Cardio Kickboxing/Kickboxing

[TigerWoman]

Agreed, it is another way to exercise. I am certainly not disputing that. What I am disputing is when people say that they will learn SD, how to throw punches and kicks, etc. How can someone who is not a MA instructor, properly train someone to throw a punch and a kick, when they don't know themselves? Now, if the instructor has a background in Martial Arts, thats one thing, but I doubt that they all have that background.

Mike

I realise there are cardio kickboxing teachers who have no MA training. I checked out the local community ed program and took their classes at least a few times. Her sidekick was a front kick to the diagonal. Her uppercut wasn't nearly right, the pushups were against a wall, and I was the only one who dared to do them on the floor, regular. It was pretty erroneous in teaching what martial arts is really about. But that level was all a lot of those overweight sedentary women could handle at the time and still feel good about themselves. She didn't teach any self defense to her credit. Later, I talked with her and she said she had hip problems and couldn't do it the way I showed her a sidekick. But because of the mailer to every home, she gets new people in there all the time and they exercise, better than sitting on the couch. And maybe they realize and want more of the real thing and contact our dojang. A few do, but very few. But because this fitness instructor has a gazillion classes with community ed, we are only allowed one women's class as in one day advertised in the program mailer. It is advertised as kickboxing, sparring and self-defense but really is regular TKD. We usually get about six people to the other class's 30. TW

 

[47MartialMan]

It shouldn't be mis-advertised as kickboxing, sparring and self-defense. Because it is only a exercise program. Sounds like something getting hyped and misunderstood for the "almighty dollar".

BTW-Not speaking in terms of you TW, if you include SD in your classes.

 

[MJS]

I realise there are cardio kickboxing teachers who have no MA training. I checked out the local community ed program and took their classes at least a few times. Her sidekick was a front kick to the diagonal. Her uppercut wasn't nearly right, the pushups were against a wall, and I was the only one who dared to do them on the floor, regular. It was pretty erroneous in teaching what martial arts is really about. But that level was all a lot of those overweight sedentary women could handle at the time and still feel good about themselves. She didn't teach any self defense to her credit. Later, I talked with her and she said she had hip problems and couldn't do it the way I showed her a sidekick. But because of the mailer to every home, she gets new people in there all the time and they exercise, better than sitting on the couch. And maybe they realize and want more of the real thing and contact our dojang. A few do, but very few. But because this fitness instructor has a gazillion classes with community ed, we are only allowed one women's class as in one day advertised in the program mailer. It is advertised as kickboxing, sparring and self-defense but really is regular TKD. We usually get about six people to the other class's 30. TW

Once again, I think that it is great that someone who may be overweight, decides to better their health and do some exercise. Now, unless I'm reading your post wrong, and if I am, please correct me, but it seems that this cardio instructor has no MA background, but she is still throwing kicks and punches, but they are not close to being good because of a hip problem.

So..this goes back to the original question...why are the classes billed as something they are not? Why do people, who have no MA background, even attempting to throw punches and kicks if they can't do them properly? They'd be better off teaching the class as a regular aerobics class.

Mike

 

[47MartialMan]

Once again, I think that it is great that someone who may be overweight, decides to better their health and do some exercise. Now, unless I'm reading your post wrong, and if I am, please correct me, but it seems that this cardio instructor has no MA background, but she is still throwing kicks and punches, but they are not close to being good because of a hip problem.

So..this goes back to the original question...why are the classes billed as something they are not? Why do people, who have no MA background, even attempting to throw punches and kicks if they can't do them properly? They'd be better off teaching the class as a regular aerobics class.

Mike

This is because people want it both ways without the need for ranking and other martial art studies. It is because the fad is now thought as a way to exercise and be able to fight/defend at the same time, in the same class. It is a polluted mindset that both ways can be fused and shorten in one class structure. It is to draw people in that want to exrecse and believe they can learn fighting/defense methods from those exercises.

This past weekend, a woman approached me and stated that she found out, from a mutual friend at a bar-be-cue picnic, that I had studied and taught martial arts. She said she did Kickboxing. I had replied by asking her; "How many matches did she compete in?"
She answered;-"None".
I had replied; "if one studies kickboxing, then one is inclined to compete and put their skills to the test of application."
She answered; "I was going to ask you if you know any promoters?"
I had replied; Yes, but they are going to want to have you pre-spar REAL kickboxers"
She had asked; "What do you mean by REAL kickboxers?"
I had stated; "The ones whom train and fight combatively against other people"
She had stated; " That she did train combatively"
I had asked; "Did this include sparring other people?"
She replied; "We did not spar"
I had replied; "If you get into an actual ring and did not spar previously to obtain these skills, you (she) will get seriously hurt".

And thus is the polluted mindset that I speak about. I had tried telling her that she actually did not train in kickboxing, but she was headstrong and thinking that she had. It didn't take long for her not wanting to speak to me about it further. Woe the day she tries to use her so called "skills" in actual combat/defense.

 

[TigerWoman]

It shouldn't be mis-advertised as kickboxing, sparring and self-defense. Because it is only a exercise program. Sounds like something getting hyped and misunderstood for the "almighty dollar".

BTW-Not speaking in terms of you TW, if you include SD in your classes.

Okay my previous post must not have been clear enough. My class at noon is cardio kickboxing w/self-defense-basically an exercise class. Right now, I do it for free and charge nothing to TKD students-an extra class. In the fall, I would like to offer it to the public.

The other class at night is a community ed program class + regular TKD women join in as an extra class. It is advertised by community ed, their terms, "kickboxing, sparring and self-defense". It seems women will come if we just don't call it TKD. :erg: Then the women ask, well what do you do in TKD? So we answer, the same!! Maybe it is misleading but they definitely aren't looking for a line choreographed to music workout like the other community ed kickboxing class. They want to kick and punch something! And it is pretty cheap at two classes a week for eight weeks at 29. of which community ed only pays a nominal fee for the teacher. So no hype or or almighty dollar involved for sure. This is a loss leader for us. TW

 

[MJS]

I think Simon said it best in post #15...the classes that have someone who actually knows what they're doing are in the minority category. Its important to fully explain the proper way to punch, kick, and hit a bag. If this is not done, injuries can be the result. There are many people out there that are not Marital Artists that are teaching these classes.

As for the class being the same as TKD...again, I may be reading wrong, but I wouldn't say that a cardio KB class is the same as TKD, due to the fact that they would be doing kata as well as kicks that are not part of the CKB program, IE: A jump spinning hook kick.

Mike

 

[TigerWoman]

I think Simon said it best in post #15...the classes that have someone who actually knows what they're doing are in the minority category. Its important to fully explain the proper way to punch, kick, and hit a bag. If this is not done, injuries can be the result. There are many people out there that are not Marital Artists that are teaching these classes.

As for the class being the same as TKD...again, I may be reading wrong, but I wouldn't say that a cardio KB class is the same as TKD, due to the fact that they would be doing kata as well as kicks that are not part of the CKB program, IE: A jump spinning hook kick.

Mike

The other CKB class in town with the bad hip instructor doesn't do any harm with not advertising it as self-defense or even pretending it is anything but aerobicize with bad punches and kicks. They aren't hitting any bags. It is line choreographed. It was the bad sidekicks that made me tell her she should do the right way for her students. I know when she called sidekick, I threw one and everyone was confused. But, I see your point, but overall, I think the exercise value outweighs that. She is doing front kicks so no harm. Been there a couple of sessions, and the people there are not training for the ring.

Again confused, "Sparring, Kickboxing and Self-defense" is not a kickboxing class, it is a TKD class really. They do everything--form, sparring, bag and paddle workout etc., and self defense but they don't advance unless they test. An illusion was what I was getting at. Its advertised by another organization, com. ed. (not our dojang) who has given it a different name. But the women are going further and signing up to other regular TKD classes after taking this course. Or they can stay forever white belt level and just wear their street clothes as the community ed women are doing right now. But with other TKD women in class, doing their level, it shows them more what TKD is about. Hope that explains it better. TW

 

[MJS]

The other CKB class in town with the bad hip instructor doesn't do any harm with not advertising it as self-defense or even pretending it is anything but aerobicize with bad punches and kicks. It was the bad sidekicks that made me tell her she should do the right way for her students. So I see your point, but overall, I think the exercise value outweighs that. She is doing front kicks so no harm. Been there a couple of sessions, and the people there are not training for the ring.

I agree that the exercise and cardio value is key. After all, that is what the people are going for in the first place. If this instructor is not a Martial Artist, she should not be attempting to throw these kicks. The bad hip only contributes to something that is going to be improperly taught, although you can't fault her for a medical condition.

Again confused, "Sparring, Kickboxing and Self-defense" is not a kickboxing class, it is a TKD class really. They do everything--form, sparring, bag and paddle workout etc., and self defense but they don't advance unless they test. An illusion was what I was getting at. Its advertised by another organization, com. ed. (not our dojang) who has given it a different name. But the women are going further and signing up to other regular TKD classes after taking this course. Or they can stay forever white belt level and just wear their street clothes as the community ed women are doing right now. But with other TKD women in class, doing their level, it shows them more what TKD is about. Hope that explains it better. TW

Yes, Thank you.

Mike

 

[TigerWoman]

I agree that the exercise and cardio value is key. After all, that is what the people are going for in the first place. If this instructor is not a Martial Artist, she should not be attempting to throw these kicks. The bad hip only contributes to something that is going to be improperly taught, although you can't fault her for a medical condition.

Mike

Yeah, all her kicks etc. are wrong and weakly done, laughable really, but really just exercise. Its like doing an arm reach with a closed fist, that's a punch! Nothing with power so they are really in Lalaland. But they do, do cardio as she keeps it going. I would love to do a demonstration with two black belt women sparring. That wouldn't happen. Those women don't want to do that, but it would be an awakening! TW

 

[47MartialMan]

Okay my previous post must not have been clear enough. My class at noon is cardio kickboxing w/self-defense-basically an exercise class. Right now, I do it for free and charge nothing to TKD students-an extra class. In the fall, I would like to offer it to the public.

The other class at night is a community ed program class + regular TKD women join in as an extra class. It is advertised by community ed, their terms, "kickboxing, sparring and self-defense". It seems women will come if we just don't call it TKD. :erg: Then the women ask, well what do you do in TKD? So we answer, the same!! Maybe it is misleading but they definitely aren't looking for a line choreographed to music workout like the other community ed kickboxing class. They want to kick and punch something! And it is pretty cheap at two classes a week for eight weeks at 29. of which community ed only pays a nominal fee for the teacher. So no hype or or almighty dollar involved for sure. This is a loss leader for us. TW

I did say I wasnt speaking in terms of yours.

 

[Simon Curran]

Exactly, but watch out, they now have those free-standing dummies.

On a off-topic note...I notice a "flag" next to your name. What nationality is it if I may ask?

Sorry, just got back to this one, the flag next to my name is the Danish flag (I am an Englishman living in DK)

Back to the topic though, if only more people had the same attitude towards it as you TW, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the vast majority, I feel, are just misleading people.

 

[47MartialMan]

1.) Sorry, just got back to this one, the flag next to my name is the Danish flag (I am an Englishman living in DK)

2.)Back to the topic though, if only more people had the same attitude towards it as you TW, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the vast majority, I feel, are just misleading people.

1.) Many martial arts schools nearby?

2.) Hear hear. I feel the same TW. Was what I was trying to say.

 

[Simon Curran]

1.) Many martial arts schools nearby?

Choices are pretty limited where I live in particular (a couple of "wannabe-ryus" some wing chun, TKD, the usual suspects...)
Elsewhere in Denmark, there are many martial sports schools, but not so many martial arts schools (If you catch my drift...) in fact the term Martial Arts does not actually exist, per se, in the Danish language, the term here is "Fight sport"... Kind of a thorn in my side, but that is a topic for another thread.

 

[47MartialMan]

Choices are pretty limited where I live in particular (a couple of "wannabe-ryus" some wing chun, TKD, the usual suspects...)
Elsewhere in Denmark, there are many martial sports schools, but not so many martial arts schools (If you catch my drift...) in fact the term Martial Arts does not actually exist, per se, in the Danish language, the term here is "Fight sport"... Kind of a thorn in my side, but that is a topic for another thread.

I too was limited and had a couple of bogus instructors. However, I did leran some interesting methods from them.

 

[Simon Curran]

I too was limited and had a couple of bogus instructors. However, I did leran some interesting methods from them.

Interesting is kind of an ambiguous word though, I hope that I am done making bad decisions regarding my training.

 

[47MartialMan]

Interesting is kind of an ambiguous word though, I hope that I am done making bad decisions regarding my training.

For some reason they were "bogus or decietful" of whom they were per name and lineage. But they certainly had skills and training routines.

I could only imagine that they were "running" from something. Because both had "skipped town" without a fore mentioning or goodbye.

However, neither had "charged" me for lessons. neither had sought any compensation from me. I was introduced to them by another martial art practitioner and I guess they had seen my determination after a few classes. And I mean D-E-T-E-R-M-I-N-A-T-I-O-N, as I was fanatical.

But, these were in my pre-teens and teens. And one can undersatnd how younger people feel. in those days, the "almighty internet" or the desire to rsearch a instructor was nit there. You simply looked at a Asian in a martial art uniform, and went to study. Talk about sterotyping, which was prodominent back then.

 

[TigerWoman]

Back to the topic though, if only more people had the same attitude towards it as you TW, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the vast majority, I feel, are just misleading people.

Maybe, but I don't think the other instructor is misleading intentionally just responding to community demand. Years ago, my CKB class started first. The regimen that my instructor set up just ragged everyone. They were flat on the mat after the final crunches and not moving out the door. I lost them one by one-too hard. I dropped it after three years, during which the other gal started hers. She admitted to just copying a bunch of different tape routines. But she had a following-it was easy but still cardio.

So I really don't think you can lump all CKB classes together under one label...they probably run the gamut just like regular martial arts schools. TW

 

[MJS]

Maybe, but I don't think the other instructor is misleading intentionally just responding to community demand.

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. The general public most likely wants cardio and SD together, rolled into one package. I guess we can look at it a few different ways.

1- Is the public getting cardio? Yes

2- Is the public getting SD? It depends. Is the person teaching it a Martial Artist?

People tend to look at one thing and assume that its all the same. This is the reason why IMHO, they should have it explained to them. If there is no SD included then it should be explained so they don't think that what they're doing is actually SD.

Mike

 

[TigerWoman]

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. The general public most likely wants cardio and SD together, rolled into one package. I guess we can look at it a few different ways.

There could be many types of CKB classes that the public could want:

(1) Cardio with kicks, punches etc. fun exercise. No self defense wanted.

(2) Cardio kickboxing with self defense as an "extra". (self-defense tolerated)

(3) Cardio kickboxing with an emphasis on self-defense advertised.
(why not just go into martial arts like Kenpo)


Once in a while we do a self-defense class for women. I don't see droves here responding. But we are in a small town and I can take a walk after dark no problem. It probably depends where you are at. Used to live in big cities. There, the CKB classes should teach self-defense but women are still reluctant to learn it. The "can't happen to me until it happens" attitude, sigh! A very small percentage actually want to learn it. Those that really want to learn self-defense also would be more apt to go into martial arts. But this thread is really about cardio kickboxing-exercise not self defense except it is good to push this into the program if you can.
And those places that advertise that an exercise class can be a defense are doing a disservice to their clients (not students). But what can we do? Well, do the real thing, advertise real kickboxing on bags, real self-defense and hope the public is not so gullible. TW

 

[47MartialMan]

There could be many types of CKB classes that the public could want:

(1) Cardio with kicks, punches etc. fun exercise. No self defense wanted.

(2) Cardio kickboxing with self defense as an "extra". (self-defense tolerated)

(3) Cardio kickboxing with an emphasis on self-defense advertised.
(why not just go into martial arts like Kenpo)

As far as #1, why practice kicks and pinches, per striking as a exercise. Surely there are other exercises that can be generated by the limbs to do the same?

Sorry, TW, not trying to be "cute", just posting a general response