Bulletproof backpacks

[Drac]

Moral of the story...live your life normally, not in constant fear of a tragedy. Not saying to walk with your head in the clouds, unaware of your surroundings, but a bullet-proof backpack...sorry, I don't walk around with a backpack on 24/7, so I'll save the $100+ and go about my daily business.

Mike

Well said Mike...

 

[Gordon Nore]

And as someone else mentioned... many schools won't allow kids to carry their backpacks around anyway - largely for reasons related to space; if every kid in the school where I teach carried their backpacks to every class, the hallway congestion would be even worse than it already is - so they come in in the morning, put their backpacks in their lockers, and leave them there until the end of school. At that point, it won't matter how much armor the pack has, or how well it works - because the kids won't have the packs with them.

Right on the money. I'm a middle school teacher. Kids at this level put backpacks and coats in their lockers in the morning and can only go back to their lockers at lunch hour or after school -- this is all for safety, to reduce trip hazards, etc. The other problem with backpacks is that they can be used to conceal things you don't want in a school to begin with.

Nowadays a lot of students over-pack their backpacks, which has raised concerns about back and spinal injuries. I don't know whether a really heavy pack is a great advantage under fire.

 

[Kacey]

I find it incredibly unlikely that a backpack like this would be where it was needed when it was needed; as I said before, many schools require students to leave their backpacks in their lockers all day... and every school shooting I can recall occurred during the school day, not at the beginning or end of the day when students would actually have their backpacks with them.

In addition, one of the reasons why school shootings make the news so widely is because they are, mercifully, so rare. The likelihood that a student will have such a backpack at the time it is needed is incredibly rare.

Students have enough to worry about already; giving a child or teen a bulletproof backpack seems certain to add to their worries, with an event that is unlikely to occur, and even less likely to occur when the student has the backpack - IMHO, the inventors, with the best of intentions, are giving the parents and students a false sense of security. Better, as others have said, to deal with the societal issues that lead to school shootings, than to dress our children in accessories intended to replace body armor... which, as I've said, I don't think will help anyway.

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, it looks like things aren't that different in the UK. Check this product out...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/...+protect+pupils+from+knife+attacks/article.do

Parents are sending children to school in stab-proof uniforms to guard against knife crime, it has emerged.

They are paying a firm which makes body armour to line blazers and jumpers with a stab-resistant material called Kevlar.

The precautions are aimed at protecting pupils from knife attacks as street crime spills over into schools.

A wave of stabbings involving teenagers includes the killing of promising footballer Kiyan Prince, who was knifed just yards from his school gates in north London.

 

[Kacey]

Well, it looks like things aren't that different in the UK. Check this product out...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/...+protect+pupils+from+knife+attacks/article.do

One of the people who commented on the article pointed out that the Kevlar is too thin to protect against stabbing, and I think that person is correct. It would help with slashing, but at a thickness appropriate to a jacket or shirt lining, it would be thin enough to be forced into a stab wound by the knife.

On the one hand, I understand why parents want these products - but on the other hand, I go back to what has been said before: it is better to work on the underlying issues leading to these concerns, than to armor children to send them to school or out to play.

From Calling All Angels by Train - look at the bolded portions of the lyrics:

I need a sign to let me know you’re here
All of these lines are being crossed over the atmosphere
I need to know that things are gonna look up
Cause I feel us drowning in a sea spilled from a cup
When there is no place safe and no safe place to put my head
When you can feel the world shake from the words that I said

And I’m calling all angels
And I’m calling all you angels

And I won’t give up if you don’t give up
I won’t give up if you don’t give up
I won’t give up if you don’t give up
I won’t give up if you don’t give up


I need a sign to let me know you’re here
Cause my TV set just keeps it all from being clear
I want a reason for the way things have to be
I need a hand to help build up some kind of hope inside of me

And I’m calling all angels
And I’m calling all you angels

When children have to play inside so they don’t disappear
While private eyes solve marriage lies cause we dont talk for years
And football teams are kissing queens and losing sight of having dreams
In a world where all we want is only what we want untill it’s ours

 

[Marginal]

Dads push bulletproof backpacks in schools

I saw this story recently. I'm not sure which concerns me more; that parents think their children need such things, or that the school district is considering not allowing them because they might be "threatening or offensive".

My main concern would be if that plate helps the backpack keep its shape after the kids put 3,000 books into them.

 

[Cruentus]

Dads push bulletproof backpacks in schools

I saw this story recently. I'm not sure which concerns me more; that parents think their children need such things, or that the school district is considering not allowing them because they might be "threatening or offensive".

Yea... Seriously.

Someone should let these moron "dads" know that there is no such thing as "bulletproof" material anyways, despite the commonly used term. Soft ballistic resistant materials especially like what they would put in police vests or (in this case) backpacks provide protection, but not a sure thing against all bullet or blade attacks. Not to mention the impracticality of the material being only on a backpack.

What's worse is that I would put my money on it that these "dads" have yet to enroll their kids in a practical self-defense program that stresses common sense and self-esteem, which would entail proactive parenting rather then just throwing money and a new gadget at a problem.

This is almost as dumb as those school districts way back when who payed sell-out self-defense instructors to waste class time teaching kids to throw pencils and rulers and crap at armed assailents in the event of an attack.

But hey, what the hell do I know? :lol:

 

[fireman00]

Do you take shots at the folks that buy or sell Volvos because of the car's inherent safe design or look to buy a car with side air bags?

In today's society why would it surprise anyone that folks are marketing a back pack with a bulletproof panel?

As far as it being a fear driven reaction I'll ask how many of us carry some form of self protection; Surefire Defender flashlight, pepper spray/ mace, pocket folder, small cal hand gun, cane or any other easy to use weapon or even have bought a cell phone to use "in an emergency"?

 

[Mr. E]

As far as it being a fear driven reaction I'll ask how many of us carry some form of self protection; Surefire Defender flashlight, pepper spray/ mace, pocket folder, small cal hand gun, cane or any other easy to use weapon or even have bought a cell phone to use "in an emergency"?

I can see your point. But most of us also go to the trouble of training so that we can use these items. It is not some sort of talism that keeps bad people away.

Unless someone goes through some sort of training- and I can't imagine many teenagers going through that, I do not see much use for this. The most use I can see for it is in protecting kids from someone who drives up behind them and tries to to shoot them in the back. I do not think many kids when faced with a shooting will be able to keep their mind straight enough to move this thing to thier front and use it like a sheild. If you train them, maybe. But that does not seem to be much of an option.

 

[CanuckMA]

I've seen the way my kids pack their bags. The amount of books alone is probably enough to stop a bullet. :biggrin:

 

[fireman00]

I can see your point. But most of us also go to the trouble of training so that we can use these items. It is not some sort of talism that keeps bad people away.

Unless someone goes through some sort of training- and I can't imagine many teenagers going through that, I do not see much use for this. The most use I can see for it is in protecting kids from someone who drives up behind them and tries to to shoot them in the back. I do not think many kids when faced with a shooting will be able to keep their mind straight enough to move this thing to thier front and use it like a sheild. If you train them, maybe. But that does not seem to be much of an option.

I'll agree with you 100% on that and unless there's some kind of stress, postioning and exit strategy training they would be useless.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Okay, I must be the oddball here.
I think the bulletproof backpacks are a good idea. Yes, it is pandering to the fears of paranoid parents, but the fear is there for a reason.
I have several police friends in my area and all of them tell me that they go to the middle and high schools around here for kids bringing guns to school often (almost always unloaded, but still).
Yep, it's paranoid, but reasonable.

AoG

 

[ArmorOfGod]

And on a related note, here is an article suggesting using textbooks as shields:

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/102006tswshootings.25c68a8.html

 

[Cruentus]

The problem isn't really the practicality (although highly questionable) of books or ballistic rated backpacks; the problem is the favoring of knee jerk reactions built on paranoia and a lack of understanding of violent encounters over logical and practical solutions. This reminds me of the good ol' days of the cold war where kids would practice hiding under desks in case of a nuclear attack...

As Upnorth mentioned, the probability of a school shooting is very low; disproportionately low in comparison to other safety hazards. This does not mean, however, that you don't disaster plan. Every school, for example, has a disaster plan for tornadoes, even though the probability of a school building being ravaged by a tornado is also low.

But that is just it; most of us don't have irrational fears of tornadoes. The news, the media pundents, and the politicians aren't ranting and raving about he next possible tornado attack that is going to the destroy lives and families of all in its wake. So, people tend to not be irrationally afraid of tornadoes, or the weather in particular, even though it can be dangerous at times. We use our resources to understand the weather and the risks, and we take the proper precautions if something like a tornado does hit our schools or homes.

Why can't we do that with terrorists threats in the schools? [keep in mind, "terrorism" isn't isolated to islamo-facist driven violence; I consider any school shooting like Columbine a terrorist act.] It is very simple to put a disaster plan in place if there is a threat that involves either exiting the building or barracading a door and staying in a room per the teachers discretion. Really, a practical solution that is PROPORTIONAL to the probability of the threat is very simple to put in place. And these simple, practical solutions are much more effective then the outrageous paranoia driven ideas that the news catches.

Ballistic backpacks are not practical or cost effective. Such an item will cost 100's of dollars, and the kid isn't going to be walking around with his backpack on all day for it to even be effective, and it won't cover most of the child's body. Granted, it up's the safety level a little, but only circumstantially. Considering that the child would have to have it on while running away and to only get shot in the back with a pistol (it will not stop a rifle round) and no where else, I just don't think it is a reasonable solution. Really, you might as well have your kid wear a vest to school if your going to go this route.

And yes, books can stop rounds to a degree. Nice article on the subject: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot31.htm

But... practical? Not really. If someone is in a room shooting, a kids best bet is to get the hell out of that room, not waste valuable time trying to fish a book from under a desk or elseware. Teaching a kid to try to deflect a bullet with a textbook or backpack like something out of a poorly choreographed action film would be laughable if people weren't serious about it. That isn't going to be a natural reaction for a trained adult human being, let alone a scared child. If someone is shooting in a room, and if you can't shoot back or beat his *** right there, YOUR going to run, plain and simple. And you should. And so should a child.

What will work for children is a simple, effective disaster plan that should be in place, but like tornado plans, not really given much thought once the plan is understood. There are much more important things that kids and parents should be worrying about otherwise...

C.

 

[Kacey]

What will work for children is a simple, effective disaster plan that should be in place, but like tornado plans, not really given much thought once the plan is understood. There are much more important things that kids and parents should be worrying about otherwise...

C.

Uh... what makes you think schools don't have disaster plans of the type you describe? I know the school I teach at does, just the same way we have tornado and fire drills.- in fact, we have 3 levels of lockdown, depending on the circumstances, and the location of the threat. The lowest level of lockdown involves locking the all the doors of the building and making sure the PE classes are inside rather than out on the athletic field or track - other than that, school goes on as usual. This usually occurs when there is a threat in the neighborhood - for example, last year there was a report of a hysterical woman with a gun wandering the neighborhood near the school which led to a level 1 lockdown (turned out to be a false report - at least, they never found anyone). Level 2 is somewhat more restrictive, and involves more verifiable threats or threats that approach the building more closely - in those drills, students are not allowed out of the classroom without a an adult, and classes do not change until the drill is over. Level 3 is a full lockdown, with students against interior walls (all our walls are cinder block) where they cannot be seen from the doorway or windows (if the room has any), the lights off, the doors locked, and everyone quiet.

And no... kids are not allowed out to get their backpacks from their lockers, bulletproof or otherwise, and they are not allowed to carry their backpacks to class anyway, as I said previously in this thread.

 

[Cruentus]

Uh... what makes you think schools don't have disaster plans of the type you describe? I know the school I teach at does, just the same way we have tornado and fire drills.

That's great to know that some districts are putting practical plans in place. Those solutions are far more practical then "bulletproof backpacks" and other ridiculesness. I haven't seen anything like that in the districts around me. Yet, where are the media reports of a job well done by any district when a good solution is put in place? It is much more fun for them to report on the silly impractical propositions then the good solutions that the schools can, and in some cases as you described, are doing...

 

[Makalakumu]

Yet, where are the media reports of a job well done by any district when a good solution is put in place? It is much more fun for them to report on the silly impractical propositions then the good solutions that the schools can, and in some cases as you described, are doing...

Got Fear?

 

[jks9199]

Most schools, public or private, today have some sort of lockdown procedure and plan which they do rehearse, just like a fire drill. Just like most police departments have developed and practiced "active shooter" responses.

The sad fact is that school shootings, while rare, do occur, and we've learned that what was once the accepted response to any similar situation of where you have an active, dynamic shooter in a contained environment like a school or office is inadequate. First responders used to hold the perimeter and wait for a SWAT/tactical unit to arrive. Today -- the first responders on the scene know how to team up, and have practical, rehearsed tactics for advancing on the shooter.

These backpacks? Inadequate and silly, in my opinion. For the minimal protection provided, they're just impractical. And, given lots of these backpacks the kids take home today anyway... They are carrying enough bulk in the books alone to provide pretty equivalent protection.

 

[morph4me]

It doesn't have to be practical or realistic, just has to make people feel better. I live near a nuclear power plant, there's an evacutation plan for the area surrounding it in the event of another Chernobyl. Not a viable plan, everybody seems to know it won't work, but it makes people feel better knowing it exists. How many women carry a can of self defense spray stuffed down in the bottom of their purses and feel better knowing they have it? Will they be able to get to it if they need it? Not likely, but they feel better, just like the people who have guns locked in a safe and separated from their ammunition, not worth a damn if they need it in a hurry, but they feel good knowing they have it. I guess it's alot easier for some people to think they're protected than to realize that safety is an illusion.