Certification

[Dirty Dog]

I am not against standardization. However, when you really think about it, everyone is in a state of non-compliance. I don't care who you are. Some more than others, others less so. Those who are in a higher state of compliance are obligated to help and assist those who are less traveled down the road,

If you were to insert "if that is what they want" at this point, we'd be in 100% agreement on this issue. Some who are "out of compliance" are so because they WANT it that way. And that's fine.

not simply sit in judgment and criticize. Taekwondo is unique in the sense that it was an art created not by a single person, but rather was a group effort, all putting aside their differences to help each other prosper and grow. That to me is the true spirit of taekwondo, and that is the philosophy from which I operate from.

 

[puunui]

If you were to insert "if that is what they want" at this point, we'd be in 100% agreement on this issue. Some who are "out of compliance" are so because they WANT it that way. And that's fine.

I think it is a waste of time to attempt to force people to do something they do not want to do. So freedom of choice is always in there.

 

[Gemini]

I am not against standardization. However, when you really think about it, everyone is in a state of non-compliance. I don't care who you are. Some more than others, others less so. Those who are in a higher state of compliance are obligated to help and assist those who are less traveled down the road, not simply sit in judgment and criticize. Taekwondo is unique in the sense that it was an art created not by a single person, but rather was a group effort, all putting aside their differences to help each other prosper and grow. That to me is the true spirit of taekwondo, and that is the philosophy from which I operate from.

"Everyone is in a state of non-compliance". Who can be in compliance if no standardization is maintained? I do agree with your "grandfathered in" analogy but that has it's limitations. I also agree that the art was created by a group individual kwans. Just because the Master was initially awarded a Kukkiwon certification doesn't justify him handing them down past himself without incorporating the Kukkiwon's training curriculum. I know several (4) Tang Soo Do masters that in the late 80's were awarded Kukkiwon certification simply for crossing over because the Kukkiwon was desperately short of Masters. I also know that each one of those masters learned and incorporated the Kukkiwon curriculum in their training of Taekwondo. If they were to still teach Tang soo do, that's fine, but the students didn't recieve a Kukkiwon certificate at black belt, nor should they. If you want to train under any school's curriculum, do it, but don't call it Kukkiwon. IMO the Kukkiwon shoots itself in the foot by handing out certifications like so many business cards. Why not just sell them in black belt magazine if no standardization will ever be required. That said, I have to ad that the respect I have for the original poster and other who post here is based on their knowledge and input, not their certification.

so yeah, there are people that think exactly like i said

There are some yes, but this statement is very different from this statement

KKW people automatically assume everyone either is or wants to be KKW certified too.

at least to me.

 

[puunui]

I remember hearing comments about how all of the "good TKD instructors" had left Korea to teach globally; putting TKD's best foot forward so to speak in the early days. I could see how this could create some turmoil if those "less technically skilled" were taking political TKD positions in Korea while those with more talent were spread throughout the world globalizing TKD. (this is only conjecture, I really don't know this to be the case)

I do understand the idea that good taekwondo instructors left Korea to teach in other countries. However, I think it is a mistake to think that only those "less technically skilled" remained in Korea. As for those taking political positions, up until recently, it was the kwan jang or other pioneers who assumed those roles, and I would never say that they were "less technically skilled" than those who left Korea to teach. That is not a good way to think about the pioneers who created Taekwondo especially those who stayed in Korea when they obviously had the opportunity to leave if they wanted to.

 

[mastercole]

Puunui,

Thank you for your input, it has been enlightening. Particularly, putting the timeline of TKD into perspective. So many of the seniors in the U.S. came to this country in the 60's and 70's, prior to KKW's existence and prior to the "technical unification." I can see how the goal of spreading TKD globally also created a very real challenge of technical unification.

I remember hearing comments about how all of the "good TKD instructors" had left Korea to teach globally; putting TKD's best foot forward so to speak in the early days.

I could see how this could create some turmoil if those "less technically skilled" were taking political TKD positions in Korea while those with more talent were spread throughout the world globalizing TKD. (this is only conjecture, I really don't know this to be the case)

That is the first time I ever heard of that. I'm not saying you are claiming it as true, but who ever is claiming that is very wrong. Actually, it's the other way around.

 

[puunui]

Just because the Master was initially awarded a Kukkiwon certification doesn't justify him handing them down past himself without incorporating the Kukkiwon's training curriculum.

I think that is a good goal to shoot for. I disagree that we are at that stage yet.

I know several (4) Tang Soo Do masters that in the late 80's were awarded Kukkiwon certification simply for crossing over because the Kukkiwon was desperately short of Masters.

By the late 1980's there were I believe over 25,000 Kukkiwon certified instructors, 1500 in the USA alone. They Kukkiwon was not "desperately short of Masters".

If they were to still teach Tang soo do, that's fine, but the students didn't recieve a Kukkiwon certificate at black belt, nor should they. If you want to train under any school's curriculum, do it, but don't call it Kukkiwon.

If I had your attitude, Hawaii would still be in the dark ages.

IMO the Kukkiwon shoots itself in the foot by handing out certifications like so many business cards. Why not just sell them in black belt magazine if no standardization will ever be required.

I don't believe that one shoots them self in the foot when showing patience, understanding or compassion towards other taekwondoin and attempts to make them feel welcomed and included. But if you don't feel that way, then by all means, promote only those who, in your judgment, deserve to be promoted according to whatever standards you feel are appropriate. If you feel that you are up to standard, then do your part in passing those standards on to others.

mastercole and I were the first ones to speak about the kukkiwon standards, including short narrow standards. People came out of the woodwork to attack us about that. Today, people are in a better frame of mind to accept the kukkiwon standards, and now more and more dojang are adopting those. Personally, I'd love for everyone to be at stage three, but the fact of the matter is that we are still at stage two, and most probably will be for a while longer.

 

[mastercole]

I understand most people points of view on this subject and I know they have their reasons for thinking like they do. They have their point of view, and I have mine, and that is OK.

I used to be liberal with issuing Kukkiwon Dan certificates. Now I rarely assist anyone outside of my school with it. Experience has shown if they did not get it, there is probably a good reason and I am not going to get involved. If I did decide to assist someone, they would have be a dedicated Kukkiwon Taekwondoin making a real effort at following the Kukkiwon method and have what I consider a correct attitude. But I don't have relationships with non-Kukkiwon Taekwondoin, nor would I ever want to develop such a relationship, so I do't think the issue will come up. Of course no one has to ask my help and get a no answer. They have always been free to go somewhere else and I would prefer it that way. Again, nothing wrong with people helping others get it, it's just not for me.

 

[mastercole]

>>>>Originally Posted by Gemini I know several (4) Tang Soo Do masters that in the late 80's were awarded Kukkiwon certification simply for crossing over because the Kukkiwon was desperately short of Masters.<<<


That is not true, who told you that?

 

[Gemini]

By the late 1980's there were I believe over 25,000 Kukkiwon certified instructors, 1500 in the USA alone. They Kukkiwon was not "desperately short of Masters".

It was their words, not mine, I wasn't there, but it was a pretty common theme. Why would they lie? Because I heard the same story from 4 different sources, I choose to believe them. More likely, knowledgeable as you are, there may be something you didn't know. Regardless, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of this comment. The poiint was, they chose to incorporate the name and the curriculum that defines what it is, not just the name.

If I had your attitude, Hawaii would still be in the dark ages.

Many people are of the same opinion about this. I'm hardly unique. Are we then in the dark ages? Maybe the dark ages had some merit.

I don't believe that one shoots them self in the foot when showing patience, understanding or compassion towards other taekwondoin and attempts to make them feel welcomed and included. But if you don't feel that way, then by all means, promote only those who, in your judgment, deserve to be promoted according to whatever standards you feel are appropriate. If you feel that you are up to standard, then do your part in passing those standards on to others.

This has nothing to do with patience or compassion. I feel those who work hard to learn and grow the Kukkiwon curriculum should be promoted within the Kukkiwon. I also feel that if they choose to learn a different curriculum than they should promote under THAT curriculum. I'm a little confused about your comments regarding warmth and compassion. You make it sound as if the sun rises and sets on the Kukkiwon and all others are something less. I couldn't disagree more. Maybe I just misunderstand your thoughts. It seems to me you vocolize unification, but don't require any standards for unification to take place.

Today, people are in a better frame of mind to accept the kukkiwon standards, and now more and more dojang are adopting those.

If that's true, we have no disagreement.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I have never understood the concept that because someone way back got kkw certification they should get the same kkw certification for their students even if its not what they teach. I mean, if I left school and did a plumbing apprenticeship and became a qualified plumber and after a few years in the work force realised it wasnt the job for me so I went and changed jobs and did an electrical apprenticeship. Years and years later I am running my electrical business and put on an apprentice, at the completion of his apprenticeship should I certify him as a qualified plumber as well as an electrician just because I have that certification, even though he knows nothing about plumbing? Of course not. Just because once upon a time years ago your GM got kukkiwon certification doesnt mean he should pass it on to his students if its not what he teaches. If he teaches the kukkiwon curriculum then most certainly yes, he should. I think it all comes down to what they teach. I dont want a certification in something I dont know.

 

[puunui]

It was their words, not mine, I wasn't there, but it was a pretty common theme. Why would they lie? Because I heard the same story from 4 different sources, I choose to believe them. More likely, knowledgeable as you are, there may be something you didn't know.

Numbers don't lie, there was no shortage of instructors by the late 80's, but feel free to believe who you want.

Regardless, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of this comment. The poiint was, they chose to incorporate the name and the curriculum that defines what it is, not just the name.

No problem. We did the same thing in Hawaii in the 90s. Please read my post about it earlier in this thread.

Many people are of the same opinion about this. I'm hardly unique. Are we then in the dark ages? Maybe the dark ages had some merit.

I understand many people think like you do. But if I had done what you would have wanted me to do, then Hawaii taekwondo would not be where it is presently, which is a leading state, in sparring and now in poomsae as well. There are about 15-20 high achiever types here, all of whom I believe have the potential to be Kukkiwon 9th Dan. If I have my way, they will all make it to that level.

This has nothing to do with patience or compassion. I feel those who work hard to learn and grow the Kukkiwon curriculum should be promoted within the Kukkiwon. I also feel that if they choose to learn a different curriculum than they should promote under THAT curriculum. I'm a little confused about your comments regarding warmth and compassion. You make it sound as if the sun rises and sets on the Kukkiwon and all others are something less. I couldn't disagree more. Maybe I just misunderstand your thoughts. It seems to me you vocolize unification, but don't require any standards for unification to take place.

Try and read all of my posts in this thread. I pretty much lay out what my position is, and why.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I understand most people points of view on this subject and I know they have their reasons for thinking like they do. They have their point of view, and I have mine, and that is OK.

I used to be liberal with issuing Kukkiwon Dan certificates. Now I rarely assist anyone outside of my school with it. Experience has shown if they did not get it, there is probably a good reason and I am not going to get involved. If I did decide to assist someone, they would have be a dedicated Kukkiwon Taekwondoin making a real effort at following the Kukkiwon method and have what I consider a correct attitude. But I don't have relationships with non-Kukkiwon Taekwondoin, nor would I ever want to develop such a relationship, so I do't think the issue will come up. Of course no one has to ask my help and get a no answer. They have always been free to go somewhere else and I would prefer it that way. Again, nothing wrong with people helping others get it, it's just not for me.

Very good post. If I was a kukkiwon instructor (which Im obviously not) I would not be helping non kukkiwon people get kukkiwon certs. I would only want to see dedicated kkw tkdoin getting them, people dedicated to the cause. I wouldnt want to see people getting around with kukkiwon certification who are not up to speed with the kukkiwon curriculum and the kukkiwon way of doing things. Its the same reason that when we get a kukkiwon black belt join our club they start at white belt, not because they are any less skilled in tkd than we are, but because they are a black belt in a different system.

 

[puunui]

I understand most people points of view on this subject and I know they have their reasons for thinking like they do. They have their point of view, and I have mine, and that is OK.

I used to be liberal with issuing Kukkiwon Dan certificates. Now I rarely assist anyone outside of my school with it. Experience has shown if they did not get it, there is probably a good reason and I am not going to get involved. If I did decide to assist someone, they would have be a dedicated Kukkiwon Taekwondoin making a real effort at following the Kukkiwon method and have what I consider a correct attitude. But I don't have relationships with non-Kukkiwon Taekwondoin, nor would I ever want to develop such a relationship, so I do't think the issue will come up. Of course no one has to ask my help and get a no answer. They have always been free to go somewhere else and I would prefer it that way. Again, nothing wrong with people helping others get it, it's just not for me.

We talked about this before. I understand how you feel. For me personally, I have a strong desire to truly understand taekwondo from the pioneer's perspective, which requires to a certain degree, doing what they did. The prime difference is that the pioneers had korean cultural factors working in their favor, and we have to deal with american perspectives and the issues that come forth with that, if you know what I mean.

 

[mastercole]

Originally Posted by puunui By the late 1980's there were I believe over 25,000 Kukkiwon certified instructors, 1500 in the USA alone. They Kukkiwon was not "desperately short of Masters".



It was their words, not mine, I wasn't there, but it was a pretty common theme. Why would they lie? Because I heard the same story from 4 different sources, I choose to believe them. More likely, knowledgeable as you are, there may be something you didn't know. Regardless, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of this comment. The poiint was, they chose to incorporate the name and the curriculum that defines what it is, not just the name.

Whoever it is that you choose to believe, the facts show that they were wrong. The Kukkiwon was never "short" of masters (I assume you mean instructors). That would be a false rumor circulated among a like minded group with an agenda.

 

[mastercole]

Very good post. If I was a kukkiwon instructor (which Im obviously not) I would not be helping non kukkiwon people get kukkiwon certs. I would only want to see dedicated kkw tkdoin getting them, people dedicated to the cause. I wouldnt want to see people getting around with kukkiwon certification who are not up to speed with the kukkiwon curriculum and the kukkiwon way of doing things. Its the same reason that when we get a kukkiwon black belt join our club they start at white belt, not because they are any less skilled in tkd than we are, but because they are a black belt in a different system.

People might read me wrong on my statement. "I" am not the right person to get involved in the process of attempting to bring people who do some other spin off of Taekwondo into the Kukkiwon. I don't disagree with it and I don't disagree with others who do it. I know why they do it and it is for a greater cause.

I just have no patience in dealing with them, unless of course they are on fire to learn the Kukkiwon method, then, I might consider it.

 

[mastercole]

We talked about this before. I understand how you feel. For me personally, I have a strong desire to truly understand taekwondo from the pioneer's perspective, which requires to a certain degree, doing what they did. The prime difference is that the pioneers had korean cultural factors working in their favor, and we have to deal with american perspectives and the issues that come forth with that, if you know what I mean.

Yes we did, and I certainly understand your view, and I agree with it, 100%. I also think in these matters you have greater patience that I do, and in these ways you are more flexible as well. That is why it's an area I should stay out of

 

[puunui]

I also think in these matters you have greater patience that I do, and in these ways you are more flexible as well. That is why it's an area I should stay out of

I wasn't the easiest student for some, if not all of my teachers, who were VERY patient with me. So I feel that I owe it to them to pass on the patience, understanding and goodwill that was shown to me, in the hopes that the pioneers' thoughts, feelings and policies carry over, for at least one more generation.

 

[Gemini]

Whoever it is that you choose to believe, the facts show that they were wrong. The Kukkiwon was never "short" of masters (I assume you mean instructors). That would be a false rumor circulated among a like minded group with an agenda.

As I've stated, there were several including the Master, not instructor, who issued me my 1 Dan belt. He was a 6th Dan Tang Soo Do Master who made a cross over to 6th Dan Kukkiwon. It doesn't strike as something someone would brag about or mention if it wasn't the truth. So yes, I choose to believe him and the others who shared similar stories. If you don't I'm okay with that. What I won't do is presume to tell anyone their past.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

i dont do the kkw forms, so i cant be kkw certified even if i wanted to which i do not since i place NO value on it at all.

I too, was under this impression but have since been told 'it doesnt matter' that I dont know any of the curriculum. I think the policy is just sign up anyone to the kukkiwon and worry about the fact they have no idea about the curriculum later. I constantly hear about the advantages of the kukkiwon being that its standardised, yet you make the point that you cant be kukkiwon because you dont know their forms, and then the official member of the 'kukkiwon sign up commitee' jumps on and says you can join despite not knowing their curriculum. Standards? what standards? Ive made several points regarding this (note the plumber analogy), but these points are ignored and brushed over as if they were never posted because it proves just how ridiculous some of the 'theories' actually are. The usual suspects on here contantly tell me my GM should be handing out kukkiwon certs despite the fact we dont do the kukkiwon curriculum. Just sign us up and sweep the fact we dont know any kukkiwon stuff under the carpet it seems. Although, we have 4000 students and if they were all paying money to the kukkiwon for our certificates I could start to see why it is important to them for us to join. $$$$$

 

[mastercole]

As I've stated, there were several including the Master, not instructor, who issued me my 1 Dan belt. He was a 6th Dan Tang Soo Do Master who made a cross over to 6th Dan Kukkiwon. It doesn't strike as something someone would brag about or mention if it wasn't the truth. So yes, I choose to believe him and the others who shared similar stories. If you don't I'm okay with that. What I won't do is presume to tell anyone their past.

Given the actual facts, I choose not to believe him. But I'm OK with that too.