Buying a Sword - Please Advise!

[Flying Crane]

Hey Michael,
Just catching up to this thread, so I'll throw my two cent's worth into it ...
As regards the discounted swords, it depends on what you're looking for, and what the price is. If he has them at 40% off of his marked price but you can still buy it cheaper on the internet, then I wouldn't think it was too great of a deal. The biggest problem that I've come across in any of the Chinese made "Japanese style" swords, is that the quality of any individual sword can vary greatly from one right next to it. The way they are made, there are a number of people working in a factory putting these together. If the person doing the final shaping and polish is good at it, then you'll get a decently shaped sword. Likewise, if the person wrapping the handle knows what he's doing, then you'll get a decently tight wrap. The problem is getting a sword where all of the people working on it were good at their jobs. There are far less of those out there. Being able to handle the sword in person before buying it can help eliminate the guesswork that's usually involved with it. I'm sure you can find lots of information on both Ryumon and Musashi if you search for them over on Swordforum.

Yes, this is why I am generally skeptical of something coming out of China. Many are just horrendous junk, but once in a while comes along something a bit better. But I am a disbeliever in general and it takes a bit to convince me. Hence my thread here...

As regards high end blades bending, yes they will. Due to the nature of Japanese swords, they are actually meant to bend if you seriously mess up. However, proper training will tend to eliminate that problem, and higher quality swords tend to have much better heat treatment, which means that they don't bend as easily. On a slightly different note, whacking tree branches with a katana is foolish. They are designed to cut flesh, not foliage. Machete or khukri are more properly designed to cut tree limbs without damaging the sword.

Yes, understood, and I was not endorsing cutting heavy tree limbs with a katana style weapon. That was just the test done on that particular blade to see how well it would hold up, and that brought up the issue of the blade bending and made me go "hmmm....."

As regards 5160 steel, it is good for European style blades, not katana, due to its lower carbon content which will not allow it to harden as much as needed. European style blades are not generally as sharp as katana, and they will not hold the edge as long. This is because of the method wherein they are used. Katana are designed to be very sharp due to the hardness of the edge. Don't mean to argue with Mr. Dunn, but lower 60's on the Rockwell hardness range is where I've been told the edge on a Japanese sword should be. Western swords have edges in the mid 50's. However, it is the softness of the back of the blade (mid to upper 40's) which allows the edge to be so hard and not crack.

As far as I'm aware, there's only one sword that combines the hardness of a traditional katana edge with a spring back rather than a soft back. That's Howard Clark's L6 bainite blades. He's only able to do that because of the intricate cryogenic hardening regimen he follows.

Ah-ha. A light just went on. The difference between the soft back and the spring back, that accounts for the bending, but it must be done that way to support the superhard edge. With the exception of Mr. Clark's bainite blades. Do you have any specific info or a website I could go to check out his stuff? Thanks!

 

[pgsmith]

I tracked down some stuff of Howard's: here's his own web site ... http://www.mvforge.com/ Howard and Christine are both great people.

Here's an article from a few years ago about Howard's L6 blades ... http://swordforum.com/summer99/howardclark.html

 

[Flying Crane]

I wanted to thank everyone for all their input here. I feel like I'm getting a bit of a crash course on the whys of how a katana is put together, and it's been very interesting and informative. Much appreciated.

 

[Flying Crane]

Without exception, every Musashi blade I have seen has looked reasonably nice, but everytime I've checked the tsukaito, the folds in the ito move with just moderately firm pressure, ie the wrap's are pretty loose. The wrap will stand up to display, and maybe some occasional light cutting(althought I wouldn't), but they will not stand up to the rigors of regular training.

Hey Charles,

How many of these Musashis have you looked at, and what level of their line were they? Were they the lower end, available as low as $60 or so, or was it a midlevel priced around $200-$300, or a high end at $1000 or so? Thanks!

 

[hogstooth]

Hi everyone,

Have any of you heard of these two companies: Musashi, or Ryumon?

I don't know anything about Musashi.
Whether I would tell you to buy Ryumon or not would strickly be based on what you are going to use it for and how much you are going to pay for it. I have several Shinken that I use for tamashigiri, and none of them were under $2k. My daughter signed me up for a cataloge that sells "swords". Ryumon was represented in force. Since I had never had any experience with them and the price was more than reasonable and their claims were impressive I bought one for my daughter.
I hate to talk badly about anyones product but lets say if you are planning to use it for tamashigiri, don't buy it. It makes an excellent wall display. I would look into their web site (if they have one, not sure) and you would probably find that you can get them pretty cheap on sale.

 

[hogstooth]

Update; the catolog my daughter signed me up for is called collectors edge. Most of the stuff is cheap flea market stuff. I couldn't find a Ryumon sword over $300.00 and most are $150 range. You can even find some as low as the $60 range. Some would make a nice wall mount display but as I said in the first post, I bought the most expensive one they had listed and it wasn't a blade you would use for tamishigiri. Most are made of 1060 high carbon steel and did not mention heat treating.
I make custom forged knives and have made a few swords. You need to look for swords made from 5160, L6, and 9260 or 1045, 1060, 1095 high carbon steel with a good differential heat treatment or the traditional way of wrapping a mild carbon steel core (soft) with a high carbon steel shell (hard). The reason for this is two fold. One you want a blade that can hold an edge after multiple cuts and hard use, and you want it to give and deflect. Too martensitic (hard) and it will shatter, too soft and it will warp and bend.
If you are looking to buy a good blade that will last try contacting Don Fogg or Daniel at Angel Sword store, or contact private collectors. If you are looking for a decent blade that doesn't cost you an arm and a leg ($2000 and under) try Bugei. I have two of their swords and they hold up fine and are very functional. If that is too expensive try Thaisuki Nihonto, CAS / Hanwei, Cheness, Dynasty Forge or chris zhuo just to name a few. I can't recommend any of these but have recieved differing reports, some good, about these and the price range is between $600 and $1000. Good luck. Hope you find one that is functional and in your price range.

 

[TheFiveRings]

If you're looking for a low-end functional sword for light test-cutting a Musashi or Masahiro will work; you can get them for about $60-$120. If want a high-quality properly forged and treated sword expect to spend around $1,000+. Paul Chen has some decent functional swords for around $200.

As for swordmaking:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/sword-making.htm

 

[hogstooth]

Flying Crane, just curious, did you ever get a blade? If so from where and have you tested it? How did it perform?

 

[Archangel M]

I would say a lot depends on what you plan on doing with it.. right??

 

[hogstooth]

I would say a lot depends on what you plan on doing with it.. right??

Absolutely. A lot depends on the use.

 

[Flying Crane]

Flying Crane, just curious, did you ever get a blade? If so from where and have you tested it? How did it perform?

No, I never did. I finally felt that what was being offered just probably was not worth acquiring. I'm not actually training in a Japanese sword method, so it would be just a collection item really, so I decided I didn't need it right now.

 

[hogstooth]

No, I never did. I finally felt that what was being offered just probably was not worth acquiring. I'm not actually training in a Japanese sword method, so it would be just a collection item really, so I decided I didn't need it right now.

I understand. A good blade costs an arm and a leg. Well I wish you luck in the future.

 

[Oni-Chan]

Wow, lots of good info in here. Thanks for sharing, this will help me as well.