Calling all Kickboxers! Do you have a grading syllabus/belt system in kickboxing?

[myusername]

Hello folks,

I am currently looking at kickboxing schools in Bristol, England and pretty much every kickboxing school I have found has a belt system from white to black belt. In another thread, when I queried one of the schools pricing structure for the gradings people seemed genuinely rather shocked that there was a belt system at all.

Are there any kickboxers on this forum who could shed any light on this? Is there normally a grading syllabus in Kickboxing? Or is my city a little weird for having such a large proportion of schools offering one?

Obviously non kickboxers offer your views as well. Can you have a black belt in Kickboxing?

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Can you have a black belt in Kickboxing?

You could have a rank in Muay Thai kickboxing, but not just kickboxing.
Kickboxing is something you do with a style; it is not a style itself.

If someone says their style is "kickboxing," that is kind of like asking what football team they play on their reply is "Super Bowl." The answer just doesn't make sense.

AoG

 

[jarrod]

the closest thing to a grading in kickboxing will be based on ring experience. i.e., 0-5 fights, you're a novice, 6-15 fights, you're intermediate...something like that. but no, white belts & black belts are virtually unheard of.

my coach teaches kickboxing as well as kung fu. on sparring nights the kickboxers & kung fu students all spar together. if someone does kung fu & kickboxing, they get sashes for kung fu. if they just do kung fu, they get sashes for kung fu. if they just kickbox, they just kickbox.

hope this helps! & listen to tez's recommendations on schools to check out.

jf

 

[IcemanSK]

The kickboxing gym where I trained years ago did have a belt system. It was based on knowledge of full contact rules kickboxing & a bit of Tang Soo Do (the head trainer was a 3rd Dan in TSD). The school was open for 20 years & only 3 BB's were awarded.

I was there in the last 5 years of operation (the trainer died) & tested to green belt in that system.

We had a lot of world champion boxers & kickboxers train there. The belt system was a bit of an aside when I got there. How one fought in the ring was always more important than one's belt rank. By the time I got there, even the BB's didn't wear them.

 

[myusername]

I have been searching around the web and on other forums (nowhere near as good as this one I must add!) on this subject. Because I must admit to being confused that something so uncommon is so very very common in my area. I mean every single school bar the mma ones that I have looked at has a grading syllabus for kickboxing in my town.

I came across this thread that seems to make the point that this could be a european phenomenom. This could perhaps explain why it is so rare in America but widespread across the UK.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-4724.html

Then there was this one that shows that kickboxing ranks do exist but debates whether or not they should;

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061005063438AAEUSCx

and then this one that is Mauy Thai orientated but debates the merits of grading at all, again indicating that a lot of clubs offer gradings.

http://message.axkickboxing.com/index.phtml?action=dispthread&topic=16248&junk=1120654400.66864

My own personal take on this is that you don't need gradings in kickboxing. Kickboxing is about fighting and it does not matter if you have a yellow belt or a black belt all that matters is whether you can beat the opponent sharing the ring with you.

I am looking at two clubs this week which both have a grading syllabus on offer. Despite the warnings on this site I am not concerned as I feel a bit more reassured now that this may be a european thing and not necessarily a sign of a mcdojo. Apparently students are not obligated to take gradings in the clubs I am visiting but it is an optional extra. I will probably not be eligible anyway due to only being able to train once a week because I do my jujutsu on my other training nights.

However, I will keep an open mind and look closely at the differences in skill between the black belts and lower ranks to ascertain wether the schools grading system has merit and is not just a money making scheme. If the ranking system is availiable to me and makes sense then, due to me only training once a week, and as such unlikely to train for competition then then I can see no real harm in grading to measure my progress. Obviously, only if I can see from the skill sets of the other students that the ranking system does in fact genuinely measure progress.

I'll probably keep quiet when around other martial artists if I ever become a black belt in kickboxing though

 

[AMP-RYU]

I personally teach sport kickboxing, its for the students who want to learn the kicks blocks attacks without the whole "karate" setting. It brings a whole new class of students (16-25 year olds male/female) and I do test my kickboxing students. Its based off skill. I have a certain skill level my students should be at and expect.

White belt-orange belt
4 months
kicks blocks hand strikes
spar 1 - 2min round

Orange-Blue belt
4 months
kicks blocking hand strikes
spar 2 - 3min rounds

blue-red belt
6 months
kicks blocks hands
spar 3 - 3min rounds

red - black belt
10 months
kicks combos blocks hand tech
spar 5 - 3min rounds

Just the way I do it and it works for me, not all students want to go through all the forms/katas and traditional karate....this allows for a whole new era of student.:asian:

 

[jarrod]

I personally teach sport kickboxing, its for the students who want to learn the kicks blocks attacks without the whole "karate" setting. It brings a whole new class of students (16-25 year olds male/female) and I do test my kickboxing students. Its based off skill. I have a certain skill level my students should be at and expect.

do you have a background in boxing? just curious.

jf

 

[lklawson]

People who go to teaching Kickboxing from Boxing will find the idea of belt-ranks odd. People who move to teaching Kickboxing from teaching Karate will import a similar belt-rank structure almost every time. This is common. Heck there was even an episode of Fraser where the brother (Niles) claimed to be a "Yellow Belt" in his "Kickboxing" style.

Savate (Boxe Francaise/French Boxing) has "glove" ranks which are, historically, based on ring performance with Silver Gloves being the top rank. However, some have recently began importing a technique/skills based ranking structure and incorporating that into the glove ranks.

Again, this is not without precedent. Some Judo organizations won't promote to some ranks (notably shodan) unless the student has participated in some tournaments.

What it boils down to is, like any other generic term such as "Karate," it depends entirely on the predilections of the school and there is absolutely no uniform consensus.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[AMP-RYU]

do you have a background in boxing? just curious.

jf

No background in boxing.....dont see the point of using just your hands when you have two perfectly good legs!:asian:

 

[jarrod]

No background in boxing.....dont see the point of using just your hands when you have two perfectly good legs!:asian:

then how do you teach kickboxing? not trying to be a jerk or anything, but kickboxing isn't just karate with out the katas.

jf

 

[AMP-RYU]

then how do you teach kickboxing? not trying to be a jerk or anything, but kickboxing isn't just karate with out the katas.

jf

Its just exactly that! I teach in a sport environment sparring with the feet and hands without getting hit back. But with my martial arts background I also teach my students how to move around the ring using their feet, which when I watch "Kickboxing" on television or at tournaments most fighters lack. Also most kickboxers just put their hands up and take a hit I teach not to get hit.

As far as how do "I" teach it, hopefully the same way anyone else teaches it, I start "class" by warming up, than my fighters put on their gear....gloves, head gear, and we spar in a ring. I teach them how to watch for certain pre motions to judge their opponants next movement and strike before they do.

Listen my man, "muay tai" is not the only kickboxing martial art, and hopefully anyone teaching kickboxing has some sort of martial arts background. Kickboxing is not just wailing your hands and feet at you opponant until someone gets knocked out. Its also about control and any "martial artist" can kickbox.

Being a martial artist, and training for many years I take offense to anyone questioning my ability to teach a way of sparring, just because I have no boxing background. All "boxing" is, is a sport wailing your arms at your opponant trying to knock them out. I dont see the point in just using your hands if you have feet as well, so I would never train in just boxing.

If their is so much more to kickboxing than blocking your opponant and throwing an offensive, than I would like to hear. Thank you

 

[AMP-RYU]

then how do you teach kickboxing? not trying to be a jerk or anything, but kickboxing isn't just karate with out the katas.

jf

The term kickboxing was created by the Japanese boxing promoter Osamu Noguchi for a variant of Muay Thai and "Karate" that he created in the 1950s. The term was later used by the American variant. When used by the practitioners of those two styles, it usually refers to those styles specifically.

 

[jarrod]

Its just exactly that! I teach in a sport environment sparring with the feet and hands without getting hit back. But with my martial arts background I also teach my students how to move around the ring using their feet, which when I watch "Kickboxing" on television or at tournaments most fighters lack. Also most kickboxers just put their hands up and take a hit I teach not to get hit.

As far as how do "I" teach it, hopefully the same way anyone else teaches it, I start "class" by warming up, than my fighters put on their gear....gloves, head gear, and we spar in a ring. I teach them how to watch for certain pre motions to judge their opponants next movement and strike before they do.

Listen my man, "muay tai" is not the only kickboxing martial art, and hopefully anyone teaching kickboxing has some sort of martial arts background. Kickboxing is not just wailing your hands and feet at you opponant until someone gets knocked out. Its also about control and any "martial artist" can kickbox.

Being a martial artist, and training for many years I take offense to anyone questioning my ability to teach a way of sparring, just because I have no boxing background. All "boxing" is, is a sport wailing your arms at your opponant trying to knock them out. I dont see the point in just using your hands if you have feet as well, so I would never train in just boxing.

If their is so much more to kickboxing than blocking your opponant and throwing an offensive, than I would like to hear. Thank you

well first of all like i mentioned i wasn't trying to be a jerk, so stay cool. second if you think all boxing is is wailing your arms away you really should spend a little time with a boxing coach as there's a lot of science to it. third i never said you couldn't teach sparring, i questioned whether you were qualified to teach kickboxing, since boxing is in integral part of kickboxing. most kickboxing instructors are trained specifically in a form of kickboxing, or have trained boxing & added it to their other martial arts experience. if you want to teach a sparring class i think that's great, but i personally wouldn't call it kickboxing.

jf

 

[myusername]

All "boxing" is, is a sport wailing your arms at your opponant trying to knock them out. I dont see the point in just using your hands if you have feet as well, so I would never train in just boxing.

I don't wish to fan the flames of this post as I can see that you were replying with passion and that this may explain your use of words, but I would sincerely hope that someone teaching kickboxing doesn't view regular boxing in this way. There is so much more to boxing than wailing your arms at your opponent! There is stance, footwork, defensive and evasive movement and mastery of body mechanics to develop the power behind the punch, there is hard training and drilling of technique and real skill in the well trained boxers delivery of combinations.

A kickboxer neglecting hand skills is a kickboxer missing out on a huge range of offensive techniques and a kickboxer that is limiting themselves to only being able to fight at kicking range. I would also suggest that a kickboxer who has no boxing skills is giving their opponent a weakness that is very easy to exploit. Close them down and they are yours for the taking.

 

[AMP-RYU]

I don't wish to fan the flames of this post as I can see that you were replying with passion and that this may explain your use of words, but I would sincerely hope that someone teaching kickboxing doesn't view regular boxing in this way. There is so much more to boxing than wailing your arms at your opponent! There is stance, footwork, defensive and evasive movement and mastery of body mechanics to develop the power behind the punch, there is hard training and drilling of technique and real skill in the well trained boxers delivery of combinations.

A kickboxer neglecting hand skills is a kickboxer missing out on a huge range of offensive techniques and a kickboxer that is limiting themselves to only being able to fight at kicking range. I would also suggest that a kickboxer who has no boxing skills is giving their opponent a weakness that is very easy to exploit. Close them down and they are yours for the taking.

I understand this, Im not knocking boxing. I just dont think you need a background in boxing in order to teach kickboxing! And as I stated above kickboxing was developed from karate! So for him to tell me I cant teach kickboxing because__________ I dont think this is correct. There are different ways of kickboxing, not just one way. I teach sport kickboxing, I train my fighters and we do matches. So are you saying that if one of my students goes into a kickboxing match and fights using more of the legs and blocking than since they know "karate" they must be cheating? So if they win I guess they still cant kickbox? I really dont know what this discussion is over, all I know is that I personally would never question another martial artists background in a public forum! I feel disrespected even though you said you meant no disrespect.

 

[AMP-RYU]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Basic Explanation of various "Rules Styles" of Kickboxing[/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Kickboxing has several different rules which fighters can compete in. Each having their own distinct style. [/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive][FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]"Full Contact Rules" or better known as "FCR" - this name is a little misleading. It is derived from the earlier days of full contact sport karate. FCR is actually the most limited and does not allow kicks to the legs, nor can the fighter use knees, elbows or throws. Even though this rule's style is more limited then the others, it does not mean it is less intense! FCR fighters, both professional and amateurs, wear Karate pants and foam foot and shin protection. Most amateurs wear head gear, but the pros do not. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive][FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]"International Rules" or "IR" allows kicks to the legs as well as the upper torso, but no knees, elbows or throws. IR fighters traditionally wear Boxing shorts or Muay Thai shorts. They also wear shin and instep protection (The shin/instep allows the toes to stick out and is usually fabric or leather, not the foam as used in FCR). Again, most amateurs will wear headgear while professionals will not wear any of the protective gear except boxing gloves. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]​

[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[myusername]

I understand this, Im not knocking boxing. I just dont think you need a background in boxing in order to teach kickboxing! And as I stated above kickboxing was developed from karate! So for him to tell me I cant teach kickboxing because__________ I dont think this is correct. There are different ways of kickboxing, not just one way. I teach sport kickboxing, I train my fighters and we do matches. So are you saying that if one of my students goes into a kickboxing match and fights using more of the legs and blocking than since they know "karate" they must be cheating? So if they win I guess they still cant kickbox? I really dont know what this discussion is over, all I know is that I personally would never question another martial artists background in a public forum! I feel disrespected even though you said you meant no disrespect.

No disrespect intended from myself and I apologise if I caused offence. I was replying to your sentence about the merits of boxing specifically. :asian:

I personally do not believe that it is essential that you have a background in boxing to teach kickboxing, although I do think it would help to have some knowledge as it is likely a future opponent will have some boxing skills. I stand by my thinking that it would be a foolish move to ignore/neglect hand skills in kickboxing though. This doesn't have to come from western boxing as there are lots of hand skills already in karate and TKD and your different approach to striking may even throw your opponent off his game but I can honestly say that my punching power has drastically improved since taking up boxing just once a week. It is more than just wailing arms about!

 

[jarrod]

i never said you couldn't teach it, i said i wouldn't personally call it kickboxing. i don't see anything wrong with questioning another martial artist's background so long as it's done respectfully, which i tried to do.

jf

 

[searcher]

I don't want anyone to get any more riled up then they are currently, but I have seen guys from different styles take a shot at kickboxing and I have to say that 99.9% sucked at kickboxing. It was like they had no hand technique at all. They fell back on a sport version of sparring and they got tore up. if a person is teaching kickboxing and they have not spent time boxing then they are doing a dis-service to their students and their school. I require all of my students that want to venture into the kickboxing arena to spend time at a boxing club working on their boxing skills. I boxed GG for 7 years and I teach boxing on a limited level, but I still require my kickboxers to workout with guys who are experts in the Sweet Science.


A question for any who have kickboxers and don't teach them boxing, how do they do? How many fall apart when they get tied up with?

 

[Jimi]

Having been involved in the United States Amateur Boxing Federation as a teen while training in TSD/MDK/TKD & Okinawan Kobudo & Karate among many other arts, I must agree that Black Belt rank in Karate, Tang Soo Do, Moo Duk Kwan or Tae Kwon Do does not a coach in Boxing or Kickboxing make. How does TKD or Karate prepare you to corner for someone in Full Contact be it Boxing or any variation of Kickboxing? It's just is not there unless your Instructor is a recognized Coach by the USABF like one of my Coaches was. People like Joe Lewis have that ring experience, but because Mr Lewis is a BB not does not mean BB rank =Full Contact Coach. I realize I am being harsh here, but I have trained a great deal in Boxing, Bama Lethwei & Muay Thai & it is an insult to see someone state "I don't think you need a background in boxing in order to teach kickboxing". Sounds like " I don't think you need a background in Medicine to give Medical Care, I am certified at CPR, That should be more than enough to operate a practice" Someone who is a BB in Karate does not make a Full Contact Fighting Coach. They are two different animals. I worry for those who would dare fight Full Contact under the training of someone with such a narrow minded view of KICKBOXING. Do you teach Kickboxers for sactioned bouts, or do you just use the term to draw more paying students? Just because you post that you feel disrespected does not give your opinion (that you don't need a boxing background to teach Kickboxing) any more validity. If you teach a system of Karate well know for Full Contact (Like Kyokushin Do, Joe Lewis Full COntact or some other art that really trains you to handle a fighters full contact training & corner) then you there you go, But if you are a BB in Joe Blows corner Karate school, then Full Contact Trainers & Fighters will have issue with your background. AMP-RYU, do you know how to corner a fighter, take care of welts, swelling & cuts? Do you register with an USABF Doctor before & after bouts? Have you ever fought Full Contact yourself? That carries much more weight in Kickboxing cirlces than a Black Belt rank. You will hate me for this post, but the Full Contact Fighters & Coaches who know me would hate me for not giving my opinion. PEACE