Built in safety "flaws"

[Kung Fu Wang]

I eould hate to be caught with that from our of the blue. That's not the type of surprises that I like. Lol

This is worse.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is worse.

Nice video. Yeah that one would suck too.

Golden rooster stands on one leg.

Same as these. The key move is the curve in the foot.

But not so much this

"Golden rooster stands on one leg" is captured, I press that leg straight down and use "Golden rooster stands on one leg" to seize his leg.

 

[JowGaWolf]

- In training, you want to protect your training partner.
- In fighting, you want to hurt/kill your enemy.

On the hurt and kill part. The science of it is brutal. Double daggers point blades downward because the enemy's reaction is to pull their hand back from danger. The techniques take advantage of this so when you stab your enemy in the arm or hand, he will pull his hand away and help you cut it.

Stabbing like this. If the opponent stabs low, then turn blade down. The goal is to stab into the arm or use the blade to parry the stabbing arm outward. When your enemy retrieves his arm, he will slice it for you as he pulls back.

It's things like this that remind of the differences of how we train vs, what the goal is in application. All of the "gentle stuff" gets turned into sport and most of the time that stuff isn't gentle either.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is worse.

I have a smushy brain that would absorb most of that damage lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

No matter how one may want to color code MA, some MA trainings are trying to hurt/kill your opponent.

That's how I see it. It doesn't mean that we have to hurt each other, but yeah that's the end game. Train safely with partner so that one can be brutal to the enemy.

Training safely with my partner works well for me because I wouldn't want my training partner to be brutal to me.

 

[Badhabits]

I'm on board with the idea of parts of MA training ultimately being for violence. The history of karate has had so many changes made to it over the years. The apparent shift from a practical self defense training system to more character building/physical education and the changes made to facilitate that while good in many many ways has really " defanged " a lot of what's being taught out there. Well and fine if fun/fitness etc is what you want, but for those of us interested in the functional self defense side of it, it can result in having to wade through a lot of uh...less than practical ideas, training methods and techniques to find the good stuff. When I'm talking about safety flaws, that's some of it. Not just safety of training partners but the art itself being made into something "safer", less dangerous. I believe karate was meant to be a system geared towards specifically NOT having to engage in an actual fight when defending ones self. Quick, effective and it's over.
I work in the skilled trades so my hours are long and it'll be awhile before I'll be able to respond to the thread. Again, thanks to everyone who's chimed on.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Dirty dog the arc hand is a good example. I was taught a hand formation for training, the safe version, and a different formation for intentionally damaging the bone there.

If you're talking about the hyoid, there IS no safe way to strike it. An 8 year old could easily generate enough impact top fracture that bone.
The safer version changes the angle and target of the strike.

The different hand formations are certainly interesting. A ridgehand can surely do some damage, but the same general strike with the thumb knuckle instead of the meaty part below the index finger could potentially have more effect.

I'm not sure what you're describing. If you're doing a ridgehand that impacts with the fingers, you're going to break your fingers. A ridgehand strike should impact with the thumb. Specifically, the distal phalange is curled under the palm, and the impact is on the proximal phalange.

This strike can also be done by curling the entire thumb under and striking with the metacarpal. There is no real difference in impact.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill what you said about tenseness at the point of impact- that's specifically what I'm wondering about- is it really necessary if skeletal alignment and structure is really good. The better our structure, the less muscle we need to use (my current understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong)

It is really necessary to be tense at the point of impact, in my opinion.

 

[marvin8]

I've recently been trying to pick out the "safety flaws" in training and specific techniques. Example would be when learning/practicing a throw and your instructor tells you NOT to perform the throw a certain way as you will injure your partner on their way down. In reality that's the way it should be done if your aim is to injure someone.

How often will you practice throwing and injuring your partners by smashing their face into the ground? A kick to the groin or eye gouge to the face can be countered. If you can train setting up and landing kicks to the inner thigh or jabs to the face, then you can likely land a groin kick or eye gouge.

Aiming to use lethal force and causing great bodily harm may have legal consequences (e.g., lose right to self-defense).

Hitting with a clenched fist vs loose fist with good bone alignment is another one I've been playing with on the makiwara.

Relaxing while punching is important. However on impact, there should some tension in your structure "in order to take out any energy leaks."

Perform a throw one way, you get a bodyslam. Move your foot over a little to pin the other person's foot, change the angle of the drop and get a different result with the same throw. Just really neat stuff. I trained under a fellow awhile back that knew how to do some just really nasty things with throws. Stuff that would injure you before you hit ground. Real eye opener there.

Set up and mechanics for throws can be similar for street or competition. Although, target landings can be different head or back.

https://imgur.com/FCdMhn7

As mentioned in the timing and action/reaction principles, a possible problem is time. After recognizing a weakness in a position, you need to get into position to attack—before the opponent moves. Creating an opponent's weak position can give you more control and time. A stand up grappling example...

"Creating a weak position: I use foot sweep to make my partner take a reaction step back. As my partner takes a recovery step, I step and pull him into the line of attack using his momentum. This blends and disguises my actions. I take my second step while my partner's foot lands and throw him with seoi nage."

https://imgur.com/IzmmN07

 

[Badhabits]

Dirt Dog I aim north of the hyoid when using the arc hand in practice, but the other hand formation has three fingers curled in like a fist. Even if the webbing between thumb and index finger goes north the knuckles of the curled fingers still hit the bone. Drawback is your index finger doesn't have the support of those fingers against it. Honestly can't say if the trade off is worth it......
The ridgehand- I tried to attach a photo here of the other hand formation but it says the file is too large Basically the four fingers are folded under at the middle knuckle and pad of thumb is pressed against the side of the index finger with the knuckle closest to the thumb nail pointed out and being the striking surface. It travels the same path as the ridgehand. Other than not hitting your training partner with the tip of a knuckle, is the there an advantage to the ridgehand over the other formation?

 

[Badhabits]

Marvin8 I hear you on the legal consequences. That aside I think I'd have a hard time bringing myself to throw someone on their face like the lady in that video you posted....that was brutal!
When you say take out any energy leaks are you meaning our joints acting as shock absorbers, weak points in our structure having some give, that type of thing?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Dirt Dog I aim north of the hyoid when using the arc hand in practice,

Not really any safer. The cartilage rings in the trachea are not any stronger than the hyoid. There is no safe way to strike the front of the throat.

but the other hand formation has three fingers curled in like a fist. Even if the webbing between thumb and index finger goes north the knuckles of the curled fingers still hit the bone. Drawback is your index finger doesn't have the support of those fingers against it. Honestly can't say if the trade off is worth it......

If it's targeting the throat, I don't really care what hand position you use. It's dangerous.

The ridgehand- I tried to attach a photo here of the other hand formation but it says the file is too large Basically the four fingers are folded under at the middle knuckle and pad of thumb is pressed against the side of the index finger with the knuckle closest to the thumb nail pointed out and being the striking surface. It travels the same path as the ridgehand. Other than not hitting your training partner with the tip of a knuckle, is the there an advantage to the ridgehand over the other formation?

I can see that as a variant. It feels awkward to me, but it does support the thumb. I'd be more likely to simply make a fist with the thumb knuckle sticking out, but supported by the first. None of the variants is going to be any safer unless you target a less lethal area.

 

[Badhabits]

When I say north it's going at a slight upward angle, the thumb and index fingers end up on other side of the back of the jaw. Sorry, I need to learn how to articulate better here.
The ridgehand alternative was pretty darn awkward for me for awhile. It caused a lot of muscular tension in my foreman until it became more natural with practice.

 

[Badhabits]

Given the choice I'd use the ridgehand vs the alt formation for the throat, ridgehand would have a better chance of slipping in there. Targeting the temple, side of neck or ribs I'm probably not using the ridgehand.

 

[marvin8]

When you say take out any energy leaks are you meaning our joints acting as shock absorbers, weak points in our structure having some give, that type of thing?

Yes. Excerpt from "Evidence Of A Double Peak In Muscle activation To Enhance Strike Speed And Force: An Example With Elite Mixed Martial Arts Fighters:"

Stuart McGill said:

"Optimizing strike force and reducing the time taken for the hand or foot to reach the opponent requires paradoxical muscle variables. On one hand, muscle force propels the hand or foot, yet on the other, corresponding muscle stiffness slows the motion, suggesting that rapid relaxation may be helpful. Furthermore, upon contact, increasing the effective mass with muscle stiffness enhances the strike force. This appears to be accomplished by elite MMA athletes by producing a ‘‘double pulse” in some of their muscles. In this way, elite strike performance may be determined by a contraction-relaxation-contraction cycle. This suggests it may be fruitful to train rapid rate of relaxation together with rapid rate of contraction to enhance this form of speed strength."

 

[marvin8]

Marvin8 I hear you on the legal consequences. That aside I think I'd have a hard time bringing myself to throw someone on their face like the lady in that video you posted....that was brutal!

Punches and throws in a fist fight are normally not considered lethal force without other aggravating factors. However in a fist fight, putting an attacker in a controlling position then breaking their joint may be considered escalation of force from non-deadly to deadly force.

Excerpt from "Proper Force:"

For example, you can use kicks, punches, throws or blocks to create distance and get away from an assailant. You can also use pressure points, joint locks or chokes to disable or control an attacker.

 

[HighKick]

Marvin8 I hear you on the legal consequences. That aside I think I'd have a hard time bringing myself to throw someone on their face like the lady in that video you posted....that was brutal!
When you say take out any energy leaks are you meaning our joints acting as shock absorbers, weak points in our structure having some give, that type of thing?

Assessing the situational environment, I would say she was fully within her rights to apply the technique.