Can you learn iaido from a book?

[Ken Morgan]

This is a couple of posts my Sensei posted elsewhere regarding learning from a book. Being trained by him for over 12 years, i tend to think very much like him, plus I'm bored right now.....

Can you learn iai from a book?

"I just soooo dislike this idea that folks have that you can't learn out of a book for fear of learning bad habits. You're going to learn bad habits being in front of a teacher, the lifelong process of practice is to acquire and keep dumping bad habits. Situations change, what was a good habit when you were young and had fit knees might be a terrible habit at 65.

I have never, ever run across anyone who did themselves harm by learning out of a book. The worst that I've ever seen happen is that folks were yelled at by people on the net for learning out of a book.

On the other hand, folks who have shown up with a book and some practice have been ahead of those who showed up cold with not a clue.

The presence of mirror neurons in your brain means that you don't dare even look at a video, book or photographs of iaido if you want to show up in front of an instructor with no previous knowledge derived from same. Just looking at a performance of iaido will give you some practice of the art. Just looking at a photo will put your mirror neurons through their paces so that it will be similar to trying out the posture physically.

Beware, we need to burn all the books and ban utube".

"There's a world of difference between "don't do it" and "eventually you'll need a teacher". You absolutely need an instructor to get to any sort of higher level in any organization. In fact, I'd need an instructor to get to a middle level in another line of MJER than my own, but that doesn't mean my previous experience would be a waste. Your fellow learned fast, probably faster than a beginner. That he didn't stay around indicates other attitudes of course, which were likely foreshadowed by his reluctance to tell you he'd been working from a video the first day he met you."

 

[Langenschwert]

Well, of course you can learn a lot about swordsmanship from a book. That's a lot of what I do for HEMA. 500-year old books, no less. And I can fence using those techniques without embarassing myself unduly and teach others to do likwise.

The problem is the old books leave a lot of grey area, allowing a large degree of personal interpretation, or good or ill. Iai isn't like that. Now, if you had enough books on iaido, enough good videos and people to pressure-test your techniques, you could get something that functioned in so far as "get the sword out and cut the guy during this situation. Now put the sword away". And it would "work", and it might even work really well, especially if you have previous sword art expertise and fighting experience in general. You'll understand the range and timing and blade work involved, but it won't be the particular style of iai you were working towards. It will be a modern martial art based on writings about it.

I've got a couple of students with previous MA/Military experience, and swung around swords for fun. And even that experience seems to have helped, but there are still bad habits to break. Whether those habits would have been there regardless of self-training, I have no idea.

Books help. All I really do is train and read those books, over and over again. I can' tell you how many times I've read Ringeck, and I always come away with something new.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[pgsmith]

Ha!
This is a subject that Taylor sensei and I have gone around in circles on for a long time. You can absolutely learn something from books. However, it is impossible to learn an existing school from books. I've run across quite a few people over the years that have claimed to be practicing Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto ryu because they read Deity and the Sword, or HNIR because they read Gorin no Sho, or Yagyu Shinkage ryu because they read Heiho Kadensho. The only way to learn those schools, as opposed to just learning about them, is to join them.

While the western sword arts aren't quite the same, they are very similar. I remember being at a large WMA gathering a number of years back in Lewisville to help teach a session on cutting with the guys from Mugen Dachi. There were a number of top instructors there, as well as a large number of scholars. I remember one gentleman that knew Talhoffer inside and out, but he and the fellow that he regularly practiced with were terrible because they had been practicing up to this point by themselves, with just the books to go by. They couldn't cut, they could swing their swords with any authority, they were often off balance and awkward. This was because they had no other experience or training, and were just trying to learn from books.

So my contention has always been that while a person can learn from books, they cannot learn properly from books alone, and the only way to learn a koryu art, is to join that school.

 

[Sukerkin]

No physical discipline that involves the need for precision under given circumstances can be learned from a book.

I understand what Ken is saying in the OP and I confess that whilst I was looking for a teacher for Japanese swordsmanship I bought a few books on the topic and tried to copy what was in them. Did it help? Well, I can't really say as I cannot go back to a point of zero experience and try it another way . What I can say is that when I started to study under my sensei it didn't feel like messing about with those books helped me at all - after all, I already knew that "the pointy end goes in the other guy" :lol:.

 

[billc]

From my experience, books are great tools for helping you remember things you learned in class. If you learn a kata in class, and forget something about it, a book makes a nice memory tool. Books are great aids, but real learning needs interaction with people.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Thought is was a good discussion Paul, so I transfered it over here to try and get some discussion going.


I have seen people learn very, very well from a book, in fact outside of some minor adjustments, almost perfect.


I would argue, and I've said this before, that any of us who practice a JSA school, or even a WSA, could from a book learn the techniques of a school new to us. It may not be perfect, but it'll be close. Show me a video as well and I'll have it perfect, as would any of us who practice the sword arts. Again, though Chris disagrees, IT IS ALL THE SAME!

But then we would get into, "well you're not really learning the school, you're just memorising the dance steps". Isn't that really all we are doing in our own schools???

 

[JohnEdward]

My Japanese sensei use to say, if you can learn from a book than you don't need dojo. He felt real learning is experiencing it, it is doing it. I guess that really applies to Iaido, because how can you get the experience through a book, you are not to intellectualize, but rather experience it through practice. I guess it is a zen thing. It goes deeper than saying I am this ryu or that ryu. "Sword practice has a deeper experience if to be done right, it transcends [the mechanical]," I remember an Kendo/Iaido Japanese sensei saying that who was a friend of my Sensei's. With those words of wisdom in my head for years, in terms of Iaido, if you want the true essence of it you must practice long and hard, being very dedicated to daily practice, a book can't give you that. But on the other hand, a Japanese jujutsu sensei founding his own sister school who became very adept read every classical book on martial arts available along side his daily routine training. He admits what he gleaned from his reading helped elevated his skill. And he says, in essence if you are smart your not going to progress. Just daily routine isn't enough, you must research. I personally don't think Lance Armstrong learned how to ride a bike from a book. It is possible he increase his performance from reading, and studying.

 

[Supra Vijai]

But then we would get into, "well you're not really learning the school, you're just memorising the dance steps". Isn't that really all we are doing in our own schools???

Not being a JSA practitioner myself, I don't want to step on any toes here but I don't quite agree that 'memorising the dance steps' is a fair assessment of training in MA. I mean sure you are memorising the steps or kata when you first start and just trying to get by without hurting yourself or making a complete *** of yourself but eventually, isn't the point of training in a particular art, actually learning that art?

IMO actually learning an art extends beyond physical movements to concepts, strategies, mindsets, philosophies etc and when you approach it from that angle, each and every art is in fact quite different and unique from the next. This then leads to problems in learning from books or videos if you don't have some instruction to go along with it as how can you know which art, style or sub style you are studying? What about the nuances that only experienced instructors can give you - unless you have considerable prior skill yourself? Thoughts?

 

[Sukerkin]

But then we would get into, "well you're not really learning the school, you're just memorising the dance steps". Isn't that really all we are doing in our own schools???

:lol: Now you're just being deliberately controversial .

'Learning the steps' is only the first part of learning a kata and the kata themselves are just the first step along the road of learning the style which is itself just the first step along the road of learning the 'way of the sword'.

Sounds a bit Fortune Cookie Wizdum I know but what I mean is that the physical movements of the kata, without the knowledge of what is actually going on and being able to hold that in your mind, are just dance steps. I mentioned before that one of my fellow students used to be a dancer, so she picks up the moves of a kata very easily. Getting the intent is much more difficult for her.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Ken,

Yeah, I disagree (just to shock you, though!)...

As I said in the other thread, the physical actions are not the important part. If you (generic "you", my friend!) think they are, then you'll end up either not getting to the heart of any art, or becoming what is disparagingly called a "kata collector". These individuals think that a martial art is it's movements, without once thinking about where those movements come from (from a tactical and strategic level, as well as a level of communicating lessons). The movements are expressions of the art, they're not the art itself. Really, when it comes to physical methods, then yeah, in many ways, it really is all the same... but that's not what's important. The reason they are all different (and, to keep this on topic, the reason you can't learn from a book) is that it's the mentality that is different. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu has a very different mentality to Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, which has a very different mentality from Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, which has a very different mentality to Ono-ha Itto Ryu, and so on. Physically, can you step out of one and do a passable version of the moves of another system? Sure, absolutely you can. But that's not the art at all.

Not being a JSA practitioner myself, I don't want to step on any toes here but I don't quite agree that 'memorising the dance steps' is a fair assessment of training in MA. I mean sure you are memorising the steps or kata when you first start and just trying to get by without hurting yourself or making a complete *** of yourself but eventually, isn't the point of training in a particular art, actually learning that art?

IMO actually learning an art extends beyond physical movements to concepts, strategies, mindsets, philosophies etc and when you approach it from that angle, each and every art is in fact quite different and unique from the next. This then leads to problems in learning from books or videos if you don't have some instruction to go along with it as how can you know which art, style or sub style you are studying? What about the nuances that only experienced instructors can give you - unless you have considerable prior skill yourself? Thoughts?

Ha, that all sounds rather familiar.... who have you been listening to?

 

[Supra Vijai]

Ha, that all sounds rather familiar.... who have you been listening to?

Haha was I that obvious?

 

[punisher73]

Always and Never are just lies and generalizations.

It comes back to the student and their mind. We ALL have seen great students pick up things very quickly and just seem "naturals" and others that no matter how hard they try still look like the day they started. I won't point out that many of our old masters had texts and books passed down to them describing techiques that they "learned from a book" and then they got other people and practiced the crap out of them until they figured out the best way to apply it. Same thing with the "teacher correction" argument. Some students are self-correcting because they understand it and others you can point it out over and over and they still don't get it.

I really see no difference between a teacher just showing you the technique and you seeing the technique in a book. The REAL difference lies in what each of those two students do with it AFTER they have been shown and how much time and sweat they put into it to master it.

So what is the real argument? If you mean you can't learn a historical lineage to pass on to future generations from a book than I'll agree.

 

[pgsmith]

... as would any of us who practice the sword arts.

Therein lies the argument that Kim and I have been having for years. You are talking about an experienced swordsman picking up a book and learning new kata from it. Simple enough, and I dare say they would only require minor adjusments if they later did them in front of a qualified instructor. However, this isn't learning a sword art, it is adding modifications to what you already know. You've already learned how to move, and how to swing a sword. You know what your tanden is and why it's important. You know balance, relaxation, and flow. I guarantee you that if you give the same book to someone that has no experience in the JSA, that they could practice for years and still look nothing like you would after practicing out of a book for a few weeks. Why is that you ask? Because you learned under a qualified instructor, and most sword arts are fairly similar at their heart.

Have to agree with others though that you wouldn't learn too much. In my head, the koryu arts are like an onion. The more you learn, the more layers you peel back. However, there are always more layers underneath. If you learned from a book, you could only hope to get through the first few layers at best as the ones deeper in require more guidance than can be found in any book.

 

[jks9199]

Always and Never are just lies and generalizations.

It comes back to the student and their mind. We ALL have seen great students pick up things very quickly and just seem "naturals" and others that no matter how hard they try still look like the day they started. I won't point out that many of our old masters had texts and books passed down to them describing techiques that they "learned from a book" and then they got other people and practiced the crap out of them until they figured out the best way to apply it. Same thing with the "teacher correction" argument. Some students are self-correcting because they understand it and others you can point it out over and over and they still don't get it.

I really see no difference between a teacher just showing you the technique and you seeing the technique in a book. The REAL difference lies in what each of those two students do with it AFTER they have been shown and how much time and sweat they put into it to master it.

So what is the real argument? If you mean you can't learn a historical lineage to pass on to future generations from a book than I'll agree.

I've never said that nobody can learn from a book or a video. A lot does depend on the student in question, and how they work with the material.

But a book, or even many videos can't show all of the elements, especially transitions. Cameras are one-eyed idiots; they miss important pieces. Words are often inadequate without an on-going give & take about what is happening.

 

[foodog]

I'll admit that I don't know too much taking an online course for the japanese sword. (I study under Richard Van Donk - ninjutsu.) But if art is the floodgate to passion as opposed to being all scientific, then I would agree learning from a book or video is fine. It's what you do with the data that matters. Talking about technique with an instructor would indeed perfect it into an art but is not a quid pro quo to learning iaido.

-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums

 

[Chris Parker]

I really see no difference between a teacher just showing you the technique and you seeing the technique in a book. The REAL difference lies in what each of those two students do with it AFTER they have been shown and how much time and sweat they put into it to master it.

I see quite a bit of difference, personally. Especially when it comes to a book, and doubly so again when it comes to a solo pursuit such as Iai in many forms. If someone is learning from a book, you can reasonably accept that they will be able to mimic, to a greater or lesser degree, the "shapes" of positions within the movement, but there is no real way that they will be able to get the movement itself down. Mainly because static pictures, by definition, cannot show the transitioning movements, the timing, the angling, the ever-changing distancing, the minute corrections that occur, and so on. There is always a great part of that missing. Making it worse for the potential student is the habit of deliberately leaving out major and minor aspects of the movements (entire sequences for some arts I am familiar with in some of their publications....).

The teacher showing you the technique allows you to see the movement itself, see how things are strung together, allows you to focus on one point over others, and will allow (when practicing in front of them) for the instructor to offer immediate feedback and correction. Books are rather reticent to point out where you've gone "off page", so to speak...

So the REAL difference lies in the students opportunity for refinement (correction), and mimicry of movement. In one case, it's present, in the other, it's not. And this is coming from a guy who has books showing the complete technical material from a large number of systems he doesn't study, who thinks it would be awesome if that meant he knew those arts! But, I've found in moving from reading about certain systems to actually practicing them that my reading, even watching videos, may have meant I had a rough "map" of what I'd be doing, it was really nothing like actually learning them. PS Those arts include an Iai system, by the way.

So what is the real argument? If you mean you can't learn a historical lineage to pass on to future generations from a book than I'll agree.

I think the general concensus (one that I agree with) is that you can gain an education from the books, but it's divorced from the idea of learning a martial art (in this case Iaido). Whether a historical lineage, or a recent form (Seitei, for instance), it's really the same. For any doubt, cast your eyes over you-tube, and spot the self-taught Seitei guys. Typically you'll find that they're going too fast, there are numerable issues with their cutting, the angling is off, and the timing is wrong. But if you take still images and put them in a book, it won't look too different from a trained individual's publication.

I'll admit that I don't know too much taking an online course for the japanese sword. (I study under Richard Van Donk - ninjutsu.) But if art is the floodgate to passion as opposed to being all scientific, then I would agree learning from a book or video is fine. It's what you do with the data that matters. Talking about technique with an instructor would indeed perfect it into an art but is not a quid pro quo to learning iaido.

-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums

Hi Erin,

Uh, speaking personally, I love encouraging students in arts such as swordsmanship, so I don't want you to take this as discouraging you at all (rather the opposite, hopefully!), but if you are genuinely interested in the sword, might I ask if there are any real schools around you? Online courses are fraught with issues at the best of times, and, honestly, RVD isn't someone I'd go to for sword if he was next door to me (I know that sounds harsh, but you may want to have a quick read of this thread:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?95198-Be-a-founding-member-of-a-new-sword-art).

You're in Texas, I think I read somewhere (which I am given to understand is not exactly a small place?), if you are a little more exact in your location then some here may be able to give some further options for you (pgsmith, for instance, is a teacher of Swordsmanship, Mugai Ryu, if memory serves, in Texas). If there really is nothing about, I'm sure that you will get some value out of RVD's methods, but bear in mind that you may have a fair amount needing to be corrected in many dedicated sword schools, should you find yourself in one.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

How many people have I taught throughout the years who had read a book or watched a video and were well just terrible. They would have been better off not practiticing by themselves!

While I do not believe in absolutes my experience through the years has shown me that books and videos are great reference tools. However, if you wish to be good at the Martial Sciences then you need to have someone show you the way!

 

[ludde]

So, you are going to start training iai, koryu, whatever, at a local dojo. Fortunately for you, the sensei there have a book, and you bought it. A picture of all the kamae with description. Even a few basic cuts. You aren't going to start there in a few months, so, excited as you are, you try to copy whats in the book. You memorize the name of the kamae to the motion. Then you finely find yourself travel to your first class. Sensei wants to teach you the kamae, he says do this, and you do. You have actually don so in your apartment in front of a big mirror many days already. Sensei will probably adjust some, but not bad for a beginner.
So, there you are, after twenty years of training. I doubt that that you will sit in your car on the way to training and ponder about how fortunate it is for you that you copied from that book because if you had not, you would had to use precious minutes at the first class to do it all from the beginning. Do you really think that after one year of training that it would make any difference? I don't. Someone who started at the same time as this person but did not practice before the first class could be better after just a week. Then why? Because you are excited? Ok, that in my book is a legit reason. What if you would not start at a dojo? Then the book copying is a waste. You could still do it though, with your friends and play at samurai in your backyard. I don't care. If it makes you happy then be happy. You are not learning iai, koryu, whatever though.