again the punch has to “locked” in place. Its similar to a jousting knight, or a battering ram that hits a door. You have to cover immediately after you punch, but you must (from a WC perspective) not let your punch cave in. If you use your horse, and body structure to lock your punch he will feel a great deal of pain and I can say from experience it hurts. Its like slamming into a wall. Its not muscling the person you are using your horse and your structure. The punch extends ideally before impact.

For example try this: take a heavy bag and swing it back and forth till its swinging very high. (enough to knock someone off balance). As it swings back at you turn your horse and punch. If your heavy bag stops and you don’t get off balance then you have good structure. Your arm should “lock” before impact. I say “lock” not hyper-extend. Locking for me would be just before you hyper-extend.

You can try this with chest protectors also, but honestly you feel it through them completely. The Power doesn’t come from the puncher, it comes from the person who is crashing in.

 

[7starmantis]

I follow what your saying, I will try to explain impact power in a different way (in my understanding of it). I don’t believe you will have time to take advantage of me locking my punch and I think you are talking about hyper-extending your hand. I could be wrong. Everything happens in a short second.

This is often the response to this question, especially from WC players. Not to be disrespectful, WC players are used to firing many very fast punches so it makes sense. But I'm not relying on speed at all, but contact and feel. Staying in contact with the arms or hands when defending removes the need for alot of speed. If the punch say aimed at the chest or head of an opponent is locked and the punch doesn't make contact, that leaves the locked elbow out there to be attacked. For example the old yielding shoulder break. A person pushes on the right shoulder of an opponent. The defender (getting pushed) yields his torso to the right, uses his right hand to secure the pushing hand of the attacker, then continues his torso turn until his left shoudler is now putting pressure on the elbow of the extended punching arm. This can be a break from a push or a punch. Extending the elbow joint to the point of being "locked" makes this break very dangerous. Leaving enough bend in the elbow joint alows one to feel this lock coming and move the attack from the hand to the elbow and avoid the break or lock.

We are however discussing different styles and philosophies of fighting. Not really saying one is better than the other, just different. We could also agree and are simply not understanding each others use of the word "locked". In my mind a locked elbow joint is fully extended. Not to the point of hyper extension, but where the bones are in a straight line, meaning any impact from the hand will travel up the bones of the arm to the weakest point....most likely the locked elbow joint. Below is a picture of what I would consider a locked elbow joint. Pressure from a horizontal plane would really injur the elbow by making it hyper extend and then possibly break.

For example (this has happened to me recently). Someone throws a a hook or 2. Lets say for this example that he commits completely and tries to knock your head clear off with both very fast and hard. It doesn’t matter if they are clean boxer hooks or longer choy lay fut wheel hooks. I could turn my horse (step forward slightly if needed) and tan+da, then quickly without stopping turn my horse again and cover the whole area in front of me and tan+da again or pak+da.

That first Hook he is going to come in and hit me unless he has really long arms (really long) and even if he does he is going to move forward with a great deal of power. This is how MOST people punch. (This is just a example) it could be one hook or 10 hooks or uppercuts ect.. it makes no difference.

I don’t know how Mantis players derive their power so I can’t say what works for you. BUT, I can say with full confidence when he comes in to knock my head off. My Punch has to be straight, fast and I MUST use my horse. If not, my punch will hit, and if its his face it may stop him. BUT, his body will still keep moving and if that one hit didn’t completely incapacitate him ( I have never had 1 punch do that) you will have him all over you . Again the punch has to “locked” in place. Its similar to a jousting knight, or a battering ram that hits a door. You have to cover immediately after you punch, but you must (from a WC perspective) not let your punch cave in. If you use your horse, and body structure to lock your punch he will feel a great deal of pain and I can say from experience it hurts. Its like slamming into a wall. Its not muscling the person you are using your horse and your structure. The punch extends ideally before impact.

Yes, I know what technique yoru describing and we have one exactly the same, we call it "black tiger steals the heart". Your using your stance and waist to generate the power, but what I do not agree on is the locked arm. Using your stance and the twisting of the waist is a must, but locking the arm before impact is a bad idea, in my opinion. You used the example of a battering ram, or jousting....ever see what happens to the lance when full straight on contact is made and the other knight withstands it? It shatters...not a good thing for your arm. The elbow is the weakest point of the arm in that position and coming from a medical/physical therapy background, the force is going to travel up the bones of the arm to the joints of the elbow and maybe shoulder. The kind of impact and damage that type of force does to your body is horrible. Even if its slowly over a period of time. What I'm saying is you can still do that technique and can still slam into the opponent as they move forward. You can still hurt them bad and even move them without locking the joint and slamming it into them. Its the contact made early, the twisting of the waist, the turning of the horse stance and the extension of the punch that causes the damage, not the slamming of the locked arm straight into the oncoming force. Ouch, that makes me cringe just thinking about it. Now, as a mantis person I'm very much against the one hit kill mentality and am deffinitely up for many, mnay more attacks after this one. I'm only referign to the specific detail of locking the arm. You loose so much power by locking the arm before contact rather than using the extension to add moving power to the punch. Keeping the arm from being completely extended allows for a judging of the force moving in. If for some reason the force of the guy moving in (say he is much larger and very committed) is so much that it is goign to continue on regardless of my attack, I can then judge that force and yield my body out of its way while attacking as they go by. That however is probably very different from WC as I believe its very linear and wants to overpower and move through rather than yield and attack at angles. Just some differences in our styles.

For example try this: take a heavy bag and swing it back and forth till its swinging very high. (enough to knock someone off balance). As it swings back at you turn your horse and punch. If your heavy bag stops and you don’t get off balance then you have good structure. Your arm should “lock” before impact. I say “lock” not hyper-extend. Locking for me would be just before you hyper-extend.

You can try this with chest protectors also, but honestly you feel it through them completely. The Power doesn’t come from the puncher, it comes from the person who is crashing in.

Yes, I've actually done just this drill before. I agree that you should stop the bag and not get off balance, however that can be done without locking the arm and slaming it into the oncoming force, that is so much impact for the joints of the arms to absorb. If you are locking your arm before impact you are using imporper timing (at least in my opinion). As you would have to allready be turned and droped into your stance before impact. We do it a bit different. The timing is very hard, but we attempt to use the twisting of the waste, the turning of the stance, the dropping of the stance and the extending of the punch to all combine to create moer power to hurt them more as well as move their center and possibly knock them off balance. However, thats a very "close in" technique as opposed to a most distant type technique.

All in all we agree I think, I just hate to think of the bones and joints of the arms taking so much punishment. Also, it seems that locking the punch before contact is losing power as you have allready reached your maximum extension and maximum force or power before even making contact. Just differences in our styles or fighting philosophies I guess....pretty interesting.

7sm

 

[Kanoy919]

So, if I understand the response so far, Wing Chun chain punches are typically taught as needing to fully extend the arm.

Since I'm new, my concern was that I was being taught a technique incorrectly. I don't want to stay at a school and learn incorrect techniques.

Now, I need to find the fine line of having a fully extended arm without locking my elbow.

 

[7starmantis]

Now, I need to find the fine line of having a fully extended arm without locking my elbow.

That I believe is the key.

Very good grasshopper :asian:


7sm

 

[Kensai]

Kanoy919 wrote:

Now, I need to find the fine line of having a fully extended arm without locking my elbow.

My sifu places more emphasis on getting the most power out of the last 6 inches than on whether the elbow joint should be perfectly straight. I guess all of my punches are 98% straight, but only arriving at that point within the last millisecond, and not 100% straight, there's always a tiny amount of give in my arms. They aren't straight for long enough anyway, always withdrawn for the next smack. Plus, chain punching as far as my sifu is concerned, is there to develop independent punching power, that is a punch powerful enough to come from your chain punch technique, but without chain punching per se. In other words a punch that's fast, pretty powerful, and not very telegraphed, i.e difficult to react to.

 

[monji112000]

its much simpler than it seems. REALLY! 98% is probably correct.

You can only get impact power on the initial part of the engagement. If you can extend before impact I believe you will use more structure. Any chain punches after should fully extend, but not hyper-extend. You can't really get any shock power after the first one because he will be moving backwards not forwards.


Is that going to hurt your joint.. I am not a doctor, so I would not be the one to ask. I don't think it will because we are talking about a matter of inches of space before impact and not feet. I don't feel any pressure in my elbow, mostly just in my heel.


This isn't the only punch in WC, others exist including palm, ridge hand, uppercut, ect..
NYC Wing Chun has some clips of nasty uppercuts.


Just test what your doing on real things, in a real environment. It will come to you after time, if it makes sense to you.

 

[Kanoy919]

Thanks!

 

[Kensai]

its much simpler than it seems. REALLY! 98% is probably correct.

You can only get impact power on the initial part of the engagement. If you can extend before impact I believe you will use more structure. Any chain punches after should fully extend, but not hyper-extend. You can't really get any shock power after the first one because he will be moving backwards not forwards.


Is that going to hurt your joint.. I am not a doctor, so I would not be the one to ask. I don't think it will because we are talking about a matter of inches of space before impact and not feet. I don't feel any pressure in my elbow, mostly just in my heel.


This isn't the only punch in WC, others exist including palm, ridge hand, uppercut, ect..
NYC Wing Chun has some clips of nasty uppercuts.


Just test what your doing on real things, in a real environment. It will come to you after time, if it makes sense to you.

Aye good point. My friends and I train during the week, using technique at full pelt, but wearing/using pads. Good to train using atypical Wing Chun techniques. That is the only real fear I have training in this. That I spend TOO much time training, sparring with other Wing Chunners? Perhaps I need to widen my training environment? *Ponders...rubs chin, looks thoughtful*.... :asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Is that going to hurt your joint.. I am not a doctor, so I would not be the one to ask. I don't think it will because we are talking about a matter of inches of space before impact and not feet. I don't feel any pressure in my elbow, mostly just in my heel.

Well, thats where I'm coming from. I'm an ex-paramedic(still active), I've worked in a variety of settings including emergency medicine as well as sports medicine. I'm currently going back to school to get my masters in physical therapy to be a Physical Therapist. From that background is where my reaction to "locking" the elbow joint before impact came from. As far as hurting the joints, I can't see how that would help the joints. It may not create an immediate injury, but locking the bones and joints to absorb that kind of impact is just asking for injury, its not the way the body is made to react to force. The force is then absorbed into the joint itself rather than the muscle, tendons and fibrous tissue. Let alone allowing the joint to "collapse" to allow the force to be emptied rather than taking it full force. Impact is impact, doesn't matter if the distance is a few inches or a few feet. The example was given of a battering ram or a lance used for jousting. Both of those shatter if met with the right amount of force becasue they are static and have no way of emptying the force they receive, they must absorb the full force themselves. The elbow joint of the arm does have that ability to move and bend to allow the force to be absorbed outside of the body.

That is the medical issue I have with it, when it comes to martial issues I have a few as well. I practice mantis kung fu which is a very close fighting system that has a heavy focus on joint locking, attacking and breaking. In that focus we use yielding to "empty" an attack and get full extension in order to apply pressure at the correct angle to injur or break the joint. Completing full extension before making contact only serves to remove a step from the joint attacking process. If the technique described meets the opponents body or force but they yield the torso removing the force, then the punch meets nothing and is hung out fully extended and more than likely over extended. It doesn't take much force at all to break a locked joint, especially the elbow joint if pressure is applied at the right place in the right direction. Plus, the hand or wrist become a handle to place the fulcrum of the lock on the elbow itself. This doesn't even touch on the loss of power that one would experience reaching maximum extension before making contact. Even the great Bruce Lee harped on "punching through the target". Again, these martial issues I have are more than likely style specific, but the health issues are human specific and would apply to any body with human bone and joint structure.

Ok, I'm really going to get off my rant now....

7sm

 

[monji112000]

Its hard to explain in a text description but I still punch through the target. I was told and I think this works well, to aim with your elbow. Think of hitting the target with your elbow not your fist.

I have a few Doctors in the family I will see what they think, thanks for the medical perspective.. It may not be a issue though (I will have to do some research).

Kensai,

You train against other WC fighters? WHY!? Its really pointless JMO. You will most likely fight other styles so why not train against them? you can learn the basics of other styles (Boxing/Thai,ect..) and use them as a learning point.

You think you are going to get into a fight with a WC player? Hmm maybe I should watch out for you.

 

[Kensai]

Its hard to explain in a text description but I still punch through the target. I was told and I think this works well, to aim with your elbow. Think of hitting the target with your elbow not your fist.

I have a few Doctors in the family I will see what they think, thanks for the medical perspective.. It may not be a issue though (I will have to do some research).

Kensai,

You train against other WC fighters? WHY!? Its really pointless JMO. You will most likely fight other styles so why not train against them? you can learn the basics of other styles (Boxing/Thai,ect..) and use them as a learning point.

You think you are going to get into a fight with a WC player? Hmm maybe I should watch out for you.

You know what I mean, I train against them in class. I have a few mates that do ju jitsu and judo etc, so should look to pick on them more. Or they on me.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Now, I need to find the fine line of having a fully extended arm without locking my elbow.

I'm working on this too. I don't have a problem with over-extending, but rather under-extending, even though I feel like I've extended sufficiently.

I was told and I think this works well, to aim with your elbow. Think of hitting the target with your elbow not your fist.

I was told the very same thing in class.

 

[bcbernam777]

Thge locking has to do with the release of energy, you are in the process of energy development. A similar principal can be seen in a whip, which utilises each componant in harmony to produce the end result. By learning in training to extend the arm to its fulolest extent you are training the full release of your energy. When this energy is trained you can then utilise it from any distance locked or not. Bare with the pain it will pass (after about 2-3 years) and will not create damage IF it is being taught properly, if taught incorrectly, it can and will result in damage.

 

[Ali Rahim]

Its hard to explain in a text description but I still punch through the target. I was told and I think this works well, to aim with your elbow. Think of hitting the target with your elbow not your fist.

In wing chun, the fist is nothing until impact the moment. It is derived by the elbow and guided by the wrist, the power stems from good connection to the floor and being able to connected both bottom and top triangles through a strong “mother line”. When the understanding of chum “sinking energy” is apart of your physic repertoire, your strike will connect to all the chum pockets within your stance; hands, palms elbows, shoulders, and low center of gravity and not to mention pelvis, knees and feet (or ankles)

The vector that the strike will take is that of a 45-degree angle, from the solar plexus to the clavicle using the bottom three knuckles to line up the top knuckle to get the usage of the whole forearm (do not bend the wrist when striking) while maintaining chum connecting the strike to the whole body.

Ps. but in retrospect you are correct

 

[Ali Rahim]

Thge locking has to do with the release of energy, you are in the process of energy development. A similar principal can be seen in a whip, which utilises each componant in harmony to produce the end result. By learning in training to extend the arm to its fulolest extent you are training the full release of your energy. When this energy is trained you can then utilise it from any distance locked or not. Bare with the pain it will pass (after about 2-3 years) and will not create damage IF it is being taught properly, if taught incorrectly, it can and will result in damage.

That's A GOOD POST!!!