centerline concepts

[futsaowingchun]

This video compliments my previous video Siu lin Tao-breakdown # 1

 

[tshadowchaser]

question At about 32-37 it looks as if the punch is repositioned to hit with the lower 2 knuckles( like a boxer might ) is this the correct position for first contact. I realize it may be a filming perspective error
Thanks for the information on the film

 

[futsaowingchun]

question At about 32-37 it looks as if the punch is repositioned to hit with the lower 2 knuckles( like a boxer might ) is this the correct position for first contact. I realize it may be a filming perspective error
Thanks for the information on the film

In Wing Chun we hit with the last 3 bottom knuckles.

 

[Vajramusti]

How do you define the center line?

 

[futsaowingchun]

How do you define the center line?

The center line is an invisible line that runs from the top of the head to bottom of the groin or torso ( a vertical axes ). This line also divides the body in half,but what's important is how you defend and attack from it. So when I face you if I where to connected a string from my center line and to yours that would be the line that I need to attack and defend from. So I would keep my hands close to the my center line to protect it, and to exploit and attack my opponents center line.

 

[Vajramusti]

The center line is an invisible line that runs from the top of the head to bottom of the groin or torso ( a vertical axes ). This line also divides the body in half,but what's important is how you defend and attack from it. So when I face you if I where to connected a string from my center line and to yours that would be the line that I need to attack and defend from. So I would keep my hands close to the my center line to protect it, and to exploit and attack my opponents center line.

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Thank you for your perspective. There are lots of different views on the centerline apparently

 

[zuti car]

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Thank you for your perspective. There are lots of different views on the centerline apparently

That is true , and not only in Wing Chun but in most of the other Chinese styles , they all have at last some center line concept and some of them very developed center line theories

 

[geezer]

How do you define the center line?

Joy's (Vajramusti) background as a university professor shows. His comment reminds me of something one of my own professors beat into my thick skull. No meaningful discussion can proceed without first defining your terms.



In my lineage we begin with a pretty simple explanation of our "lines". We use an ordinary "x y z" three axis model just like mathematics:

http://www.povray.org/documentation/images/tutorial/handed.png

So, to relate this to WC, we have a vertical midline or Y axis running from the top of the head straight down through the body to the ground. We have a horizontal midline or Z axis running sideways across the body at about the level of the solar plexus or base of the sternum. And, we have the centerline or X axis extending forward from the center-point (juncture) perpendicular to the other two axes. One more line of significance would be what I call the connecting line that links out center-point to our opponent's like a string.

As far as "lines" go, that's really all there is. Three axes and a connecting line. The rest is what you do with these concepts.

 

[Danny T]

Joy's (Vajramusti) background as a university professor shows. His comment reminds me of something one of my own professors beat into my thick skull. No meaningful discussion can proceed without first defining your terms.



In my lineage we begin with a pretty simple explanation of our "lines". We use an ordinary "x y z" three axis model just like mathematics:

http://www.povray.org/documentation/images/tutorial/handed.png

So, to relate this to WC, we have a vertical midline or Y axis running from the top of the head straight down through the body to the ground. We have a horizontal midline or Z axis running sideways across the body at about the level of the solar plexus or base of the sternum. And, we have the centerline or X axis extending forward from the center-point (juncture) perpendicular to the other two axes. One more line of significance would be what I call the connecting line that links out center-point to our opponent's like a string.

As far as "lines" go, that's really all there is. Three axes and a connecting line. The rest is what you do with these concepts.

Other than the terminology our line concepts are the same.

We use:
Motherline (core)- the line the runs directly through the core of the body head to ground
Centerline - a plane emanating from the Motherline forward and is defined by where the wrist cross in beginning of SLT (there is one centerline)
Central line - the plane connecting from your motherline to the opponent/s motherline (there is the possibility of having multiple central lines by having multiple opponents.
Table line - Horizontal line at about the solar plexus. Approx. where the elbows rest.

 

[Vajramusti]

Joy's (Vajramusti) background as a university professor shows. His comment reminds me of something one of my own professors beat into my thick skull. No meaningful discussion can proceed without first defining your terms.



---------------------------------------------Yhx
Yup. Much of the confusions and adversarial postings are related to not understanding the premises involved.
As soon as I understand someone's usage of the term centerline, I am well on my way to understanding their version of the art.

Thx to fut sao and gezzer... I understand better- what they do. And how you use the center line is an important key to what else you do.

Years ago for the JAMA I wrote an article titled-Defending the mother line. The mother line is "jung sum sin"- whereas the centerline to me is
the line or plane between you and your shadow's (mirror image) or your opponents mother line. Of course there is more to this.

 

[geezer]

Other than the terminology our line concepts are the same.

We use:
Motherline (core)- the line the runs directly through the core of the body head to ground
Centerline - a plane emanating from the Motherline forward and is defined by where the wrist cross in beginning of SLT (there is one centerline)
Central line - the plane connecting from your motherline to the opponent/s motherline (there is the possibility of having multiple central lines by having multiple opponents.
Table line - Horizontal line at about the solar plexus. Approx. where the elbows rest.

Thank you Danny! Until reading your post I never understood that whole center line vs. central line distinction, and the term mother line meant nothing to me. And sadly, feuding between lineages did not help my desire to understand. Now reading your very simple explanation juxtaposed with mine makes it clear that we are using different terms to talk about the same thing i.e. three axes and a connecting line.

The one important clarification you make is that your forward "centerline" and your connecting "central line" are best conceived of as plane. Now if I follow what you are saying, a straight forward strike may be an upward angled strike to your opponent's nose, a level strike to his chest, or a downward angled strike to the gut, but being on the centerline "plane", all three would solid, "centerline" strikes. This would make perfect sense to me in terms of how we apply the concept of "lines" (or "planes") in my lineage as well.

Here's an image I found sort of, well maybe a little bit (?) helpful:

http://www.chromesphere.com/tutorials/other/Co-ordinates/xyz planes_full.png

In this image the light blue line labeled "Y+" would be the vertical axis through the body that you refer to as the the "mother line" and the center line/plane is the vertical plane labeled "YX Plane" Or perhaps ...Why explain? --badda-bum! lol

 

[Marnetmar]

Other than the terminology our line concepts are the same.

We use:
Motherline (core)- the line the runs directly through the core of the body head to ground
Centerline - a plane emanating from the Motherline forward and is defined by where the wrist cross in beginning of SLT (there is one centerline)
Central line - the plane connecting from your motherline to the opponent/s motherline (there is the possibility of having multiple central lines by having multiple opponents.
Table line - Horizontal line at about the solar plexus. Approx. where the elbows rest.

Thanks for explaining that, I was never quite sure how this worked before.

In other words, this would be a sort of further explanation of the regular centerline theory, correct?

 

[Danny T]

Thank you Danny! Until reading your post I never understood that whole center line vs. central line distinction, and the term mother line meant nothing to me. And sadly, feuding between lineages did not help my desire to understand. Now reading your very simple explanation juxtaposed with mine makes it clear that we are using different terms to talk about the same thing i.e. three axes and a connecting line.

Great!

The one important clarification you make is that your forward "centerline" and your connecting "central line" are best conceived of as plane. Now if I follow what you are saying, a straight forward strike may be an upward angled strike to your opponent's nose, a level strike to his chest, or a downward angled strike to the gut, but being on the centerline "plane", all three would solid, "centerline" strikes. This would make perfect sense to me in terms of how we apply the concept of "lines" (or "planes") in my lineage as well.

Absolutely!!

Here's an image I found sort of, well maybe a little bit (?) helpful:

http://www.chromesphere.com/tutorials/other/Co-ordinates/xyz planes_full.png

In this image the light blue line labeled "Y+" would be the vertical axis through the body that you refer to as the the "mother line" and the center line/plane is the vertical plane labeled "YX Plane" Or perhaps ...Why explain? --badda-bum! lol

You are good!!

 

[Danny T]

Thanks for explaining that, I was never quite sure how this worked before.

In other words, this would be a sort of further explanation of the regular centerline theory, correct?

Not certain what you mean by "regular centerline theory" however, it is how we explain the centerline and base its theory and develop the tactics we use in the manner we express wing chun.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Another interesting question that is hardly discussed... how "wide" in your centerline as per your WC / lineage?

 

[Danny T]

Another interesting question that is hardly discussed... how "wide" in your centerline as per your WC / lineage?

Great question.
Really depends upon how good my opponent is however, as a general rule the width of my finger tips when presented as Jong Sao. If much wider that this then the opponent can enter with very little change off the line and your movement to cover the line becomes more toward chasing rather than maintaining the line.

 

[KPM]

Here is how I've come to understand and apply lines and angles in Wing Chun. This is from multiple sources and families of Wing Chun I have trained. Much of it overlaps with what has already been explained, as one would expect....since its all Wing Chun!

Vertical line = Y axis = Mother-line = from the top of the head through the center of the body

Vertical Centerline = X axis = a plane that extends from your mother-line to the opponent's mother-line (or your own mirror image mother-line when training solo). This creates the left and right or inside and outside zones of the "four zones." I see no need for a distinction between a "center-line" and a "central-line". If you are square with an opponent like in Chi Sao, then it is exactly "center". If either of you are angled at all it is "central." The whole "central-line" distinction is something I think William Cheung created to make his method more distinct. Other Yip Man people were doing the same thing at the time, just not calling it something different.

Horizontal Centerline = Z axis = a plane that extends from your mother-line to the opponent's mother-line but on a horizontal plane at the level of your elbows. This can change in height according to how high your arms are held. This creates the high and low portion of the "four zones" and determines whether your respond with say a Tan Sau or a Gan Sau....above the level of your elbow/horizontal centerline or below the level of your elbow/horizontal centerline.

Attacking Line = the line that extends from your mother-line to the opponent's mother-line like a string. This is the path that your offensive strike follows. Sometimes it will be "center-line" if you are square to the opponent. Sometimes it will be "central-line" if you have pivoted and are not square with the opponent. So again, no need for a distinction.

Defending Line = the line that extends from your mother-line to the center of the opponent's attacking technique like a string. This is the path that your defensive action should be aligned along for the strongest structure. Again, it might be "center-line" when doing something like a Pak Sau followed by a punch or it might be "central-line" when doing something like a Tan Sau vs. a wide swinging punch while striking the opponent at the same time. So again, in my terminology I see no reason for a distinction between "center-line" and "central-line."

Shoulder Line = mid-clavicular line = a Y axis plane that extends outward from your mid-clavicular/nipple area rather than from your mother-line. This is more of a reference for the other "lines" and a way to work the varied lines when training solo. For instance...when doing a form solo without a pivot you would do a Pak Sau with your left hand on your right shoulder line followed by a Tan Sau with your left hand on your left shoulder line. With a pivot that same Tan Sau ends up being on your Defending Line as you punch down the Attack Line to the opponent's mother-line. In another circumstance, with a pivot that same Pak Sau ends up being directly on your center as you deflect the opponent's punch that is aimed at your mother-line.

Hope that all makes sense!

 

[geezer]

Here is how I've come to understand and apply lines and angles in Wing Chun. This is from multiple sources and families of Wing Chun I have trained. Much of it overlaps with what has already been explained, as one would expect....since its all Wing Chun!

Hope that all makes sense!

No, KPM! You are just Wrong!!! ...Oh, wait is this MartialTalk? ...Whoops, wrong forum. Nevermind. --LOL.

 

[Danny T]

It comes down to this:
I want to intercept the opponent's intent and attack his core by angling and facing bringing my 6 gates vs his 3. This allows me to bring all my weapons to bear vs a few of his. In the process of attacking if I run into an obstacle I either remove it, go around it, or temporarily immobilize it and continue to attack. If I am unable to do any of those things then it is time to leave while preventing him from getting an attack in on me!!

 

[KPM]

No, KPM! You are just Wrong!!! ...Oh, wait is this MartialTalk? ...Whoops, wrong forum. Nevermind. --LOL.

Darn! I forgot to include all the inflammatory remarks about how everyone else must have missed the "real" teaching and are obviously low-level....wait, you're right....that is the other forum!!!!