Calling all Kickboxers! Do you have a grading syllabus/belt system in kickboxing?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The studio I work out at has a Muay Boran program there...the non-sportive mother art of Muay Thati. They have a ranking structure in place, but based moe on titles and pieces of rope and stuff, not gi's and belts.

 

[Jimi]

My question is, how many out there believe that Black Belt Rank in Karate, TKD or another art qualifies you to prepare someone for Amateur or Pro Full Contact? Not saying Karate & TKD people can not kick or punch hard (That was never my assertion)

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

My question is, how many out there believe that Black Belt Rank in Karate, TKD or another art qualifies you to prepare someone for Amateur or Pro Full Contact? Not saying Karate & TKD people can not kick or punch hard (That was never my assertion)

Different animals. Can't prepare for a marathon by doing push-ups; you gotta get out and run. Traditional martial arts training may prepare one for whatever contexts a given art focuses on. But the only way to prep for ring play is to drill in the relative skills sets.

 

[Jimi]

[quote Kerry Roop came right out of TKD and is a 5 time title holder. Several guys out there came from similar roots.[/quote]

I respect that people with a TKD background that have been very successful in Full Contact. That is a great achievement. Trimble, Eddie Butcher lesser known names than Bill Wallace & Joe Lewis etc... all had Karate or TKD backgrounds. I just think that being a Black Belt does not automaticaly prepare someone to handle a Full Contact Fighters corner. This (Cornering) in my opinion is critical for the fighters success & safety. North American Kickboxing (Kicks above the waist) is a punishing sport to compete in no doubt. I believe that training & experience in Boxing is a definite plus. Again, Is Black Belt rank equal to Full Contact Coach? Some assoc's like Joe Lewis' train people for Full Contact & have the training & experience for preparing fighters for Full Contact, although I believe that a Black Belt rank from a former Champ like Joe Lewis is not the same as other Black Belt ranks, his ring experience goes beyond that of the typical BB due to his training in Boxing & working with Full Contact Amateur & Pro Assoc's. I hope I am being understood.

 

[dungeonworks]

[quote Kerry Roop came right out of TKD and is a 5 time title holder. Several guys out there came from similar roots.

I respect that people with a TKD background that have been very successful in Full Contact. That is a great achievement. Trimble, Eddie Butcher lesser known names than Bill Wallace & Joe Lewis etc... all had Karate or TKD backgrounds. I just think that being a Black Belt does not automaticaly prepare someone to handle a Full Contact Fighters corner. This (Cornering) in my opinion is critical for the fighters success & safety. North American Kickboxing (Kicks above the waist) is a punishing sport to compete in no doubt. I believe that training & experience in Boxing is a definite plus. Again, Is Black Belt rank equal to Full Contact Coach? Some assoc's like Joe Lewis' train people for Full Contact & have the training & experience for preparing fighters for Full Contact, although I believe that a Black Belt rank from a former Champ like Joe Lewis is not the same as other Black Belt ranks, his ring experience goes beyond that of the typical BB due to his training in Boxing & working with Full Contact Amateur & Pro Assoc's. I hope I am being understood.[/quote]

You are preaching to the choir here. Blackbelt status in reality is relative to speciffic styles and moreover, speciffic schools. To clarify what I meant in my post is that AMP-RYU has a group/class going and is applying it in whatever venues he and his crew compete in, and assumingly these are kickboxing smokers or similar events. I respect that and if he is seeking his own way of doing so such as focusing on leg techniques with the strategy of not getting hit, which I read as he is trying to teach his guys to get hit minmally....that is not unlike most striking sports/styles. I didn't read anywhere where he stated that he teaches them to never get hit, which anyone that has sparred full or even medium contact is shown the truth of that reality, that it is impossible to not ever get hit.

I do see your point on the importance of having a competent corner man, and if AMP-RYU fights or has fought a few times at least, I think he will know when to toss in the towel for his fighters even at the expense of upsetting his guys. I agree with you that a blackbelt alone is not a sole and complete skill for cornering a kickboxer and think the quoted post above is a great and very valid point.

 

[Jimi]

I agree 100%. I believe that great Kickboxers (North American Kickboxing or Eastern Kickboxing) can come from a Karate & TKD background. I believe my questions about cornering experience & Amateur assoc's offended AMP-RYU's sensibilities. I told him he would hate me for my opinion (I was right). I do agree that depending on the Assoc's (Such a Joe Lewis') that Black Belt rank CAN be quite sufficient for fielding a Full Contact Fighter, just not a BB from any Assoc's are the same as Former Champ Joe Lewis'. I do agree depending on the Assoc's history, a Black Belt can be rank for Kickboxing. Even Bando does it, and we work thru state athletic commisions for sanctioned bouts. I just don't think that BB rank alone & letting students bang away Full Force is equal to Kickboxing like Joe Lewis' carrer. Thanks for the discussion Dungeonworks.

 

[AMP-RYU]

[/quote]You are preaching to the choir here. Blackbelt status in reality is relative to speciffic styles and moreover, speciffic schools. To clarify what I meant in my post is that AMP-RYU has a group/class going and is applying it in whatever venues he and his crew compete in, and assumingly these are kickboxing smokers or similar events. I respect that and if he is seeking his own way of doing so such as focusing on leg techniques with the strategy of not getting hit, which I read as he is trying to teach his guys to get hit minmally....that is not unlike most striking sports/styles. I didn't read anywhere where he stated that he teaches them to never get hit, which anyone that has sparred full or even medium contact is shown the truth of that reality, that it is impossible to not ever get hit. I do see your point on the importance of having a competent corner man, and if AMP-RYU fights or has fought a few times at least, I think he will know when to toss in the towel for his fighters even at the expense of upsetting his guys. I agree with you that a blackbelt alone is not a sole and complete skill for cornering a kickboxer and think the quoted post above is a great and very valid point.[/quote]

This is all Im trying to say. Thank you dungeon! I have a sport class and we compete in full contact events. Nothing professionally sanctioned or any thing like that. Im not saying that I couldnt get sanctioning if I wanted it, but I dont. My students have never asked n or wanted to be professional fighters, all they want is to be a part of something. And they are! My guys/girls are good and can fight, and of course I know when to throw the towel in if needed. Hey I have tried "boxing" before...believe me I have. But I couldnt keep my feet on the ground, So I went back to what I like which is a kicking sport.

 

[Tez3]

kickboxing smokers or similar events

What are they?

 

[jarrod]

kickboxing smokers or similar events

What are they?

they are informal, usually unsanctioned events...you show up, they match you with someone around you weight & hopefully experience, & you have a fight. they are a popular way for boxers & kicboxers to gain experience, though it's not as common with mma.

jf

 

[dungeonworks]

they are informal, usually unsanctioned events...you show up, they match you with someone around you weight & hopefully experience, & you have a fight. they are a popular way for boxers & kicboxers to gain experience, though it's not as common with mma.

jf

It is up this way Jarrod. In MI amatuer fights are done this way. Up until recently, amatuer is all that MMA guys had since pro santioning is less than a year old up here. It was that way at the XXXtreme fights I went to in Goshen Indiana too.

 

[jarrod]

there's too much money in amateur mma around here for the promoters to let it be wasted on smokers. the only difference between pro & am in rules is that the ammeys can't use elbows. so promoters get all these amateurs to fight in big shows; they put on the same fight as pros pretty much & all they pay them is a percentage of the tickets they sell themselves. i try to tell my guys not to bother fighting local mma until they want to fight pro, so far they start out amateur though.

jf

 

[Jimi]

One of my long time friends Brooks Miller (Khun Kao), the VA State Director of Amateur Muay Thai (Not a Black Belt) holds smokers in the DC area. He has recently set up a full Muay Thai rules event, I believe in april. Look into Khun Kao Promotions. Cool stuff. On a side note, I never insisted anyone has to be Pro sanctioned to fight full contact, although Amateur events that are sanctioned have better referees, cornering training, ring side doctors & even insurance. I believe this is a good thing for the fighters. When I was involved in the USABF & the USJA I was required to pay a membership fee of about $40-$45 a year for membership (This was over a decade ago mind you), this included insurance coverage at events, in training & even on the way to a from training. I was surprised to find out that this insurance would cover me in a vehicle accident on the way to train. That is DAMN good coverage for a fighter. So yes I side with the Amateur Sanctioning Bodies for Full Contact. If someone choses not to, that is their perogative. Again I hope my opinion is being heard. JIMI

 

[AMP-RYU]

One of my long time friends Brooks Miller (Khun Kao), the VA State Director of Amateur Muay Thai (Not a Black Belt) holds smokers in the DC area. He has recently set up a full Muay Thai rules event, I believe in april. Look into Khun Kao Promotions. Cool stuff. On a side note, I never insisted anyone has to be Pro sanctioned to fight full contact, although Amateur events that are sanctioned have better referees, cornering training, ring side doctors & even insurance. I believe this is a good thing for the fighters. When I was involved in the USABF & the USJA I was required to pay a membership fee of about $40-$45 a year for membership (This was over a decade ago mind you), this included insurance coverage at events, in training & even on the way to a from training. I was surprised to find out that this insurance would cover me in a vehicle accident on the way to train. That is DAMN good coverage for a fighter. So yes I side with the Amateur Sanctioning Bodies for Full Contact. If someone choses not to, that is their perogative. Again I hope my opinion is being heard. JIMI

Seriously you opinion really doesnt mean anything to anyone here! I also hold insurance on all my students and fighters and it also covers them on their way and from my school and in tournaments as well. Ok so if no one who trains kickboxers have a background in martial arts...who teaches them correct technique when kicking? Isnt this the same as having no experience in boxing? Im confused..You claim that a kickboxer cant be trained by a martial artist because no boxing background, but what about the other variable in kickboxing....the "KICK". Oh I guess it is ok for a boxing instructor to teach kicks to a kickboxer without a martial arts background. Your just one of those people who believe that your right and no one else can do anything because it is not your way! Also what makes sanctioned referees "BETTER"? Its just another way for someone else to get their hands in where they really dont need to be all the time!

 

[Jimi]

Lighten up. You are the one throwing around assertions. You are saying that I am not a Martial Artist. Why, because I do have a background in Boxing & Kickboxing? I also hold 1st, 2nd & 3rd degree Black Belts in Karate & TKD. I am a Certified Black Belt in ABA Bando. I also have a 2nd Degree Black Belt In Kenbo. That is Martial Arts. You are the one not showing respect here. Ask the Mods or other Members if they think my opinion means nothing. Ask them if I am out of line with posting my opinions.

 

[exile]

Folks, everyone understands that people develop strong feelings about MA matters—but one of the virtues of Martial Talk as a discussion board is that people are encouraged to express their views strongly, but in a civil fashion, so that light is generated and heat is kept to a minimum. Please let's try to maintain that kind of discourse in this thread—reason and well-thought-out argumentation are still the best ways to persuade people that yours is the right position. Getting hot under the collar does nothing but, um, get the Mods kind of alert, you know?