Calibre of Swords

[Supra Vijai]

one was an arming sword from the middle ages (I'd guess about 1200-ish, in a private collection) and was covered in rust with the wooden part of the grip missing IIRC, about as blunt as a butter knife due to rust. Even then, the balance was incredible and it still cut 4-litre plastic water bottles (!) like a laser.

I'm afraid my internet speak is not up to date, I worked in hospitality for a couple of years and had no life so trying to catch up! What's IIRC? I've seen it a few times around the site...

With regards to the actual sword, that's amazing that something covered in that much rust in what sounds to be not the best of shape could cut that well... I would have honestly thought that Broadswords were during the time of the knights, not a later weapon. Clearly there is much that I am unaware of, unconscious incompetence as my Sensei would say Time to get reading!

 

[Sukerkin]

In answer to your acronym question, IIRC = If I recall Correctly.

As to the plethora of bladed weapons produced by European smiths, well ...

There are so many that a fellow by the name of Oakeshott came up with a general classification system for some of them:

http://www.oakeshott.org/Typo.html

 

[Sukerkin]

By the way, for a little peak into the martial arts of the European continent, have a view of these:

http://www.thearma.org/Videos/RMAWD.htm

 

[Langenschwert]

I'm afraid my internet speak is not up to date, I worked in hospitality for a couple of years and had no life so trying to catch up! What's IIRC? I've seen it a few times around the site...

With regards to the actual sword, that's amazing that something covered in that much rust in what sounds to be not the best of shape could cut that well... I would have honestly thought that Broadswords were during the time of the knights, not a later weapon. Clearly there is much that I am unaware of, unconscious incompetence as my Sensei would say Time to get reading!

Here's a broadsword: http://highxpress.tripod.com/dance//broadsword.jpg
This is an arming sword: http://sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-guide.com/media/Darksword/ss_size1/Archer-sword.jpg

The term "broadsword" as used by the katana vid is a holdover from 1960's Sword & Sorcery fiction. As much as I enjoy reading Robert E. Howard, using him as a source for hopological terminology is needless to say, not so useful. Not that NatGeo cares... anything they seem to have a hate on for the accomplishments of Western civilisation.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Bruno@MT]

Heft / meat is an apt term.
A Japanese expert told me that a term they use is 'healthy'. The proportions have to be right.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Really appreciating the level of knowledge and support offered by everyone

Sukerkin, that list is daunting! There are 24 categories that I saw on that first page from the link and that's just specific European blades which makes the mind boggle as to how many there are the world over. Thanks also for the acronym clarification and the other link to Renaissance martial arts. Definitely a keeper both of those sites.

Langenschwert, thanks for the clarification there as well. For someone who has only had the exposure of movies/nat geo stuff to swords, the inconsistencies and straight out fabrications are not noticeable at all. Seems to be similar to some kenjutsu videos on this forum that I saw and thought it was fairly well done but my sensei (who has close to 2 decades training behind him) saw them and listed all the flaws and technical errors. Going back and watching the videos again while reading his comments made a massive difference to my perception of the subject matter.

Bruno, in the thread titled Shuriken we briefly discussed how much of the Samurai way was fact and how much has been romanticized after the fact. We spoke about the throwing of the swords etc and the real reasons a Samurai wouldn't have thrown his blade. Something else I have heard is that there was a belief that each sword had it's own "soul", do you know much about this or is that another romantic notion made up to make the stories more interesting? If true, would that be a reason they used the term "healthy"?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Ok this is going into an area where a lot of it depends on opinion.

First of all, yes, the samurai believed that the sword had a soul. The kami of the sword to be precise. This ties in with Japanese philosophy and religion. But this is not limited to samurai. A lot of this belief still lives on today in many aspects, and a lot of people still adhere to those beliefs. I myself have leanings towards those ideas. But that is personal, not fact. Meaning this is not something measurable or outwardly noticeable, and has more to do with beliefs and how those items (swords, knives, ...) are treated and used. It also does not mean that the sword is considered is sentient being.

To give you a practical example: hand crafted blades are preferred by most Japanese chefs. When such blades have become unusable due to extensive sharpening over the years or decades, some chefs send their blades off to a shinto shrine where some sort of cermenony is held, thanking the blade for its service, after which it will be ritually melted and cast to billets for forging a new blade. Healthy is not a word to describe physical health (like biological health) related to the kami.

It is more of a matter of... (I am going to be a bit vague here) in Japanese culture, there is a place for everthing, and everything should be in its place. Items have certain sizes and proportions that are considered 'right'. Meaning a shinken that is not healthy does not have the proportions or size that are considered optimal.

For example, I have a couple of Japanese natural sharpening stones. One of those is fantastic as a final polisher for straight razors (which is what I bought it for). It is of a quality that is normally reserved for sword polishing, with the price tag to match. The reason I was able to afford it was that it did not have the healthy size for a sword sharpening stone. It was not thick enough, compared to its length and width. It was still very expensive, but not the thousands of dollars that it would normally go for. It also did not have the 'right' color.

Additionally, Japanese sharpening stones (many traditional Japanese tools in fact) are not 'for sale' like you would expect in a western style shop. You don't go into a shop, plonk down some cash and say 'I want that'. The seller will not want to sell you anything if he does not have the idea that you can use the thing he is selling you. He may not even show you the really good stuff, and until he is convinced that the sale will not reflect badly on him, the conversation just keeps going round and round forever. Really

So to bring the example back to my stone: if -through lengthy conversation- I had not shown the seller that I had the skills to use that stone, and that I knew for which type of steel it was appropriate, there would never have been a transaction. Some people in Japan selling swords are still like that, and will not sell you a sword if you do not have the skills to wield it and a 'correct' attitude. Not everybody is like that anymore, but I do know stone sellers and smiths who would not sell you anything if they do not have the confidence that you will treat the things you buy properly and that you can use them. Relationships, experience and doing things right are still very important in dealing with traditional Japanese arts.

And finally, about throwing a sword: a sword is meant to kill or maim. Nothing else. If I try to throw a sword into your chest then that would not be disrespectful. I am trying to kill you, which is 'fulfilling' the role of the sword. That is never wrong.

The point is, throwing swords is difficult, and the chances of the sword hitting the ground or the scenery are high. If it hit something like stone, there is a risk of chipping the edge. This is bad because a chipped sword is a liability, and may not be fixable anymore. The 'not throwing swords' is more of a practical consideration. Throwing it for the purpose of killing is not an issue. Otoh, idly tossing your sword in a corner is considered extremely disrespectful. See the difference?

 

[Supra Vijai]

Thanks for that Bruno, Sensei Parker has mentioned once that you knew your stuff when it comes to metallurgy As an ex chef, I know I definitely preferred the Japanese knives to the other stuff. The price tag was a fair bit higher - I think I paid about $300 for one cleaver! - but the quality spoke for itself and as a tool, it paid for itself in the first month of use.

Intangible value is a concept I relate to as well, and find sentimental value/beliefs mean more than just fancy shiny appearances... but they help too

The retail concept you mention there is a great idea I think. It's not enough to have a bit of paper that says you are allowed to carry a weapon, you need to demonstrate an active understanding and respect for said weapon before you can obtain one. That would go a long way in weeding out the people who get swords etc for the coolness factor from the serious martial artists. Quite difficult to enforce in Western society though I would assume. Nothing against either, just very different appraoches and value systems.

As for the difference yes I do see it. We are getting more technical with our approaches to weapons in class now and one of the first things we covered was the etiquette: how to wear a sword, how to draw it, how to present it for inspection, how to take it from someone etc - and the fact that you didn't bump into someone's sword and certainly never step over one if it's lying on the ground or pick up someone elses weapon without asking them.

That being said, due to time constraints and the different attitudes of different students etc, we only covered these things briefly - you just can't expect a room full of Westerners to all get the traditional approach after all, but it is something I am personally deeply interested in.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Related to the retail angle: if you want to get anywhere with someone you don't know, getting a personal referral or introduction from a mutual friend / business partner will do wonders. I've experienced that before when I was looking for something specific.

An introduction or referral is a very serious thing. If someone puts you in contact with someone else, he is vouching for you as a person and for your skills / experience. And if you turn out to be less than satisfactory in any way, that reflects badly on him as well. So you will basically not get that referral until or unless you have a positive relationship in the first place. Introductions are serious affairs.

And as for expecting westerners to 'get' this...
Genbukan is strict in etiquette. We are traditionalists, and we expect all of our members to conform to that. They may not always agree on a personal level or see the point, but they will follow the example they're given, from day 1, because it is made clear that that is how we work. We don't care about how many members we have. We just care that the members we have are ones who fit in. In fact, a major part of the 10th kyu exam is understanding the basic etiquette, ways of bowing and how to behave in the various circumstances.

 

[Supra Vijai]

And as for expecting westerners to 'get' this...
Genbukan is strict in etiquette. We are traditionalists, and we expect all of our members to conform to that. They may not always agree on a personal level or see the point, but they will follow the example they're given, from day 1, because it is made clear that that is how we work. We don't care about how many members we have. We just care that the members we have are ones who fit in. In fact, a major part of the 10th kyu exam is understanding the basic etiquette, ways of bowing and how to behave in the various circumstances.

Sorry I may not have explained myself properly, everyone of our students is expect to follow the dojo rules and etiquette at all times. In fact all of us have signed an agreement stating this and face being barred from training if we have a serious breach. What I meant with not everyone getting it was more the philosophical aspects in their full depth and capacity rather than the surface traditions. As we progress through the ranks however, a certain level of maturation is expected with regards to the mindset from what I can gather. Of course, I can't say that for sure having not gone through the ranks far enough myself

 

[Rayban]

Its also just comes with the accumulation of knowledge.

The more we learn the more we want to learn.

I think its a very realistic expectation of someone whos been training for a while to want to dig deeper into the meanings, philosophies and history on top of the methods.

 

[Sukerkin]

Quite so, gentlemen.

With the sword arts (and most martial arts in general I would hope) an understanding of culture and context, the 'spiritual' canvas on which the art is drawn, is something that is quite important - at least for those wanting to learn more than just how to slice someone into quivering chunks :lol:.

For a great many koryu schools, not wanting 'to be bothered' with such 'irrelevant history' is a good sign that maybe that student is not yet ready to learn much more of the 'practical' side than they already have.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Quite so, gentlemen.

With the sword arts (and most martial arts in general I would hope) an understanding of culture and context, the 'spiritual' canvas on which the art is drawn, is something that is quite important - at least for those wanting to learn more than just how to slice someone into quivering chunks :lol:.

For a great many koryu schools, not wanting 'to be bothered' with such 'irrelevant history' is a good sign that maybe that student is not yet ready to learn much more of the 'practical' side than they already have.

Sukerkin, something we do at the end of each class is have an open forum so to speak where all students are invited to share any questions, comments or feedback about the class, ninjutsu or just something important to them and Sensei Parker expands on it from a philosophical aspect. For instance a while ago I mentioned that I realised the importance of keeping your wrist straight during a hanbo strike and the response delved into congruent personalities etc as opposed to just the base mechanics.

In that sense, we are exposed to the spiritual canvas regularly. For me personally the traditional elements are the most important as I believe all of our "modern" work stems directly from the traditional concepts - not to mention that we are training a TMA, not an RBSD course. That being said, my views will be different to other student's and my level of interest/my conduct will be different because of the cultural background I come from. Being Indian, a lot of the ideologies expressed in Japanese learning carries over and vice versa. You respect your teacher. That is an absolute. You learn everything that is taught to you. That is an absolute. You ask questions only out of interest and only in order to expand your understanding of something on deeper levels than just the surface that a beginner will see. Yet another absolute. Personally I think it makes training easier for me and improves my relationship with Sensei Parker on a student/teacher level because as I'm sure you're aware he is a purist when it comes to the arts and that approach is something that's been instilled into me from a very young age.

But there are some people who just want to cut people into quivering chunks as you put it and I'm sure there's always going to be someone willing to teach them just that as well

On the topic of blades though, open question to everyone. As swordsmen, do you prefer Koto Blades, Shinto Blades or Gendaito Blades to work with? Not in a collection sense or value, just as utilitarian tools (tameshigiri etc). I've been reading a very interesting book entitled 'The Craft of the Japanese Sword' which was lent to myself by Sensei Parker and it covers a lot of the reasons as to why blades may be priced the way they are but it also has differing opinions on old blades vs new blades. A couple of collectors state that they prefer the Gendaito as they believe them to be stronger and of better overall quality if not as historically rich or aesthetically pleasing.