Can you change Fate?

[hardheadjarhead]

Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?

No, I don't believe it...but I could be wrong.

The problem I have with the notion of destiny is that it becomes a very easy trap for a person to fall into and whereby we can rationalize our successes and failures.

"It was just meant to be" in explaining the death of a child overlooks the doctor's or the parent's error. "This is my lot in life" becomes the excuse for not overcoming our fears, working for a formal education, and getting out of the factory. "Its our destiny" turns into the very silly litany of young people everywhere who are certain they've found their soul-mate...only to find out their little love-biscuit is actually a raging co-dependent with control issues that make a Calvinist look tepid in nature.

Now, granted, someone working through their karma is trying to avoid this trap and take personal responsibility for their life and actions...but as I've shown above the phrases are reflective of a hand-wringing "woe is me" jeremiad that pervades our country. Unless, of course, we win the lottery...at which point the reverse of the process takes place and we've been blessed by God/fate/Lady Luck/(insert supernatural causation here).

I tend to believe in probabilities, allowing for that rare anomaly and fully recognizing cause and effect. Hard work might...or might not...improve our lot in life. We can not realistically say "anything is possible!" when addressing our aspirations. Some of us, for all our dreams and efforts, will never break the four minute mile or make a million dollars.

I suspect I will be tempted to believe otherwise if my life goes downhill, and I might say "Why me?" The question is rhetorical, directed at the heartless Gods as well as to no one in particular. If wisdom prevails I can look at everyone else and accept "why NOT me?" I'm not special. I'll lose loved ones. I'll get sick. I'll fail at something...as does everyone else. I'll also probably use the word "luck" in casual conversation, and flippantly say things like "The Gods smiled on thee." It is too much effort not to.

I'll end this with a poem by Edwin Arlington Robinson (Mods note: This is public domain). It is darkly existential, brutally candid, and speaks to those of us who no longer believe in fate and blessings or the gifts of the divine. It also speaks to those who do.


WHENEVER Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
"Good-morning," and he glittered when he walked.
And he was rich—yes, richer than a king,
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.


Regards,

Steve

 

[Raewyn]

This is what I mean by a theme. It's things that follow YOU, no matter how hard you try, and no matter how much you can change things for the next person, you feel destined to a life of alcoholism, abandonment, sexual abuse, or whatever the situation may be, and no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try to change things, it just never seems to happen and the same theme haunts you your entire life.

I think we are in control of our lives to a certain degree and unfortunately bad stuff happens. We have to roll with the punches. I dont fully understand why certain themes follow people around - maybe its pychological and we unintenionally are attracted to those or befriend those who we know possibly deep down could hurt us. Ive heard stories of some of those people who have managed to pick themselves up and change what fate has thrown at them. I guess some of the stuff that fate throws at us we cannot dodge. Very tricky question.

 

[jazkiljok]

So, I was talking to God the other day and he says to me “I just knew you were going to bring this up.” and I said, --“well yeah, I bet --maybe You should have done something to stop me before I did” and He says- “like what?” - And I say, “how should I know? You’re God!” —And He says—“quit being so concerned about your fate and worry about that parking meter running out.” And I says- “you got to be kidding me, I’m wondering about the existential dilemma of knowing that my life’s course is predetermined and yet being of free will I’m suppose to have the power to set any course I decide on and all You can bring up is that I’m about to get a parking ticket?!…”

Then He pauses… I don’t say anything for a minute, I look at the parking meter, He still hasn’t said anything… I wait a little longer… nothing but silence.

Damn, I dash to the meter and put a coin in before the time runs out.

I can hear him clearly chuckling in the background.

 

[donna]

My take of this is that we determine and agree to our fate ourselves. Some essential part of us does this outside of time and physical existence.

Everything that happens does so exactly the way it is meant to happen. There are no coincidences. It can not be changed, and you can be sure there is a lesson in it for you and for those whom your life touches.

I tend to agree with this. and it brings to mind the last part of Desiderata where it says:



You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.

 

[FearlessFreep]

...
I can hear him clearly chuckling in the background.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - God, to Bender

 

[Xue Sheng]

...
"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - God, to Bender

:asian:

 

[JasonASmith]

This is one of the BIG questions that I have kicked around in my head for the past 15 years...I have been introduced to the theory of pre-destination(grew up in a strict Christian environment), however I have often wondered about it...It seems to make sense on some(overtly Christian) levels, but it IS rather confining...I was always raised with the belief that YOU control your present. And if you have control of your present, then, technically, you SHOULD have SOME control over your future...
If you have enough control over yourself in the present, then you SHOULD be able to adapt when the future throws you the inevitable curve, and steer your course back to path that you have selected...So I guess that means that you DO have control of your own fate, but you have to know your path in life and what it entails first...:idunno:
In other words, it all comes down to YOU, and what you believe in/want from your life...

 

[pstarr]

I believe that some people (not every person) is driven to do certain things...Mozart was driven to music, and so on. I don't believe in predestination; hence, I don't believe in "fate" because that would seem to nullify our "free will."

But we CAN be "nudged." Some people HAVE to practice martial arts. Some HAVE to teach. They couldn't quit these things any more than they could quit breathing.

WHY it is, I don't know. I just know that it is.

 

[heretic888]

Personally, I believe the concept of "faith" or "destiny", at least as they are commonly understood, were developed for the sole purpose of keeping the lower classes in their place in society. The nobles didn't want those stinky peasants thinking they could run the show or anything, so therefore they were "destined" to be poor.

It is not coincidental that these ideas kind of got kicked to curb (except in the minds of a few fringe fundamentalist groups) once the West got around to developing democratic governments and burgeoning middle classes.

Laterz.

 

[chris_มวยไทย]

i believe that "fate" is just a word that people use to describe what happens in the "end" , i dont believe there is an end , only life , and if we reach "fate" or "death" we live again , possobly not as a human (known as reincarnatoin) , and the "spiritual theory" is that if we lead and honest , noble , modest , caring , good life as a human , we have reached the "end" and and have reached our "fate" , a spirit of complete harmony , "heaven" , so that if we try hard , very hard to be good people , we reach "fate" , so therefore i wouldent say that fate is death , because i dont believe death to be the end

all paople have their own choices , they can choose to be good people in this life , or they can be bad people and "prolong the inevitible" and wait longer for "fate" to show its face

hope you enjoyed reading my opinion

chris

 

[Sarah]

Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?

I believe in fate..I dont think every min is planed, but i believe we are meant to learn certain things, have certain experiences.

Often people have 'themes' following them around because they are just not getting the message. The same message will keep coming along, it may just be wearing different pants...and this will happen again and again until you get it, until you learn what you need to learn.

Also sometimes we are meant to have bad things happen so we can learn and influence others.

I am happy believing in fate, it’s comforting to know that things happen for a reason because the alternative is just to damn depressing.

But saying that, i dont think fate controlls how we live our lives, that is our own choose...however the lessons we need to learn will come to us if we are rich or poor, happy or angry...how we deal with it and wether we choose to learn a lesson from it is totally up to us.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I like to think of "fate" as us all floating in a river. All of our circumstances determine how strongly the current pulls us along. Our genetics, our upbringing, our parents decisions, the decisions of others that have an influence on us all push us downstream to whatever destination awaits us. As we get older its our own decisions that allow us to swim across the current so we can get out at a point more to our choosing. If along the way we push other people under, I would like to think that the shore we land on wont be too pleasant. But I do think we all have some element of self-determinism available to us. Those who feel like they are not making any headway just have to keep on swimming (swimming...swimming...just keep swimming...) perhaps your decisions/actions are only just doggie paddles when you need to start a nice strong breast stroke. One thing is certain though, if you just give up and let the current take you, you might as well put your head under the waves and take a deep breath.

 

[Flatlander]

I believe that all things are the result of causes and conditions, and are in a state of constant change. I believe that we all have the ability to influence our 'nowness' by how we percieve it, and the ability to influence our future by the choices that we make. However, I do not believe that at any point we 'control' our circumstances or future, as the rest of the world will continue to do the thing that it does, impacting our reality in ways beyond our control.

Having said that, I think that the notion of fate implies that there is going to be a predetermined certainty as to the individual occurences and happenings of events, and I cannot reconcile this notion with our freedom of choice.

However, are we destined to some absolutes? Currently, yes. We will age, we will die, the sun will explode. These things are largely inescapable.

 

[samurai69]

Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?

I think we are destined to pass certain points on our map of life we just get to choose the route (and can change the direction - get lost - re route etc).

eg, i was always ment to be in the work that i do, i had 3 opportunities to pass along that route, before i chose one and it may have presented itself one or two more times again after

.

 

[Shaolinwind]

Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?

You can work, strive, do everything with the best intents, plan meticulously and still fate will put a boot where the sun don't shine. I believe we are destined to thrive, or destined to suffer and there isn't a thing we can do about it.

 

[elder999]

Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?

It's quite the conundrum,especially if one believes in such a thing as "destiny,"as I do so I might not be particularly lucid here.

Take me as an example-I spent a huge chunk of my early years with doctors telling me it was my "fate" to die before I reached-well, a variety of ages through the years, with the upper limit finally reaching my teens (after I'd surpassed all the others) and my finally just not listening to them any more. Was it my fate to die young? Obviously not, but what if it was my fate to stubbornly go on living and getting stroger because I was told that? A huge combination of factors went into my actually becoming "well," and stong-I had some wonderful teachers through the years, and parents who supported me-was it fate that I met those people, or that my parents had a child with challenges, and had the right attitude for those challenges? I couldn't say. One of my teachers-for a very short time-was a famous vaudeville strongman. I first saw him on the "Joe Franklin Show" (showing my age , again) and talked about him at karate class that week-I was about 12 at the time. Turned out, my teacher had been his neighbor at one time, and asked if I wanted to meet him-was that fate?

On the other hand, the things you speak of-well-I guess it's a matter of belief more than anything else-and will. I tend to feel (because one certainly can't spend too much time "thinking" about these things) that it's both free will and fate that determine much of how our lives turn out. I've known too many people who overcame "the cards they were dealt" through their will-and a little luck, or "fate"-and we all know of far too many who have "succumbed to their fate." No to mention the people whose lives are invariably changed by a stroke of unforeseen "luck," not good and bad. In the end, though, I guess the only advice I'd offer anyone pondering this is to stick with the will, and leave fate to the universe-if that bus out there has your name on it, there's little to be done about it but what you're doing in the meantime, so you might as well be exercising your will, or at least trying to.

 

[heretic888]

I think it's well established that individuals may be born into environmental conditions or inherit certain qualities (both genetic and epigenetic) that they have little or no control over.

But, what I find personally curious is the number of people that feel the need to appeal to (or is that invent?) supernatural explanations for these causal factors. In other words, when the son of an alcoholic mother raised in a low-income, high-violence community lives a life of struggle and conflict, it is not because he was the son of an alcholic that lived in terrible circumstances. No, it's because some supernatural Other (however so defined) has "lessons" for him to learn. Obviously.

And, of course, the sons and daughters of the rich, non-alcoholic parents had apparently already learned all the "lessons" they needed to learn in the womb. Obviously.

People, please. Let's be rational here. There is no need to appeal to "God" or "fate" or "karma" or whatever when there are perfectly obvious and perfectly natural explanations for why these things happen. Alcholism exists. Poverty exists. Depression exists. Genetic disorders exist. War exists. Crime exists.

After all, life sucks --- that's the First Noble Truth of Buddhism. There's plenty of examples that attest to this.

There's some stuff you don't have much control over, unfortunately enough. However, there's plenty enough that you can do something about. Don't buy into this nonsense. Ideas like "fate" and "destiny" were not invented to help you understand things, they were invented to keep you in line. C'mon, you're better than that.

Oh, and contrary to what another posted stated, the "alternative" is infinitely better than this defeatist self-victimization ideology.

Laterz.

 

[elder999]

I But, what I find personally curious is the number of people that feel the need to appeal to (or is that invent?) supernatural explanations for these causal factors. In other words, when the son of an alcoholic mother raised in a low-income, high-violence community lives a life of struggle and conflict, it is not because he was the son of an alcholic that lived in terrible circumstances. No, it's because some supernatural Other (however so defined) has "lessons" for him to learn. Obviously.

While we're agreed in principle, I don't necessarily think that's what's meant by some here.

There's some stuff you don't have much control over, unfortunately enough. However, there's plenty enough that you can do something about. Don't buy into this nonsense. Ideas like "fate" and "destiny" were not invented to help you understand things, they were invented to keep you in line. C'mon, you're better than that.

Oh, and contrary to what another posted stated, the "alternative" is infinitely better than this defeatist self-victimization ideology.

Laterz.

I don't think ideas like "fate" and "destiny" necessarily mean the same things for some of us-I know they don't for me. I don't think there's anything supernatural involved-it's more of a case of taking a left turn or a right-left leads to lunch with your sweetheart, and right (maybe to pick up some flowers for your sweetheart first) leads to a collision with a cement truck.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

"Twenties: Start life, start a career, play more, gather some conquests and become rather obnoxious and self-righteous about all that one knows" -Shesulsa

 

[heretic888]

"Twenties: Start life, start a career, play more, gather some conquests and become rather obnoxious and self-righteous about all that one knows" -Shesulsa